New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

[autopanic]

Bullshit....Utter fucking bullshit this is.

[Jammies]

And what about the people, not me thank you but I know several, what about the people who for whatever reason do not have credit cards? Approval by the money mongers should not be a prerequisite for ticket-buying, should it? How is that radically inclusive?

Definitely. Why is a credit card REQUIRED for purchase now? So unless I'm a slave to the credit card companies, I shouldn't be allowed to attend?

[mournlight]

Okay, and the powers-that-be, here's another consideration: Last year, I bought my ticket early, then bought one for a friend later on. I could not buy two at once. It sounds like from the "two week registration" that I could only buy one time? So if I can afford one ticket in February and one in June, I couldn't do that? I'm not at all seeing how this is a good solution. The idea of selling it back to the organization with a heavy penalty sounds good to me.

[JaRail]

It seems like the perception of it being random will lead to overbidding. While I like to pay for a higher tier than required, here's an example.. if my gf and I were both wanting the best tier, we'd both bid for 2 tickets. We'd then sell the two of higher price on craig's list at some point or give/sell to friends who decide at the last minute they want to come.

I personally think those who can't afford the average price of a ticket should need to work for their discount. Maybe pledge volunteer hours. Maybe give up peak-hours entrance privilege. Maybe write "please help" letters for the community to read and decide on. I think they should be required to put their discount-ticket request before tickets are sold AND give up the right to use a regular ticket. The tickets would have to be non-transferable for that to work. If I buy 8 tickets, there should be 8 names attached. Sure I like to buy an extra incase I meet a hot girl the week before the burn.. but that's not really in our greater communal benefit. Besides, having to sign up by name in advance would encourage more single people at the burn. Yay for hookups

But the way it is now, when 95% of people can afford the highest tier if required of them, we're all just randomly being assigned a price-point. That's dumb. Let's all pay the same. There are plenty of ways to donate if you want to go above and beyond. In fact, getting people to donate directly rather than volunteering for a more expensive ticket would generate more money from the initial ticket sales. Since I figure many people don't donate, I'd rather enter the lottery for a lower ticket price, secure it, then donate the difference later. Since I figure most people can afford the most expensive tickets, it prevents some cheap-ass from secure a lower ticket without donating more. Kind of a passive-aggressive defense I have which has developed from my opinions of the people and the tiered process..

Oh, and perhaps for those who really want a transferable ticket.. to have the option of bringing someone they're not yet sure of, let only the most expensive tickets + premium be transferable. The rest have to be sold back to the burning man organization for some percentage of the face value (for handling the transactions) which diminishes (for a small income source) close to the event. Then, those who locked up tickets and decided not to go are contributing to burning man rather than being encouraged not to attend by the opportunity of skyrocketing craig's list resale. I'm also a fan of how this would reduce the number of tickets going to tourists and hired help since it would be more difficult to attach a name to the ticket 9 months in advance.

[junglesmacks]

[...]without having to wonder whether the group would get in or not [...]

Don't you wonder that anyway? They need to be prepared! All this means is no more waiting until that last second! I mean.. it's a couple hundred bucks. Yeah. So allocate the money now and get in the lottery NOW instead of later!

The way I see it, all this really affects is the people waiting until the last second. If you are prepared and want to buy your ticket early like you should be doing anyway instead of waiting until the last minute.. then you will be fine!

All this means is.. like always.. don't wait until the last second! Get in the lottery now as soon as you can!

[tpeace]

If you're gonna mess up the ticket sale process that badly, just to prevent a rush that takes down your servers, why not just do away with all but the low-income tiers of tickets? That way there won't be such a rush to get the "cheap" tickets on the day they go on sale.

[EspressoDude]

what a Fucking thing to announce on Veteran's Day!! Another opportunity fuck over Veterans and military personnel, in addition to all other folks.

reminds of Nixon's draft lottery determining whether, or how, you you going to war in Viet Nam






(U.S.Navy)

[trilobyte]

Personally I had no problems with the old system, other than limited server capacity on the first day of sales. Using a lottery and staging that initial round of ticket purchases could be a good thing (especially for those who've suffered the first-day process), I'm curious to see the additional details.

[theCryptofishist]

are you sure that someone who indicates that they would be willing to pay at multiple tiers is going to be entered into, say, the first-tier lottery? or are they only going to be entered into the lottery at the highest tier they are willing to pay? it is not entirely clear from the way they worded it.

You designate the price you are willing to pay and don't get into any lower lotteries.
At least that's how I read it. so you balance your willingness to pay a higher tier against your willingness to not get a ticket.

[capjbadger]

W.
T.
F.

A ticket gamble completely destroys any planning a person or group can do for the event or for large projects.

I've seen some stupid ideas before, but this takes the fucking cake. What retard thought this was a good idea??

Boycott online tickets and buy from stores in person.

-Badger

[Simon of the Playa]

Have i mentioned my naked yoga offer yet to anyone with a credit card?

[CapSmashy]

Lottery sucks big time!

Part of the Burning Man event involves a lot of early scheduling commitments regarding work and family and $$ committed to renting things like RV's as early as mid January. With the lottery system a person does not know if they are going to get a ticket or their camp mates are all going to be able to get tickets.

scenario 1: you sign up for the lottery, give credit card info. Then rent the RV.....oops, sorry no tickets..You are FUCKED for lots of money

scenario 2: you sign up for the lottery, give credit card info. Plan a theme camp with a bunch of people...oops, sorry no tickets..You are FUCKED with a theme camp of one or two.

scenario 3: you sign up for the lottery, give credit card info. Plan a Mutant Vehicle with another person and half way through construction and big $$ spent...oops, sorry no tickets..You are FUCKED with half a MV.

scenario 4: you sign up for the lottery, give credit card info. Plan a big Art Project with another person and half way through construction and big $$ spent...oops, sorry no tickets..You are FUCKED with half an Art Project

If Burning Man was a Rock Concert where there are performers and you purchase SPECTATOR TICKETS, this system might work.
Burning man is a participatory event where the PERFORMERS and ARTISTS are also the ticket buyers, this system will not work.

Why build any art or a theme camp if there is a big chance you will not get a ticket. Those of us that plan and build things buy tickets first.
Those that buy tickets in June or July are likely SPECTATORS only and if they are too late and the event is sold out...well .....

Amen brother.

This definitely takes the sound barge and Ken's art project of the planning table. No fucking way anyone should be investing that kind of cash on a maybe.

[halffast]

"Almost 12 years supporting the BM experience and working for the event. This is a BAD idea guys & gals."


kinda funny on that timing because 12 years ago and for many before that, this is exactly how they sold them.

except you mailed multiple money orders in, a base one and then extra ones for each tier. and a SASE and they mailed you the money orders back that weren't needed to get you the tickets. (or all of them because you didnt get any) or you mailed checks and they promised to rip em up.

yes, the wording about when exactly the lottery will be held wasn't clear.

Folks who assume that the "two week period" for registration will be in the summer instead of early in the year like its been for ages because they want lots of money long before the event might be right, but that would be an odd change, wouldn't it?

[theCryptofishist]

Have i mentioned my naked yoga offer yet to anyone with a credit card?

We have credit cards to protect us from Naked Yoga. I wear my around my neck 24/7. Never know when some naked yoga might sneak into the house at 3 a.m...

[CapSmashy]

W.
T.
F.

A ticket gamble completely destroys any planning a person or group can do for the event or for large projects.

I've seen some stupid ideas before, but this takes the fucking cake. What retard thought this was a good idea??

Boycott online tickets and buy from stores in person.

-Badger

Love to buy a ticket in a store.

Anywhere in the Dallas area to walk in and get one? Oh yeah, nope.

Anywhere in Osaka to walk in and buy one? Oh yeah, nope.

12 members of our camp last year were from Japan.

[ChainLynx]

Another problem is that this creates uncertainty for those of us planning art installations, theme camps, mutant vehicles, etc. I must now ask myself whether or not I should I go ahead with the time-consuming, labor intensive (a labor of love, mind you) plans I have for our theme camp. It would break my heart to put so much into it only to find out in the early summer that all of my work was for nothing because I wasn't selected in the lottery. I'm sure that everyone who starts their builds early in order to bring something wonderful to share is now asking themselves the same question. I worry that the on-playa experience may suffer because people won't start building until they know with certainty that they have a ticket, and thus will have less time to put something truly amazing together.

This, this is the key problem (as a few others have also pointed out). BM is not a random concert. BM lives off the year worth of creativity and time/money/etc. invested by many attendees. If a theme camp/art project/etc. is worried there is even a small percentage chance their key people won't be able to go, they will not put their heart and soul into their creations.

I've attended most of the last dozen years. I agree, the wait-and-hope online purchase process was broken last year, being largely a matter of luck, hours of available time, and random dropped connections. It was already a lottery, just not an intentional one... But to ensure people can plan properly (building, renting gear, making trip arrangements, ...), they need certainty they will be able to attend, and they need it immediately. In fact they needed it the day after the Man burned -- this is not rocket science, why wasn't this something planned and announced properly months ago?

I don't feel a lottery would worsen (or solve) scalping, credit card issues, etc. But there has never been a concern before that someone willing to pay for a higher ticket tier wouldn't get in. Maybe you need the tickets non-transferable (needing ID at the gate), maybe you need a process by which theme camps can apply for a guaranteed set of tickets. Whatever the solution is, you need it now. Until you resolve that, your announcement has just stalled/crippled most ambitious Burner plans. The event will be diminished by the uncertainty.

[junglesmacks]

THERE WILL BE MULTIPLE LOTTERIES.. NOT JUST ONE

YOU WILL HAVE MULTIPLE OPPORTUNITIES

QUIT FREAKING OUT

PLAN AND ALLOCATE FUNDS EARLY

IT"S REALLY NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL

[JaRail]

[quote="theCryptofishist"][quote="Vorpal Blade"]are you sure that someone who indicates that they would be willing to pay at multiple tiers is going to be entered into, say, the first-tier lottery? or are they only going to be entered into the lottery at the highest tier they are willing to pay? it is not entirely clear from the way they worded it.[/quote]
You designate the price you are willing to pay and don't get into any lower lotteries.
At least that's how I read it. so you balance your willingness to pay a higher tier against your willingness to not get a ticket.[/quote]

I think it's more like an auto-bid auction. Everyone is in the 1st round, some win, some don't, some drop out. Whoever's willing to pay the 2nd tier goes on to another lottery for those tickets, etc. Presumably if you want to pay a higher price, you would be entered into the 1st round but pay for a higher value ticket if you win. Then your spot would go to whoever was next in line after the random spots were chosen. So if there are 5000 tickets in first tier, it'd assign everyone a number. If 50 people had opted to buy higher tier tickets regardless, then 5001 - 5050 would get tier 1s and 'win' the 1st round as well.

That's my take..

[lemur]

THERE WILL BE MULTIPLE LOTTERIES.. NOT JUST ONE

YOU WILL HAVE MULTIPLE OPPORTUNITIES

QUIT FREAKING OUT

PLAN AND ALLOCATE FUNDS EARLY

IT"S REALLY NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL

ive already shelved all of my plans for 2012.

[MyDearFriend]

also, rlly ppl. newbie to the boards does not mean newbie to this process or the burn. some of us just don't speak until there seems to be something worth saying.

Exactly.

And, some do not speak here at all. What about the Rejectionists, the off-grid folks and the ones who preferred, all these years, to walk into a shop and buy a ticket for cash without exposing themselves? They are Burners, too... or used to be.

[Drawingablank]

Lemur - I have always enjoyed reading your posts, but you are so off base on this thread it isn't even close to funny.

Espressodude - You summed up the situation perfectly.

Personally I don't think there is any single thing the org could do that would kill the event faster than a lottery for tickets.

As someone who has already been planning and spending for BM 2012, I have to say that this has completely slammed on the brakes. I am not spending another dime, creating any more art, or building one more thing till I have a ticket in hand. Sadly, I feel this attitude will be reflected across many of the participants which will make for a less than spectacular event next year.

Call me whiney if you like, but times are tough and I just don't have cash to shell out for stuff for an event I may not get to even attend.

[Gonzo_uk]

So basically lets penalize the organized people to compensate for the muppets who waited till July before buying a ticket.

Hmm, a lot of UK based burners normally buy their flights in early Jan because of the Virgin and BA sales but I guess we all have to wait till the Burning man Ticket overlord decides who's worthy... and then pay over the odds for our flights.

WORST IDEA EVER!

[CapSmashy]

"Almost 12 years supporting the BM experience and working for the event. This is a BAD idea guys & gals."


kinda funny on that timing because 12 years ago and for many before that, this is exactly how they sold them.

except you mailed multiple money orders in, a base one and then extra ones for each tier. and a SASE and they mailed you the money orders back that weren't needed to get you the tickets. (or all of them because you didnt get any) or you mailed checks and they promised to rip em up.

yes, the wording about when exactly the lottery will be held wasn't clear.

Folks who assume that the "two week period" for registration will be in the summer instead of early in the year like its been for ages because they want lots of money long before the event might be right, but that would be an odd change, wouldn't it?

Oh I'm sure the 2 week registration process will begin early. JRS said something about November.

The bigger issue comes into play, how soon will we actually know whether or not we have been granted a ticket? Multiple lotteries for the tiers, so does that mean if I miss round one, I still have a chance or do I need to sign up again?

Suppose I win the lottery and get granted a ticket but I used my debit card because I do not have a credit card. I just made my car payment because i didn't know when or if I would win the ticket lottery, BMORG runs the transaction and it gets declined. Does this negate my lottery win?

[Just_Joe]

[...]without having to wonder whether the group would get in or not [...]

Don't you wonder that anyway? They need to be prepared!

There was no wondering this year. We all had purchased tickets within days of the onsale.
Item#1 on the checklist was taken care of, which allowed us to move onto items #2-2466.

This year I'll put up my money on day one of the lottery/registration or whatever they call it. How long will it be before I receive notice that I'm one of the chosen ones? JRS says- "Ticket fulfillment will be held until early summer", which in Burning Man time means late summer.
Are you going to wait until July to book your box truck? And what do we tell the guy in Europe that's wondering what to buy first- Airline ticket or Entry ticket?
It's only a three hour drive for me, and with no theme camp/airline ticket/RV rental to worry about I'll be just fine, as long as you're there to entertain me with your suit (which I thoroughly enjoyed, BTW)

[JRoyale]

My first reaction was this was a completely fucked up idea. But on second thought, it's really all about about the details.

I have no idea how they will do this, but say they have a lottery in Feb where they decide who ends up in which tier and then one lottery month, the only people in danger of not getting a ticket will be those people in the July lottery.

There's a million different ways it could happen, I just hope they pick a rational plan.

One idea is that everyone that signs up in Feb (or when they they open the damn thing) pays the same price for a ticket which is calculated by summing up the total tickets sold times the tier that ticket would have been in.

Then it's first come, first serve at appropriate tier price until the last month. Then they do one lottery for the late people and we're done.

Personally, I think they should just nix the tiers and have just two ticket prices. Tickets sold in the first two weeks and those sold later... it would make things a lot simpler.

JR

[adonis808]

lemur the sum total of your posts is IMMATURE, LACKING IN WISDOM AND HUMILITY. You show yourself as the worst kind of contributor, attacking other's ideas with inflamatory and childish writing.

No, saying you are childish is an insult to children. I don't know any children as uncouth as you've put yourself across here.

Don't speak to the newbies as an seasoned burner. If that is you in your avatar that would make you about 4 years old the first time I went to Burning Man. You apparently have learned little from your short experience with Burninging Man. Try again, maybe you'll get it this time.

[theCryptofishist]

Oh I'm sure the 2 week registration process will begin early. JRS said something about November.

That's for the holiday pre-sales. I'm guessing that they will do it in January.

As for "ticket fulfillment" being in early summer, I think that means that no matter when you "win" a lottery and buy your ticket, you will not get the physical one until June. Ish. Maybe July, this is the llc.

[caliban]

Okay, and the powers-that-be, here's another consideration: Last year, I bought my ticket early, then bought one for a friend later on. I could not buy two at once. It sounds like from the "two week registration" that I could only buy one time? So if I can afford one ticket in February and one in June, I couldn't do that? I'm not at all seeing how this is a good solution. The idea of selling it back to the organization with a heavy penalty sounds good to me.

You have fair warning. You (and your friend(s)) should start saving now. In fact, given the now sellout status of the event, you had fair wanring to start stasing away $5-10/month back in June or whatever, since it was certain that tickets would sell out in the first day or two of queuing under the old system.

[SenoraObscura]

Fixing the ticketing process to keep away scalpers could be very very easy.

Step 1. Make tickets non-transferrable. Each person buys one ticket, to their name. It could be will-call, or (for the traditionalists), you could have the person's name printed on the ticket (which is double checked against the person's ID, and non-refundable).
Step 2. If tickets sell out, people are admitted to the waiting list.
Step 3. If you can't make Burning Man, or want to get rid of the ticket, you can sell it back to the waiting ticket for the price you paid. The ticket goes to the first person on the waiting list, at a fixed price.

TA-DA!

[Vorpal Blade]

are you sure that someone who indicates that they would be willing to pay at multiple tiers is going to be entered into, say, the first-tier lottery? or are they only going to be entered into the lottery at the highest tier they are willing to pay? it is not entirely clear from the way they worded it.

You designate the price you are willing to pay and don't get into any lower lotteries.
At least that's how I read it. so you balance your willingness to pay a higher tier against your willingness to not get a ticket.

that's how i read it too. it's not clear yet whether there is the same number of tickets at each tier. but let's assume there are. this means three things, one a mixed-blessing, two really bad things:

1. those who value the experience more are more likely to get a ticket. (but, note, "value" is determined only in monetary terms here. So someone with a lot of money to spare who thinks nothing of $500 dollars has a better shot of getting a ticket than someone who might be a very valued member of the community but for whom $500 is a lot.)
2. those who are less-well off are less likely to get a ticket.
3. those who had time on their hands (possibly rather than money) and could participate in the first-day sale madness can no longer use that to their benefit when trying to get a ticket.

So. Now it is an event for those who can afford to bid high, without the inconvenience of having to wait in line.

Unless, perversely, there are so many bidders on upper-tier tickets that the odds of getting a lower tier ticket become better than the odds of getting an upper tier ticket.

somehow that seems unlikely, though.