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sacramentogames
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Post by sacramentogames » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:30 pm

thirt33n wrote:Kevin-
I have not been negative to your idea and have been supportive of your use of Eric.
That being said, it is still strange that you don't understand symbolically what it means when someone says they've been to Burning Man but they don't know what MOOP is.
It is like saying you've been to New York City but aren't familiar with the Empire State Building. It means, simply, that you've either been hit on the head with a bowling pin, are almost totally oblivious...or more likely that you are lying.

It seems that you think MOOP is one little word in a huge book about Burning Man and that it's easy to "miss" it's definition.

It's just strange, buddy.

I hope you understand what I mean. You call it a "flub". ..it's an indicator of dishonesty in MY eyes.

still, good luck. I hope for the best.
Would photos of me at Burningman make you feel better? I will bring these with me when I meet with Eric.

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Post by Isotopia » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:37 pm

In short, the people most likely to be attracted to this offer won't be genuinely participating or contributing to the event; they will be passively CONSUMING the art and entertainment they expect the rest of us to provide.
Ding, ding, ding... here comes the little clue bus.

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Post by carousel » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:47 pm


Carousel-
Apparently you have missed points in this conversation that make it quite obvious that this "organizer" was preparing to introduce several new comers to this "world" that is Burning Man without even knowing what "MOOP" meant. I would have to assume that if he did not "remember" what MOOP meant that sharing the basic principles of BM with these new citizens of Black Rock City was also not very high on his list...meaning, IMO that he just may be "the blind leading the blind". It is these sorts of situations that have been happening every year that have diluted the essence that i so strongly felt in 2002(my first trip).
The essence will always remain, somewhere.
I wonder how many mardi gras beads are to be included in this huge gift booty that he mentions?

The most valid argument in this thread, to me, lies here and can be qualified as the "right" way to do it. Being PREPARED and being RESPONSIBLE for making sure those who you become the conduit for are also PREPARED. Prepared for all aspects from water and food and MOOP to Legal and "darkwads" and snapping photos of chicks tits without asking...simple etiquette and nuances that go with the root beliefs of years ago.

I have nothing against any of these people. I have nothing against the concept of this 'luxury package'.
Wow uh... hrm. Words in my mouth, you haz placed them :).

I wouldn't say that my response showed ignorance of any of the conversation, though I can understand your perspective. I deliberately left out mentioning the organizer of the trip, as I have no real comment or opinion one way or another about someone trying to make some money off of the back of Burning Man. I believe that topic is what you'd call a dead horse, one which I am uninterested in flogging at this time.

What you will find if you read my post again, is that I am talking about the assumptions of people who say that there is some element coming in to our community that is going to ruin it for everyone, that the event isn't what it used to be, or some other line of horse sh*t that makes us all out to be victims of an overwhelming tide of evil doers who are making Our Event in to something that isn't great.

thirt33n wrote: I have more against your principle scoffing attitude than any of the former.
..or maybe you weren't "scoffing" ..just "forgetting" that the principles are kind of important to this city.

I know this stuff has been going down for years. (i'm not bitching)I can't stop it...I am just glad Eric is "helping" because it may make ALL the difference in the world.
Well, I know you don't know me, but again I feel as though you might want to re-read what I said. I was specific about inclusion and community building in what I said, I never said anything about this gentleman's enterprise, his qualifications, or anything else. I specifically spoke about what we are or are not doing as a community impacts how the community works. I am not certain how I so upset your tea kettle as to have you assign these motivations to me, as mine are to point out that there is more we can do as a community to BE a community. I don't condone or endorse the services this person is offering, nor am I here to say that he shouldn't. He's clearly going to do what he is going to do, and arguing with someone on the internet that they should or shouldn't do something is as pointless as... well, arguing on the internet with anyone about anything.

We should focus on what makes us great, not what we theorize might diminish us magically by it's presence. WE make Burning Man great, and sometimes that means we have to let go of our expectations and go in with intention to community.

-Carousel

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Post by sacramentogames » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:55 pm

[quote="curiousgnate"]Ok the popcorns run out and I have to go to the bathroom.

My last questions. Have you Kevin ever been to burningman? If so when? If not why did you lie?[/quote]

My video of me on the playa is on youtube.

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Post by Zed the Mailman » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:06 pm

Kevin's been there and he's not a troll. These accusations do little to further the discussion.

While he's been there, I don't think he fully absorbed the generally perceived ethos of the event. There's nothing wrong with this. It took me a few years to come to my own understanding of what BM is and the value it has in my life. What we need to do is help him understand our viewpoint, become a real "owner" of the event and push this ethos on his clients.

It seems to me that Kevin went once. He had a great time. He didn't read every scrap on the web or even he survival guide. He didn't do his 2 hours of MOOP patrol. He filmed the titty parade. The typical transgression of a newb who didn't really understand what they were participating in. That's not a criminal offense. He thought it was another Rainbow Festival or something. A reasonable perception without experience.

He saw the Googlers or the Yahoos next door with their luxury setup and as an event planer he realized there's a good business opportunity. Nothing wrong with that. But he didn't realize that many of us who have embraced BM find these folks to be a liability to the event rather than an asset. And the people who facilitate and serve them even more distasteful.

He's come in here on his own to face the criticism in what appears to be an entirely honest attempt to mitigate the outrage, and he seems to have taken a humble tone respecting that there is information here that will help him not only be better received by the general population but also provide a better service to his clients. That's commendable.

If he's guilty of something it seems to be that he has a firm grasp on the potential market, but he doesn't really understand the event that he's providing it in. Let's help him.

What we need to help him understand is that attracting people who are too busy to have anything to offer the event, yet do seem to have enough that they'll do it in luxury we find offensive, as most of us don't live in luxury but do find the resources to contribute.

If he does attract these people and all they've got offer is money, lets make sure that all the money doesn't go into Kevin and his employees pockets, but instead creates something of value to all. He deserves something for his effort and risk, but he also owes us something.
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Post by thirt33n » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:12 pm

sacgames-
so, you understand that your "flub" was more than just a "flub". ?
if so, great. again and as always, sincerely, good luck.

carousel-
what you see as a "argument" i see as making points.

i hope to share my opinion. Kevin seems to be taking opinions in. I would not call that an argument.

not meaning to put words in your mouth. my opinion is that you left out the most important part of this issue. ..you've also called it a dead horse.

the stance you took in your original post, to me, is just as dead of a horse.

of course,...i'd still give you ALL a hug cuz that's the bad ass way i roll. :)
blow.

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Post by thirt33n » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:15 pm

Zed

well said, Zed.

:)
blow.

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Post by LLQchasm » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:47 pm

Hey...

I saw a video of skydivers "dropping in" on BM. Who set up their camps? Did they become sparkle pony's? Is Kevin setting up these special packages for skydivers? When they land near center camp, are they immediately sent outside to the greeters to hand over their tickets?

Just wondering...

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Post by LLQchasm » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:50 pm

Isotopia wrote:
In short, the people most likely to be attracted to this offer won't be genuinely participating or contributing to the event; they will be passively CONSUMING the art and entertainment they expect the rest of us to provide.
Ding, ding, ding... here comes the little clue bus.
2012's theme should be "welcome to defaultia", end of BM as you know it.

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Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:55 pm

LLQchasm wrote:Hey...

I saw a video of skydivers "dropping in" on BM. Who set up their camps? Did they become sparkle pony's? Is Kevin setting up these special packages for skydivers? When they land near center camp, are they immediately sent outside to the greeters to hand over their tickets?

Just wondering...
Those skydivers are burners.. They fly out of Black Rock City Airport..It's a gift to me to see them in action..

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Post by LLQchasm » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:58 pm

unjonharley wrote:
LLQchasm wrote:Hey...

I saw a video of skydivers "dropping in" on BM. Who set up their camps? Did they become sparkle pony's? Is Kevin setting up these special packages for skydivers? When they land near center camp, are they immediately sent outside to the greeters to hand over their tickets?

Just wondering...
Those skydivers are burners.. They fly out of Black Rock City Airport..It's a gift to me to see them in action..
Yes. But what do you do to skydive into the event? How is it set up? How can I set up my camp without having to leave so I can skydive in?

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Post by gaminwench » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:02 pm

You come in, set up your camp, go out to the airport, get in the plane, go up, then skydive...
It's been posted here that you must have 100 jumps under your belt before you can jump BRC...
I believe 'Burning Sky' is the contact to make jumping arrangements...

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Re: burningman

Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:05 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote: Reading the past 3 pages this AM, something was tickling the back of my mind. I had to go back and check, but in playing catch-up, I thought I saw something, and I did find it, with buku references to the same type of enterprise.....
sacramentogames wrote:... When I do my proposals I figure X many dollars for profit in the work I do and I also figure a percentage for unforeseen costs. I am thinking that all that is left from unforeseen costs should go to a fund to provide for future theme camps.

Any thoughts?
The way you wrote this spells it out pretty succinctly - this is a profit-oriented business selling the burning man experience using their name, images, etc.

I am not condemning enterpreneurism at all - every one has a right to be an entepreneur. But the llc guards IT'S rights very jealously (try to sell a photo you took at llc and you get them on your but legally tout suite)... I can't begin to imagine how they would react to someone touting a for-profit enterprise using their property (name, images, permits from BLM, etc.) but unless you have an MOU drafted between your company and theirs, you MAY want to get your corporate lawyer to contact them to work something out. And do it sooner rather than later.

I'm not giving you legal advice, but I have seen lesser profit motives burned rather quite expensively for this - some even innocently - and this is so well published there's no way someone could claim "innocence".

I used to jokingly call it "steppping on Larry Harvey's feet with hob nailed boots, and expecting him not to react"...

How is what he is doing much different than what the ticket scalpers do? Just wondering.

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Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:08 pm

LLQchasm wrote:
Yes. But what do you do to skydive into the event? How is it set up? How can I set up my camp without having to leave so I can skydive in?
Black Rock City is Burning Man.. The airport is in BRC..

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Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:09 pm

Zed, I agree with all of your post except that I don't think he OWES "US" anything.

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Post by sacramentogames » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:10 pm

Zed the Mailman wrote:Kevin's been there and he's not a troll. These accusations do little to further the discussion.

While he's been there, I don't think he fully absorbed the generally perceived ethos of the event. There's nothing wrong with this. It took me a few years to come to my own understanding of what BM is and the value it has in my life. What we need to do is help him understand our viewpoint, become a real "owner" of the event and push this ethos on his clients.

It seems to me that Kevin went once. He had a great time. He didn't read every scrap on the web or even he survival guide. He didn't do his 2 hours of MOOP patrol. He filmed the titty parade. The typical transgression of a newb who didn't really understand what they were participating in. That's not a criminal offense. He thought it was another Rainbow Festival or something. A reasonable perception without experience.

He saw the Googlers or the Yahoos next door with their luxury setup and as an event planer he realized there's a good business opportunity. Nothing wrong with that. But he didn't realize that many of us who have embraced BM find these folks to be a liability to the event rather than an asset. And the people who facilitate and serve them even more distasteful.

He's come in here on his own to face the criticism in what appears to be an entirely honest attempt to mitigate the outrage, and he seems to have taken a humble tone respecting that there is information here that will help him not only be better received by the general population but also provide a better service to his clients. That's commendable.

If he's guilty of something it seems to be that he has a firm grasp on the potential market, but he doesn't really understand the event that he's providing it in. Let's help him.

What we need to help him understand is that attracting people who are too busy to have anything to offer the event, yet do seem to have enough that they'll do it in luxury we find offensive, as most of us don't live in luxury but do find the resources to contribute.

If he does attract these people and all they've got offer is money, lets make sure that all the money doesn't go into Kevin and his employees pockets, but instead creates something of value to all. He deserves something for his effort and risk, but he also owes us something.
Thank you for the comment. Very well said. I am not claiming to be a better burner than anyone else. As for the girls that are in the pics with me with no tops on, that is my wife with a half dozen of our friends. It would be rude to take those pics without asking however those are pics of my friends. The girls that I bring with me tend to go topless.

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Post by LLQchasm » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:12 pm

I can think of one way... use the parachute as your tent when you land, you already have all the rebar and nylon rope you'd need to set up shelter. Bringing in 30 gallons of water for the week would require an extra large chute, but I have a better idea... Just bring enough plastic to cover a few small holes in the ground for what is known as a urine still. Then hang out a sign for everyone to gift urine for these evap wells. That just leaves enough beef jerky for the week unless you can scrounge up enough scorpions for snacks during the week.

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Re: bruningman

Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:31 pm

sacramentogames wrote: The price I have on Ebay is fair.
It would be fair at twice the price provided you could get someone to buy it. As long as you can justify the dollars to the buyer, the price is more than fair. And I certainly wouldn't worry about trying to justify it here...there are people on this forum that think that just the price of the tickets are a rip-off and the BMORG and Larry are ripping people off. Go figure.

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Post by Major Krash » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:52 pm

Kevin, a few "tips" to help you avoid some obvious pitfalls...

Are you planning on requesting reserved theme camp space? If so, are you aware of the requirements for eligibility, and the deadlines for application? Please do not assume you will buy passes from another camp and setup early in either reserved space or open space...(of course, if you have a prior financial arrangement with a real theme camp, you could pull this off, but then you would be robbing the city of other people who, theoretically, are there to provide something for others as opposed to make a buck - you do realize that Burningman is charged a fee for every person who arrives early?). Land-Grabs are against the Burningman Community Ethos, and you could be forcibly removed by the Placers if you squat on a reserved spot.

If you are not planning on requesting reserved theme camp space, how do you propose to provide 7 days on Playa, when the earliest you and your crew can then arrive is Monday at 00:00am (the 3-8 hour line you mention). The event is officially over on Monday evening...and you will still have to set-up camp AND get your MV down to DMV for inspection and licensing (which, by the way, is far from a "sure thing"). So I guess Monday midnight to Monday midnight is 7 days exactly....IF nothing goes wrong (which always happens on the Playa).

FYI - at least TWO MV inspections are required, one during daylight hours and one during night hours (assuming you wish both day and night permits). Again, I suppose you could "rent" someone else's vehicle that they got permitted early...also be aware that there are application deadlines for MV's also (there is a "permit application" form, and an "on-playa" inspection and approval).

Listen to Eric and follow his advice, and you might just pull this off. I hope you are paying him well, because he might just save you a very expensive lawsuit.

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Post by Dustdevil » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:49 pm

[quote="Major Krash"]Kevin, a few "tips" to help you avoid some obvious pitfalls...

Are you planning on requesting reserved theme camp space? If so, are you aware of the requirements for eligibility, and the deadlines for application? Please do not assume you will buy passes from another camp and setup early in either reserved space or open space...(of course, if you have a prior financial arrangement with a real theme camp, you could pull this off, but then you would be robbing the city of other people who, theoretically, are there to provide something for others as opposed to make a buck - you do realize that Burningman is charged a fee for every person who arrives early?). Land-Grabs are against the Burningman Community Ethos, and you could be forcibly removed by the Placers if you squat on a reserved spot.

Kevin simply needs to purchase a vendor pass, like the rest of the businesses that supply RV's and trailers to the Event. That will allow him early entry and in/out passes. Vendors passes are not cheap, but they serve a purpose in his case.

FYI - at least TWO MV inspections are required, one during daylight hours and one during night hours (assuming you wish both day and night permits). Again, I suppose you could "rent" someone else's vehicle that they got permitted early...also be aware that there are application deadlines for MV's also (there is a "permit application" form, and an "on-playa" inspection and approval).

The DMV inspection will be open Saturday and Sunday, pre event.
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Post by Major Krash » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:06 pm

...ok, but where will he set up these RV's, that he gets in using the Vendor Pass system? In registered theme camp space? Or in open camping before Monday opening? Will the 12 lucky Clients be expected to file their own application, or will Kevin be doing that as well? And what will he put for the various interactivity parts, etc? Unless, of course, another real theme camp agrees to let him use some of their space (but then do they plan on telling the Placement Team about their part in this for-profit venture?)...I do not see how his plan is feasible without breaking some of the published Community rules...

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Dear Kevin

Post by Catblack » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:15 pm

I saw your reply here and I replied to it here.

As I state there, from the wording of your auction I feel you are detestably and erroneously defining what the "true spirit of Burning Man" is in the wording of your auction. I think most people would cite the Ten Principals

Also, you did have wording on your auction earlier in the week about printing your "client's" company logo onto a banner and hanging it from a large 4 person trampoline. You are editing the wording of the auctions in response to feedback, and your other auction (down to two from the four you had posted two days ago?) still mentions the trampoline.

As I've mentioned to you, one of the ten principles of Burning Man is Decommodification. Check this out:
In order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to protect our culture from such exploitation. We resist the substitution of consumption for participatory experience.

So just to be clear, if I come off as a vocal critic of your enterprise, it is because I am attempting to protect MY culture from such exploitation. I have read the point made on the eplaya here about the fact that the money would change hands off-playa. I get it. And yes, I know that this sort of thing has and will happen. That's cool.

I am always telling people at the event that the biggest gift they can bring is themselves, a compliment and a smile. And I mean it. I work hard for that smile. I work hard for Black Rock City because it is my home. I've been blessed to be a part of building the city and restoring the site. It's the best gift I've been able to give, and I want as many people to experience this transformational event.

The Journey Is The Destination. You can spend and spend but you'll never get there if you have to pay someone to take you. How will you explain this to your clients? How will you install a sense of civic responsibility if you are going to clean up after them. How will they 'get' radical self-reliance if you are (in effect) wiping their asses for them?

So there's that.

But also there's the usage of a photo taken at the event in your ebay auction. I feel it is a violation of Burning Man's image policy to use photographs taken at the event for personal gain. The policy is there to prevent the event and it's trademarks from being exploited commercially. Like you are doing in your ebay auction.

Do you realize that ebay is overlaying an orange circle over your photos that says "free shipping"?

Shouldn't it say "expensive shipping for spectators"?

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Post by Dustdevil » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:24 pm

If they register as a theme camp, Placement will instruct them where to set up. If they come in as open campers, Placement will also place them, but I have observed these type of mass RV / trailer compounds are generally placed on the outskirts of the City. The application for a theme camp would be filed by the person most responsible for making that camp happen, Kevin in this case.

Placement is aware of the MANY businesses that are already doing this and they work with them. The only issues I have personally experienced with the RV / Trailer rental suppliers is where they drop the trailers. They often don't wait for Placement and will drop anywhere that looks good to them.

If this was breaking some rules or guidelines, the LLC would have put a stop to it long ago. This has been going on for 7 years that I know of.
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Post by Major Krash » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:36 pm

Dustdevil wrote:...Placement is aware of the MANY businesses that are already doing this and they work with them...
...this is news to me - if true (and I respect your opinion, so...) it saddens me that for-profit ventures are displacing either open campers or theme camps that provide interactivity. If a common Burner requests "premium" placement, for 5 RV's and shade structure space, without interactivity, they would not likely be placed. Years ago, sure, but hundreds of camps were denied in the last few years that had more interactivity than it sounds like these folks will be providing. Participation while they walk around, sure, but what will the real estate that is taken up by this for-profit camp, and the reportedly many others, be contributing to the city? What if only such camps showed up next year? The few funded art projects would be a bleak city to visit...

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Post by Eric » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:53 pm

Can I just point out one fact that's being hammered against Kevin here as if he's the first person to ever have a problem with it:

MOOP is a constant cluster fuck!

How many of us carry MOOP bags because there are thousands of idiots out there who don't have a clue what Leave No Trace means, let alone MOOP. How much shit (sometimes literally) do you see across the playa?

I've had early entry since 2003; every year, before Gate even opens, I see more & more crap out in the playa, beer cans in the Jots, crap flying by.
Before Gate Opens.
So people who are supposed to "know better" are littering and don't seem to "get it" any more than what you're blaming him for.

Yes, I am talking to him & may be working with him to make this actually work for the larger community as well as him, but that doesn't mean I haven't had problems with some of what he posted. Those problems are the reason I made my offer- if those of us who try to play by the 10 Principles (well, 9 in my case; I think my opinion on gifting is well known) don't try to teach them, who will?

There's a reason the frats & weekenders, sparkle-ponies & hippies are disliked so much. They don't "get it".

Well, have we tried teaching them?
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Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:55 pm

Major Krash wrote:
Dustdevil wrote:...Placement is aware of the MANY businesses that are already doing this and they work with them...
...this is news to me - if true (and I respect your opinion, so...) it saddens me that for-profit ventures are displacing either open campers or theme camps that provide interactivity.
Interesting that it has been going on all tuis time and you never noticed and it never bothered you? Not until someone pointed it out did you feel the need to complain that it was ruining the event. Obviously, as you have never before noticed their presence, this can't be true. Makes your objections sound hollow and unfounded.

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Post by ibdave » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:57 pm

Major Krash wrote:...ok, but where will he set up these RV's, that he gets in using the Vendor Pass system?.
MK, Why do you care? You seem to have your panties in a bunch over this for being a new guy on eplaya.. What gives? 8) :shock: 8)
I was Born OK the 1st Time....

Don't bring defaultia to Burning Man, take Burning Man to defaultia...... graidawg

Dustdevil
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Post by Dustdevil » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:58 pm

Two or three years ago 130 theme camps did not get placement. This created a hardship for those who spent a lot of time and money planning those camps, their setup and transportation to the Event. You are correct. If five RV's request Theme Camp Placement without a serious degree of interactivity, they most likely would be denied. It is a really large desert and there is plenty of space for non Theme Camp participants in RVs if they don't mind being farther back. Actually, some find the peaceful atmosphere of the outer roads to be quite nice, while others want the 24/7 activity of the Esplanade. It is a stretch to say that a for-profit camp would displace anyone. It is a really large desert. Also, the camp itself is not making a profit. The profit, if this comes to fruition, would be made by the person supplying the infrastructure of the camp. At least in my view, the camp is the people who make up the camp and how they interact with those around them.
Those who think they can and those who think they can't are both right.

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Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:02 pm

Eric wrote:
Yes, I am talking to him & may be working with him to make this actually work for the larger community as well as him,
I hope you're getting paid for your services.

JK
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When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

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Post by carousel » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:19 pm

Eric wrote:How many of us carry MOOP bags because there are thousands of idiots out there who don't have a clue what Leave No Trace means, let alone MOOP. How much shit (sometimes literally) do you see across the playa?

I've had early entry since 2003; every year, before Gate even opens, I see more & more crap out in the playa, beer cans in the Jots, crap flying by.
Before Gate Opens.
So people who are supposed to "know better" are littering and don't seem to "get it" any more than what you're blaming him for.

Yes, I am talking to him & may be working with him to make this actually work for the larger community as well as him, but that doesn't mean I haven't had problems with some of what he posted. Those problems are the reason I made my offer- if those of us who try to play by the 10 Principles (well, 9 in my case; I think my opinion on gifting is well known) don't try to teach them, who will?

There's a reason the frats & weekenders, sparkle-ponies & hippies are disliked so much. They don't "get it".

Well, have we tried teaching them?
Exactly the point I was trying to make previously. Why are we passively allowing people to come in and "dilute our culture" because we look at them and determine that they don't get it. We should be going out there as ambassadors and evangelists for the culture we love, taking it to the new people in a way that has them get it.

That's just my opinion. Of course we could also sit on our asses and say that things would be great if it weren't for -them- out there.

-Carousel

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