Dear BM LLC

[unjonharley]

This thread has brought up a question..

Just how much will the survey have to do with the on going scrubbing?

I do not theme camp, no big art, small Mv art, single camper and other low output.

I am unable to commit to a timed volunteer.. There was not a space for what little I do..

bump

[Nipple]

This thread has brought up a question..

Just how much will the survey have to do with the on going scrubbing?

I do not theme camp, no big art, small Mv art, single camper and other low output.

I am unable to commit to a timed volunteer.. There was not a space for what little I do..

bump

I would assume the survey has nothing to do with the scrubbing.

The scrubbing has to do with duplicate entries, and fraud based entries.

[Savannah]

Hi Unjon. The survey has no effect on the scrubbing of scalpers or the awarding of tickets, as stated by the LLC (and also because they're also aware of the fact that people could reply inaccurately; survey answers are by the honor system, after all).

It's just to get an idea of participation and history of ticket buyers, changes in ticket buying behavior, etc. There's a census every year, but it doesn't usually ask about tickets/ticket-buying behavior.

[pinemom]

Funny, I was hoping that this would be a small thread on just some constructive ways to do the tix if the lottery bombs? I mean BM was started by 3 people, and it takes so many nowadays to pull it off. Its about idea's gang. Thats what TTITD is all about. Idea's to make it work.

Ya, I could have posted on one of the hundreds of balk balk threads. But man, I just havent been coming on eplaya as much,well, cause we arnt doing a theme camp this yr. and because there is more political stuff on here then Ive ever seen. EVER. (almost more then TV!)

And I didnt know Lemurs liked to climb Pinetree's?

[Risky]

A few administrative changes is not enough to talk me out of attending.
The old system did not allow us know what we would pay.
It would kick you out of queue and you would now be 15,000th in line.

Tickets didn't sell out until July last year, and most of those who are working to bring BM some interactivity usually have their shit tight by July.

It has always been a risk, and anyone can what-if themselves right out of it.
What if your Theme Camp is not accepted nor given placement?
The risk of so much possibly going wrong is some of the fun of BM.
The changes over the years of ensuring there is no risk has been the subject of many disgruntled threads here.

I am curious how many threads there will be in July by those panicking that they are unable to get a ticket.
It's a little early to come up with solutions to a problem not yet clearly defined.
Let's see how it goes.

[Minxy]

I'm not sure if the community moved on or the community just got tired of being ridiculed for expressing their distaste of, and fears about the new system.

Word. Not just ridiculed; insulted, condescended to and treated inappropriately in some cases.

[lemur]

when we have our tempers a' flarin.. or our emotions/feelings/wishes/dreams come into question.. we may post heartfelt stuff that means a lot to us, stuff that comes right from the core of our being.. something we feel is not just 'right' but what we FEEL is 'right'.. a thing that cant really be questioned, our feelings... . it may be an important subject we feel strongly about, a huge part of our lives.. in times when we post this kind of stuff, and care about this stuff enough to post about it.. we rarely want to be disagreed with or told 'the facts' ..we want to be told 'ya kno! youre right..' or hugged.. or consoled..

we dont want to be told "ya know, dont worry.. actually, the world ISN'T flat and your husband didn't just fall off the edge of the earth..." it might be the truth.. but it won't make that yearning and that pain/feeling/emotion go away..

maybe there are better times for that kind of discourse, maybe there are better places...

this is happening in our community right now, and also in the past whenever these issues we all care so deeply about come up..

it is hard for us not to feel dismissed, condescended, patronized, insulted, or all sorts of other things when what we really want is someone to recognize that our feelings/emotions/reactions arent out of the ordinary, they arent just reactionary.. they do have purpose and a reality.. they do exist and are right to exist..

a problem comes about when a couple/group/community/nation/culture has an issue that is divided in opinion in some way, where a consensus hasnt been reached.. because the people on one side of the fence have feelings and emotions that are cared about just as much as the ones on the other side of the fence.. and neither side can truly devalue the feeling and emotion of the other..

while some may do things that actually intend to condescend/mock/dismiss/patronize/insult/mistreat.. it is just as easy for one who didnt intend to do any of these to create the same feelings.. as this is something we care deeply about sometimes any word of advice, any comment that isnt one that validates the rightness in our feelings and emotions can make us feel hurt to the core..

we cannot easily solve that problem without segregating ourselves.. even the most well intended of us can hurt and make another feel their feelings dont matter, or arent relevant.. it is easy to do even when youre treading with the most extreme care..

...when a wound is fresh even the best attempts to heal it can hurt.

"If I wished to shake this tree with my hands, I should not be able to do so. But the wind, which we do not see, troubles and bends it as it lists.

We are worst bent and troubled by invisible hands."

[theCryptofishist]

I've been mulling over this, myself, and I have to say that the mods--especially trilo and Savannah--are doing really well at patiently re-explaining the facts in multiple threads. Very nicely for people not getting paid, and with as much stake as any of hte rest of us in the ticketing process. As for us denizens, well, lemur explained a major point of stress there. I'd add in that the constant flood of new people saying the exact old thing is going to wear on anyone. I'd also like to point out that the people who come in here politely and with an open mind, asking questions and listening to the answers, tend to get a lot less flak than the people who are selling some grand (and unworkable) scheme.
I do my best, but sometimes I fuck up.

[alt12]

I've been mulling over this, myself, and I have to say that the mods--especially trilo and Savannah--are doing really well at patiently re-explaining the facts in multiple threads. Very nicely for people not getting paid, and with as much stake as any of hte rest of us in the ticketing process. As for us denizens, well, lemur explained a major point of stress there. I'd add in that the constant flood of new people saying the exact old thing is going to wear on anyone. I'd also like to point out that the people who come in here politely and with an open mind, asking questions and listening to the answers, tend to get a lot less flak than the people who are selling some grand (and unworkable) scheme.
I do my best, but sometimes I fuck up.

I agree they are doing a great job of explaining and yet find the "everything is fine" motto irritating. Everything is obviously not fine. I do appreciate lemur explaining some of the finer technical points and rationale regarding the lottery. I still think it was huge a mistake and this drawn out process negatively impacts many many people and creates tremendous and unnecessary uncertainty. That being said, its is clear that the sell-out phenomenon changes everything and puts BM squarely in the same camp as Coachella, Glastobury (hello you have to register over a year in advance for a ticket!) and other large/popular global events with more demand than supply. That is unfortunate but it is the fact at hand. I still detest this lottery system I have to say. Drawing this whole process out until March or May or who knows makes it very difficult to plan....

[gibson_]

I actually don't mind these threads at all.

In fact, I hope the forum stays clogged with threads exactly like this until the org realizes their mistake.

There is no doubt in my mind that I'll make it home this year come hell, high water, or mayan apocalypse, I'll be there.

But don't be confused, this completely absurd ticketing practice is a mistake that needs to be corrected. *Not* having the ticketing forum covered in posts exactly like this gives a false feeling that the community is okay with this stupid lottery.

I'll get home *despite* this obnoxious fuckery. That doesn't mean we should stop talking about how completely broken it is.

[trilobyte]

For what it's worth, I don't think everything will be fine for everyone. Not at all. But for those who plan and are resourceful, I have no doubts there will be plenty of opportunity. I don't even think all my campmates are participating in the main sale, but I'm sure that those who decide to go will figure something out and make their ticket connection. The same is true for everyone else out there.

As a person who's had quite a bit of experience with change management, the freakout posts are to be expected. By nature, people tend to resist change. Some people get so worked up and freaked out over the idea of change that they completely freak out and do silly things like deem that a system they haven't even used yet has already failed. It's okay though - some people just need to vent, while others may have questions that I or others can help try and answer.

[gibson_]

Uhh, Trilo, one correction. Most of us *have* used the system already, and have already been informed of its failure.

(In the last JRS)

[Rice]

Uhh, Trilo, one correction. Most of us *have* used the system already, and have already been informed of its failure.

(In the last JRS)

So, you didn't get a ticket? I thought that the draw was not happening for a couple of days.

[A Jester]

Just a quick note to let you know that this new lottery is really going to effect the actual amount of regular attendee's coming home.
This has given alot of people to excuse to not go based on fear of not getting one.(BECAUSE 75% of us cant afford to bid on a ticket till we actually get our income tax back)!!(still 15-60 days away from TODAY!)

I try not to be mean/sarcastic/snippy/etc... but you're saying that 75% of the people who were there last year couldn't afford to buy one ticket? So, your assumption is that 25% of last years attendees (plus some scalpers, right?) registered for more than 40,000 tickets?

[Rice]

$10 per week, 52 weeks, therefore $520.

That translates to $20 every two weeks.

A slightly motivated person could save that little per week. Then you would not be reliant on anyone to make your burn happen...

Just sayin.

[pink]

$10 per week, 52 weeks, therefore $520.

That translates to $20 every two weeks.

A slightly motivated person could save that little per week. Then you would not be reliant on anyone to make your burn happen...

Just sayin.

Including Uncle Sam....

Actually, if you fixed your withholding so you didn't get that big refund, you could put that $20 per week away.

But that would required actual fiscal planning...

[teardropper]

It's interesting... I'm having a Burnal Equinox party, which should be good for the first week of March. Seems folks are having trouble committing even to THAT...

Until the last month or so, I was just on schedule, getting lights, liquor, mix, doing my electric trike project -- getting ready. But, you know, there are some fairly big expenses, stuff I might use, but most surely would use in BRC, that I have put off. What I bring to the playa is just for me. My little gift to BRC. I bought it, bring it, set it up, store it, basically run it... no camp or other investors. It's true. How could anyone do a larger theme camp, the time, the money, the effort, if you thought you weren't going to get to go...?

We'll have our party. Some of us, maybe all of us, will have our tickets. But we'll have our party...

[organizedchaos]

Trilobyte...

As an everyday eplaya lurker i really appreciate and respect your posts on here. But unfortunately the one thing I think we're glazing over is the fact that when the BMORG said the word 'lottery' that in and of itself encouraged people to double dip and sign up for more tickets. The 'lottery' artificially inflated the number of tickets requested. So although you're saying we would have been screwed anyway the fact remains that you, me, BMORG and anyone else don't really know how many people were actually signing up for tickets and not overestimating. Without the word lottery, its safe to say that the overall number of ticket requests would not be as high as it is now.

[pinemom]

$10 per week, 52 weeks, therefore $520.

That translates to $20 every two weeks.

A slightly motivated person could save that little per week. Then you would not be reliant on anyone to make your burn happen...

Just sayin.

Including Uncle Sam....

Actually, if you fixed your withholding so you didn't get that big refund, you could put that $20 per week away.

But that would required actual fiscal planning...

This is a awesome idea! IF THEY FRIGGIN DID THE LOTTERY AFTER TAXES CAME BACK to us!

Sorry, Ive got the Booby bar fan page & Terminal city & Raiders over on fb and Im watching my burner family and friends come in with their NO NOTE pinned to their bare chests, blood trickling...this hurts so bad. So why the hell did we have to find Utopia, why couldnt we just have stayed a NORMAL unhappy person in default.

[Rice]

$10 per week, 52 weeks, therefore $520.

That translates to $20 every two weeks.

A slightly motivated person could save that little per week. Then you would not be reliant on anyone to make your burn happen...

Just sayin.

Including Uncle Sam....

Actually, if you fixed your withholding so you didn't get that big refund, you could put that $20 per week away.

But that would required actual fiscal planning...

This is a awesome idea! IF THEY FRIGGIN DID THE LOTTERY AFTER TAXES CAME BACK to us!

Sorry, Ive got the Booby bar fan page & Terminal city & Raiders over on fb and Im watching my burner family and friends come in with their NO NOTE pinned to their bare chests, blood trickling...this hurts so bad. So why the hell did we have to find Utopia, why couldnt we just have stayed a NORMAL unhappy person in default.

What does stashing $10 a week have to do with your tax return?? Just put $10 cash into a tin every week. Vola $520. No tax return. Could even say "Self-reliant"?

[pinemom]

Ya, if they had told 50,000 people that 10 months ago!

[pterribilini]

I have a few points to make here. First let me say I have never worried about or had a problem with getting tickets to BRC before. I have gotten them without problems each year I wanted to go, and only once was it on the day sales opened.

Second, the Org should have forseen what would happen when they created the lottery system and the sense of scarcity that goes along with it. Whether they would have sold 40,000 tickets in two days the old way this year or not, they were guaranteed to sell them this way, along with recreating the cluster f**k they have on opening day of the main sale every other year for the last 10,000 tickets. I'm sorry for saying so, but that means those last tickets will go to the Burners with the fastest phone connections, just like the Tier 1 tickets do.

Point three is that this system was set up with failure in mind, obviously. They knew people were signing up multiple times under multiple names, and the official ticket resale system may work, but I have lost a lot of faith in the powers that be to create any ticket related system that is functional.

My last point is the one that I expect to be the most controversial. I have camped with a very large group for the past four years, and very few of the people I camp with who purchase Tier 1 tickets actually can't afford higher tiers. The tier system in itself creates a huge scarcity issue because at heart, most of us want to get the best deal we can. Even if the reason is so that we can spend the extra money on something for the Burn, we still buy the cheapest tickets available whenever our turn comes up. So I have a solution. Keep the scholarship tickets--if someone really can't afford Tier 2, they should be able to get one. Keep the holiday presale tickets and keep them available at the higher rate--if you want early tickets you should have to pay for the privilege. All other tickets go up for open sale at the same time at what was formerly the Tier 2 rate. This will remove the feeling that Burners have to jam the phone lines the second the Main Sale opens--that feeling we have to get tickets RIGHT NOW. And for those who will say this makes Burning Man unaffordable to some, let me point out that if any vacation is more than a person can afford, maybe they ought to check their priorities.

In the meantime, my husband and I will be waiting for the March sale and hoping we get lucky then, while working on a large scale art piece that may very likely go to the playa without us.

[imalsoknownas]

"Scarcity's a bitch. You'd have been 10 times more screwed if it was just done as a first come, first serve open sale like last year."

BULLSHIT. Last year I didn't even know if I was gonna attend until the last minute. July rolled around and I still got a ticket. Bmorg generated the scarcity and the hysteria to go along with it.

[thisisthatwhichis]

Just a quick note to let you know that this new lottery is really going to effect the actual amount of regular attendee's coming home.
This has given alot of people to excuse to not go based on fear of not getting one.(BECAUSE 75% of us cant afford to bid on a ticket till we actually get our income tax back)!!(still 15-60 days away from TODAY!)

I try not to be mean/sarcastic/snippy/etc... but you're saying that 75% of the people who were there last year couldn't afford to buy one ticket? So, your assumption is that 25% of last years attendees (plus some scalpers, right?) registered for more than 40,000 tickets?

Would you like your Crow served with a fine 2002 Shiraz?........ Even many of the 75% that can't really afford it right now got turned away.........

But wait!!!... all of the "positive energy" people said .... "Don't worry!!!".... Yea, This Lottery was a great idea. Sorry, but I also saw this comming. And I'm sorry but the March FCFS tickets at 4 per person will sell out in a few hours......

[BMG]

Scarcity's a bitch. You'd have been 10 times more screwed if it was just done as a first come, first serve open sale like last year.

Hey Trilo, that is a blanket statement.
Might you be so kind as to fill us into the reasoning and or facts that lead you to say that?
Would be greatly appreciated, might even change peoples perspectives, mine included.
I am inclined to disagree with that statement as it stands.

[test4echo_2112]

Hellz, yeah. Give me a free Golden Ticket and I'll toe the company line like the jackasses above.

How's this sound ... Burning Man is great. Burning Man solves all problems. It's the Participants' fault they were not picked in the Lottery. Calm down. Chill out. Everything will be ok. Don't worry. Be Happy. We've got your back. Everything is fair. There are still very, very, very, very, very, very cheap $390 tickets available. It's a STEP up and not a STEP on. Let the experiment play out. Welcome home.

I'll pick up my free ticket at will call, thankyouverymuch.

[forge]

"Scarcity's a bitch. You'd have been 10 times more screwed if it was just done as a first come, first serve open sale like last year."

BULLSHIT. Last year I didn't even know if I was gonna attend until the last minute. July rolled around and I still got a ticket. Bmorg generated the scarcity and the hysteria to go along with it.

I agree. Last year's sellout was the spark. The lottery system was the fire. Yes there is scarcity but this fear of can i get a ticket was exacerbated by this lottery system.

[A Jester]

Just a quick note to let you know that this new lottery is really going to effect the actual amount of regular attendee's coming home.
This has given alot of people to excuse to not go based on fear of not getting one.(BECAUSE 75% of us cant afford to bid on a ticket till we actually get our income tax back)!!(still 15-60 days away from TODAY!)

I try not to be mean/sarcastic/snippy/etc... but you're saying that 75% of the people who were there last year couldn't afford to buy one ticket? So, your assumption is that 25% of last years attendees (plus some scalpers, right?) registered for more than 40,000 tickets?

Would you like your Crow served with a fine 2002 Shiraz?........ Even many of the 75% that can't really afford it right now got turned away.........

But wait!!!... all of the "positive energy" people said .... "Don't worry!!!".... Yea, This Lottery was a great idea. Sorry, but I also saw this comming. And I'm sorry but the March FCFS tickets at 4 per person will sell out in a few hours......

?


last year there were 53k attendees, right?
53k x .25 (meaning 75% of people who attended last year couldn't register for tickets) = 13,500

if only 13,500 people had registered, they would have all gotten tickets. My vague, none of us knows what we are talking about, made up number is that about 50% of people didn't get tickets.

There were 40k tickets, average registration was for 1.7 tickets. That means 24,500 registrants got their tickets. So, if half of the people didn't get their tickets that means 49k people registered. That's more than 25% of last years attendees.

If FCFS sales only last a few hours, aren't you super glad they did a lottery?

And, for the record, I'd like my crow served with a stout beer.

[teardropper]

Okay. I didn't make the lottery. So right now I don't have a ticket. We don't have a ticket. I can probably scrounge one up, that's probably what I'll do. Some of you who scour each word on this forum are probably thinking oh no not again. Well I haven't been following this since November. I haven't read every word. I've wanted to improve my little one-man theme camp. It is a work in progress. I have a fair amount invested in it, and expected to invest a bit more this year. A couple new standup bar tables, a camo net sunshade for beside the bowling alley, more lights, of course, maybe even a
sign that's writable so I can announce drink specials. These are some of the things I wanted to do, part of my work in progress. But even if I get a ticket I don't know how much more time, effort, money, I'm going to spend on this. Not to mention the pair of electric trikes I was building. This is not be Bmorg's fault. As a matter fact, I think they probably have done a lot to discourage scalping. And it's not like they have a big advertising budget designed to bring in more people. No, we've done that. It's that lonely spot in the events evolution. It's gotten big. And successful. For me, and people like me who bring small camps, placements, art, maybe even some of the larger camps, Will we survive? not knowing until March, or later, whether we will even be going. And then have to do the same thing next year. I think it will diminish some of the camps. And that beautiful city, the one that Bmorg only provides infrastructure for, will be different. Will BRC be changed? Or is the shine just off MY apple? Call me whiny if you must, I prefer to think of it is introspective.

[pinemom]

I will put my money where my mouth is, if BM.LLC.org ticketing department needs me to volunteer to help sort through REGISTRANT POST CARD RESPONSE for the 2013 BM.
I will volunteer my ass to sit and data entry all addresses and estimated numbers of tickets each house hold needs. Im semi-retired, so give me a date when you need me, and for how long. (Pretty sure I could find some centrally located couches to crash on.)

I want to be part of the solution not the problem.

I want to go to my family reunion.

I want to re-energize from the unconditional love I give and receive.

I want to build a city.


Yup, see all those wants I tried to refrain from using the "NEED" word, as sure, we all can stay in defaultia and do what we do for the whole 51 weeks..but I dont WANT to.

I really do appreciate everyone, Im so sorry for this misfortune to bring out the worst in all of us.....No one can blame each other, really with a straight face? come on...We are all hurting inside over it, love ya brotha and sister, they really are on your side!!!

Terrible terrible mistake happened. We all make mistakes,its really the mistakes we make that make us more intelligent, because then we learn what not to do!

Please everyone, please stop beating each other up...Hopefully we will have Thunderdome to do that shit in.