New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

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Rubeee
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Rubeee » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:12 pm

Let's see......lottery system. I organized and played in a charity golf tournament a few years back and there were 140 prizes. 144 people were in attendance. Guess who didn't win one prize - hmmmmm me!

StormInADDCup
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by StormInADDCup » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:15 pm

I'm just going to scalp. it's there for the taking really isn't it? Thanks BM!

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by FaeTora » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:15 pm

My question is why do they think this will prevent scalping? Some regionals have been doing this for years and it doesn't prevent it at all.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Cloudflyer » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:17 pm

Really? I have to say I am really surprised this is the solution!

1. This will make the scalper problem worse! If a married couple or friends that goes every year, and this year one won the lotto but the other didn't the only way they can go is to pay a scalper a higher price as you have now added to the value by making the ticket even harder to get than before.

2. I start planning for burning man the day I get back. I build things like a camp handicap art car and practice my night skydives with pyrotechnics on my foot. I spend thousands of dollars and a lot of time preparing. The more work you put into it the better experience everyone has. Now I can't build anything until I know I'm going. That sucks!

3. I have gone to Burning Man six times now. I will never miss another one in my life. Perhaps until now that is. I just can't imagine missing a year. It scares me actually. For some of us it's very sacred.

4. It dilutes the loyal Burning Man population. The people who have made Burning Man what it is. Our camp has over 100 people in it. We lease airplanes, truck fuel, and build a large size camp. What if the core groups that runs the show can't get tickets?

I have to say I am really disappointed! First come first serve is the best option. Yes there will be scalpers, congratulations you have built a value where the demand is greater than the supply. Welcome to the world of sold out problems. There are no large venues (sports, music, ext..) that use the lottery because the lottery will make it worse not better.

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theCryptofishist
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:19 pm

Space CowGirl wrote:I thought that BMORG was going to work with BLM to work on a new contract to increase the population and city limits a bit? What happened to that?
This year's permit hasn't been made public yet. This is the latest information on the BLM website. We don't know how this was effected by behind the scenes negotiations, but I bet they've discussed this with BLM, and it already reflects BLM's input on the matter.
Space CowGirl wrote:What about consensus too? Aren't we a community? When was there ever an announcement in the JRS asking what citizens of BRC thought or wanted to see happen?
Like it or not, the llc is the part of BRC that does the primary interfacing with BLM, Sheriff's, and a dozen (or more) other government agencies. I cannot imagine what sort of consensus process that more than 50,000 used would work. Sounds unwieldy at the very least.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by lemur » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:19 pm

the fulfillment of ticket orders being late in the season gives scalpers much less time to be able to profit from tickets because they will have no ticket to sell until way late in the game... even if they get in the game in january
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by StormInADDCup » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:20 pm

caliban wrote:
StormInADDCup wrote:It's all very well posting on a forum that we know no one organizing the thing is ever going to read. We need to come together and voice our concerns in an effective way and get them to reconsider. How do we do that?
Write a letter? Print out the forum to paper and mail it to them?

Oh, right, there's this in the JRS to which we're all reacting:

Visit the ePlaya ticket threads at http://bit.ly/BM2012Tickets and discuss and ask questions openly so we can answer in a way that benefits more people.

Sure, it's reasonable that they might not read everything in eplaya and discuss it at meetings, but this was a specific call out to post here so they can read comments and address them. If you don't believe that they're actually reading this, why would you want to come to the event?
Caliban, if you read back a bit there's someone in there reporting that they know for a fact that only one of the organizers reads these threads and then not very often. Whether that's true or not if I was in their position I'd direct people to somewhere they could vent and let them get on with it while I carry on implementing my lottery that I've already decided on before the 2011 event even began. I think the forum might not be sufficient - I HOPE it will though.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by oneeyeddick » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:22 pm

Look at all these new people here just because of an announcement.

JKisha is gonna finally hafta blow his wad when he shows up and sees this Smörgåsbord.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:22 pm

Ooooh! Nice diacritical marks, dick.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by aranea » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:23 pm

junglesmacks wrote:Correct.. assuming that there are 55k people entering the very first lottery. Unless 55k+ enter the very first lottery.. EVERYONE THAT ENTERS WILL GET A TICKET.
I can understand this, yet I still feel confused by how the price tiering works in this system. If I sign up for a tier 1 ticket and 55,000 people DON'T sign up to get a ticket, will I still get a tier 1 ticket? If I want a tier 1 ticket will I have to wait longer than if I'm willing to pay more? It will be interesting to see what additional info comes out about this.

Btw, I think it's good to remember that asking questions isn't a sign of stupidity. It's actually quite the opposite.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by VultureChow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:24 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
VultureChow wrote: At the very lest, they could have been a bit clearer when releasing something this drastic.
I think instructions are really, really hard to write. To write them you have to understand the process. If you understand the process you have a whole bunch of unconscious knowledge that you don't even realize you have and the people reading it don't. Not to mention that people's minds process information very differently from each other. I think they can't know what the questions will be until they release it to a large audience and then they can learn from the questions.

So, you can't assemble those toys for your children, not simply because the instructions are oddly translated from the Chinese (not that you should be buying toys from china this giftmas, get something local), but also because even in Chinese they only make sense to some people anyway.

I agree completely, but that's why you have editors. You can't tell me they couldn't find a dozen beta testers of the info in SF to test this and ask questions.

The entire release of the info seems designed to produce panic: Friday afternoon release so you have the weekend to obsess and wait for further info, drastc change without full explanations...

In the end, I think you and lemur are right. Everyone who plans ahead and handles it right will get their tickets.
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isThisRealLife
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by isThisRealLife » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:26 pm

isThisRealLife wrote:A PROPOSED SOLUTION TO TICKETING FROM A HUMBLE BURNER

(Letter from BMORG)
Hello _____,
We'd like to thank you for being a continued burner over the years, and as a 2011 participant who has attended x times, you'll be given an exclusive window early in the year to directly purchase your 2012 tickets. Instead of a stupid lottery that would put you up against scalpers and newbs, we honor your tenure and welcome you to take advantage of this chance to buy early with no server load or long wait issues. Your access code to our ticketing system is F23BK4N and will allow you to purchase between Jan 1 - Feb 15. It will work beyond that time, but that window is reserved exclusively for the your invitation group.

Also, each ticket purchased will require the Burner's name to be logged at the time of purchase. Tickets will be non-transferable - this will completely prevent scalpers from hoarding and driving up ticket prices. If your plans change and you need a refund of your ticket, this can be done by contacting our Ticket Refund department at (415) 555-5555 and must be completed by July 15, 2012. NOTE: A $35 fee will be applied to sell your ticket back to us - this is to cover the cost of administrative work. Your ticket may not be transferred to another person through this process, they must purchase their own.

You may purchase up to 4 tickets with your access code, although keep in mind that you must have all 4 names of the Burners that you're buying for.

Again, we thank you for being a part of the community, and we acknowledge that we'd be nothing without people like you.
(End of letter)

If BMORG were smart, they'd already have a sorted list of emails & names that indicate how many years each burner has gone, and who's been most recently. Chop this list into pieces to create windows of ticket sales that will spread out the surge of traffic (instead of a lottery) and reward the most dedicated burners with the early windows. Send each Group an email 4 weeks in advance that their exclusive window is approaching, and remind them a day before as well. No excuses not to get your tickets comfortably with this approach.

While there may be SOME administrative work created from those who cancel and have to get a ticket refund, the fees would cover the cost of additional staff and the non-transferable approach would kill scalpers instantly.

The lottery might cover most of the community, but there will undoubtedly be a large group of irate burners who had to sit 2012 out because of bad luck. This will cause people to err on scaling down their installations, plans, camps, etc. because no one wants to risk splitting the money and effort of a 40 person camp plan by say, 25 people.

The only headache this approach would create is that tickets would have to be presented alongside an ID. So, reach down into your pocket and pull your ID out at the gate, and everything else will be the same as usual.

No more scalpers, no more server load, no more long-time burners getting the shaft.

Bump this if you agree, and let's get an alternative community SOLUTION to this ass backward lottery proposal. It's easy to vent our frustrations, but BMORG might actually listen if we give them a solid solution that lets everyone win.
PS Lemur - why so much trolling to jab at everyone who's upset? Either propose your own solution or sit back. You're not helping anyone by calling the community idiots, whiners and assholes. I'm waiting for the first words from you that are actually productive.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Janet Planet » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:27 pm

Quoting an earlier post:
"Each scalper in LA has like 100 "minions" that buy tickets for them (as there is usually a limit). The scalpers pay them a small profit and then re-sell the tickets at a huge profit.
So now, for every real Burner trying to get tickets - each scalper will employ 100 kids to be in the same lottery - and guess what - scalpers will end up with 50% plus of all tickets. Mark my word - watch out for the secondary ticket market next year
."

I FEAR what scalpers can do to Burning Man.
The idea of non-transferable tickets with a restocking fee for returning them is brilliant. Do it.

My personal stake: My mom is coming this year, for her first burn. She'll be celebrating her 80th birthday (inshallah). She already plunked down her money for an RV (yeah, I agree, RVs are dumb. But let the old lady take a shower, OK?).
She's planning ahead like a good responsible burner. I want her to be able to go, and not lose her RV deposit.


Come on, BMORG! Don't punish us radically self reliant plan-ahead types.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Drawingablank » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:28 pm

junglesmacks wrote:*facepalm*


I thought you all were smarter than this. Keep chasing your tails. I'll be on the playa with my ticket that really was no big deal to purchase.

JS - I guess you really see this in a different language - because what this screams to me is to put all plans on hold until I have ticket in hand. Not that I have great doubts about getting a ticket - but seriously to reduce burn build time to once you have ticket in hand. Losing 4 months of build time would be a serious detriment to many of the larger art and theme camps IMHO.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Nick Collide » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:29 pm

Sorry, tried to post this earlier but it just kept kicking it back to the edit screen - maybe that was a good thing? LOL

I'm sure they considered this, but it just seems like it would be so much easier for the BMorg to simply lose the tier system. Every ticket would cost the same as every other ticket (not counting the new improved low-cost/scholarship tickets, of course). It would eliminate the mad rush in January to get the best price possible (and the server crashes, and the all day waits, etc.), give the folks who build the city (don't even start :evil: ) control over their finances, planning, etc. and, until the event actually did sell out (late July early August again - if at all?) it would be a risky enterprise for scalpers to invest in. (What knucklehead would buy tickets on craigslist when you can still get them from the org? What if TTITD didn't sell out (maybe because of the increase in tickets available) and they got stuck with their supply?) Yes, it would cost more for those that "have their shit together" come mid-January, but I agree with whoever it was that said tickets are just a part (often a small part) of the total cost of the event. For example, I usually end up paying more for the gas just to get there than the tickets.

The lottery system is overly complicated, paranoia-inducing and, at best, will come to the same end as a same-price ticket structure. Who was it that said the simplest way to do something is most often the best?

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Diablolita » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:30 pm

I don't usually gripe about any changes to Burning Man. This will (God willing) be my 15th consecutive year. I've learned not to complain about change.

But this actually affects all of us - and is an interesting choice. How do radical self-expression and radical self-reliance factor into a lottery? I mean, I suppose it's better than the meritocracy of creativity that backs choices behind art grants and mutant vehicles and theme camps (I'm the organizer of Pee Funnel Camp, so I take sweet advantage of that unfair bow of BMorg to tradition in that I never worry about being a placed theme camp)... or maybe it isn't. It depends on one's feelings about fate. Fate decides who of us will attend this year.

I would imagine that most of us will get tickets and then we'll all quiet down and ignore the fallen until we hear someone screaming in some serotonin-depleted state during the Temple Burn that someone else "deserved" the ticket of someone in front of you that wouldn't sit down.

Scarcity creates a lovely populace. Huzzah BMorg for your overthought bad choice. Not that I have a better idea. My buddy did, though: Airline tickets. Great model. Ticket with your legal name on it. Checked at the gate. It's even called a "gate", motherfuckers. But whatever... no one asked me. I just make Pee Funnels.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by littlewing2 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:31 pm

I'm sure they considered this, but it just seems like it would be so much easier for the BMorg to simply lose the tier system. Every ticket would cost the same as every other ticket (not counting the new improved low-cost/scholarship tickets, of course). It would eliminate the mad rush in January to get the best price possible (and the server crashes, and the all day waits, etc.), give the folks who build the city (don't even start ) control over their finances, planning, etc.
Excellent idea!!!! I second that motion.


PS. I am not new, I have been to 15 burns... My old account got locked up somehow so I created a new one.... hence the 2 in my user name. Thanks.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by BurningDaylight » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:32 pm

Pretty ridiculously and unnecessarily complicated process. And what does "Ticket fulfillment will be held until early summer" mean? And what was wrong with the old system? Sure it broke on opening day, but I got my ticket. I'm not whining because it's different, I'm whining because it's lame. There's enough stress with planning and organizing and financial commitments. We don't need the stress knowing whether we can even go. Yeah, yeah, I know - multiple lotteries. Until I know more, I don't find that reassuring.

So, BMORG, if you are actually reading our complaints - Don't re-invent the process just because of some problems, fix the old one. Or don't. I can certainly live with the old system.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by FaeTora » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:33 pm

10,000 pee funnels!
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:33 pm

Cloudflyer wrote:1. This will make the scalper problem worse! If a married couple or friends that goes every year, and this year one won the lotto but the other didn't the only way they can go is to pay a scalper a higher price as you have now added to the value by making the ticket even harder to get than before.
There will be a limited number of tickets per person.
it's plural. Now, I know that there are triads, but they are rare. I'm guessing the number of tickets will be 2 or 4. The plural s implies that it's going to be one credit card, one ticket.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by VultureChow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:36 pm

Nick Collide wrote:Sorry, tried to post this earlier but it just kept kicking it back to the edit screen - maybe that was a good thing? LOL

I'm sure they considered this, but it just seems like it would be so much easier for the BMorg to simply lose the tier system. Every ticket would cost the same as every other ticket (not counting the new improved low-cost/scholarship tickets, of course). It would eliminate the mad rush in January to get the best price possible (and the server crashes, and the all day waits, etc.), give the folks who build the city (don't even start :evil: ) control over their finances, planning, etc. and, until the event actually did sell out (late July early August again - if at all?) it would be a risky enterprise for scalpers to invest in. (What knucklehead would buy tickets on craigslist when you can still get them from the org? What if TTITD didn't sell out (maybe because of the increase in tickets available) and they got stuck with their supply?) Yes, it would cost more for those that "have their shit together" come mid-January, but I agree with whoever it was that said tickets are just a part (often a small part) of the total cost of the event. For example, I usually end up paying more for the gas just to get there than the tickets.

The lottery system is overly complicated, paranoia-inducing and, at best, will come to the same end as a same-price ticket structure. Who was it that said the simplest way to do something is most often the best?

I was thinkig an upside down tier system with limits at the higher tiers. Prices start high then go down over a few weeks to rest at one price. Those who can afford to can buy early and be guarenteed. You buy in where you can afford to. They don't release the bottom price so you have a week until people relie it has hit and there is no rush. Scalpers have a disincentive to buy early because the tickets will decrease in price.

Or jut go to named tickets. That would be the easiest.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by EspressoDude » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:40 pm

"Ticket fulfillment will be held until early summer"

means that tickets will not be mailed to you until then. There goes the secure feeling that your ticket is: stuck on the refrigerator door, in the safe, etc.

July 15 rolls around and no ticket in hand.......where is it? bmorg claims they mailed it...only 5 weeks to sort that out instead of 5 months...
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by ACKlabs » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:44 pm

How would you try to "slow down" the social system known as BurningMan? This doesn't seem very useful as a reformative process. SHTF

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by isThisRealLife » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:46 pm

I also think the scalping issue is way more of an issue than a large server load. It seems like they went a whole new direction MOSTLY to deal with the server load (their issue). If they thought about the community they would have addressed a solution that tackled the scalping issue (our issue).

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Jewel Man » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:48 pm

KISS -- Keep It Simple Stupid is the number one rule in engineering. Think about it folks what is simple about what you are designing for the BM Backoffice or the participants. Keep the current process that rewards those people who are willing to part with their money 9 months before the event or make one tier with the pricing the same for all tickets. One price will eliminate "the rush at the gate" phenomenon. The lottery plan has so many points of failure while at the same time not solving the issue of the whiners who waited until August to buy their tickets finding out that their parents couldn't fix the sold out ticket problem for them.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:49 pm

How much scalping was there actually last year? Because it seemed to be more rumor than fact, and you could get face value tickets on Craigslist late August.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by FaeTora » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:49 pm

but I get the feeling, we are less of a concern.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Ratty » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:50 pm

Wow. I'm learning a lot here. I always mailed in my ticket money on the first day. I shouldn't say always. 2 years ago I bought my ticket at Berkeley Hat. I guess there won't be any more retail sales. I will go and i will have fun. I'm going to concentrate on the positive for now.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by BMG » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:51 pm

Seriously, I figured BMORG would just revamp their computer system to handle the demand, and leave it at that.
The now widespread knowledge that sales are limited would mean that for 2012, those in the know and who are serious, would not waste time and miss out. First come, first served. LIke a powder day at a ski area, show up early or miss out. The serious ones show up early. The less serious ones that wait and waffle are the ones who risk losing out, and I would say they are the ones who are best qualified to miss out, and if there is a sell out, then they would.
I hope the forthcoming details reflect some clever thinking. As it sounds now, this is a set up for scalpers to run wild. Hell, the idea of entering the lottery at my chosen level several times over posing as a different buyers already sprang to mind. I would resell if obligated to buy, and I would resell at cost. Seems that would be doing someone a good turn, however this also amounts to beating someone else out, so that that is a zero-sum option.
This whole scheme makes me profoundly uncomfortable.
Last edited by BMG on Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by moonrise » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:52 pm

from JRS "...stand by for more complete information soon..."

It sold out once, it'll sell out again.

I don't use credit cards, LLC will you allow a relative or freind of mine to enter your proposed lottery with their credit card?

LLC, you've taken the wind out of some fantastic plans made by countless burners. You're more complete information should abolish the lottery (probably just a big fun prank, haha) and figure out a solution to blocking scalpers. I've paid full price and 2nd tier, but I wont chance fake tickets, nor pay a scalper a profit. Yep, it's all due to the population cap issue, but as many more experienced ticket buyers/scalpers/what have you types have stated, there are ways to give your proposed lottery a fair chance of blocking scalpers. At a minimum, this should be worked into a proposed lottery (what a joke)

You can bet the BLM is watching this thread and hmmmm, will they police the gate and say "stop, you've reached your cap' (because fake tickets will happen, then what?)
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