New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

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lemur
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by lemur » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:10 am

Sola Gangsta wrote:
As a business owner who processes credit cards on the internet I can answer this question. It is illegal for merchants to store certain elements of credit card information outside of the security of the server according to Visa and MasterCard regulations. See below on card handling best practices:

https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Handlin ... _Practices

Also they have to process the order within the amount of time specified by the grace period of the card or they run the risk of violation (this may vary between institutions but it doesn't apply in my case because orders are processed instantaneously). Violation of the agreement between the merchant and the bank can result in revocation of merchant status and closing of the account and possible other charges...

You might want to ask for a copy of the merchant agreement they have with their card processor, but they are pretty much the same insofar as they have to follow federal regulations.
if you go through the process of buying stuff on their online marketplace youll see burning man is using the same people as for ticketing to handle their card transactions..

https://merch.inticketing.com/checkout.php blahblahblah is the url.

rest assured that your credit card info will be just as safe for the lottery as it has been for every ticket purchase last year.. as well as any marketplace purchase, because its the same company dealing with the card data.

(im not an official but ..it seems safe to me to presume such from just looking at how stuff is..)


(edit: list of places that trust inticketing with their customers sensitive credit card info: http://www.inticketing.com/info.php?i=1690 )
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Joshy Neurotic » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:15 am

ive thought about this now, since the JRS came out.

now granted, im still not keen on the idea, but im willing, and bound to , wait to see what the rest of the details are. I doubt they will have attendance of 70,000 for 2012 . i personally didn't like the amount of people that were around last year. tuesday was fucking nuts. granted i loved every minute of it, but it was god dam busy last year. I would hope they would cap the city limits of 50,000. But i think that, assuming that you dont "win" a ticket in the first lottery you apply for, you can apply for another. It would be just dumb to not allow this. Now assuming 50,000 tickets will be sold. and doing 10,000 increments ... or tiers if you will, thats 5 lotteries, 5 chances. so im willing to bet, if you want to go, you will be-able to. Tho this all hinges on if you will be allowed to enter into multipule lotteries, assuming a loss at a previous lottery.
One of the other things people have been forgetting is, that they have, in previous years, limited a sale to one particular credit card to 2 tickets ( correct me if im wrong, but i think this is correct), and would assume that it would be the same. Even if they were at 2 different lottery tiers.
I still think this will not do any thing for scalpers, but limit the amount of time they have to stage there tickets at insane prices.

Reading previous peoples posts, giving "seniority" to us previous burners, or people in the bay area, etc. is just fucking dumb. People that have worked for the event, Cafe, DPW, Lamplighters, Temple crew, etc. this i could see. But no offence, not everyone who "lives" in black rock city, USA. is a resident of the USA. there are thousands of people who travel thousands of miles, across oceans, to attend. san fran is a whole 325miles from gerlach. i come from vancouver bc, 800 miles. i have friends that come from toronto.... thats 2500 miles... i know people in australia, london, etc....

What they could do, is allocate X amount of tickets for Cafe/Temple/Lamplighter/Conclave/etc, all necessary participants, at either reduced or free that is seperate from or taken out of the totality of non-participating participants.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Nerdling » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:16 am

^ I think I'm with Joshy on this one.

Sure, it still sounds like a stupid idea, but maybe there's more to it than we know. It has been thrown around that the rounds keep going until everyone has a ticket, or anything to that effect, but certainly they're not stupid enough to leave the ENTIRE thing to chance.

To sum up, yea it's dumb, but all may not have been revealed yet. Who knows, maybe we're getting Punk'd :wink:

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by deutlich » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:19 am

jeezy peezy -- haven't yet seen a thread explode so quickly.

and because i opted to stay "off the grid" while on this 3day, i missed all this info till now. should be fun catching up on the thread...

I will say this, though, the lottery system and lack of full details is causing all sorts of nervousness.

hopefully, planning & being prepped will work itself out though.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by mgb327 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:25 am

{(EDIT) refers to post from Trilobyte}....to @mgb327 - it may not seem important, but do not confuse the word 'Lotto' with the ticket lottery system. In the case of a lotto game, millions more participants vying for one big winner (or a small pool of tickets with an appreciable prize). That's not the case here. There will likely be something in the neighborhood of 55,000 'wins' (opportunity to purchase a ticket at whatever price, though my number is pure speculation), and (guessing based on historic patterns) 60,000 to 65,000 participants vying for those wins.

Trilobyte, I have a very high respect and regard for you, and that is huge, as I don't hand those words out often. My friends will attest to that. I am trying to get my heart back into the 2012 burn, but honestly, this all reminds me of when I found out my wife/sig. other was cheating on me. Same sadness. there may be 55,000 wins, but you also say there might be 5,000-10,000 losers. That is a gamble. No matter what the odds, my money, preparation, work and heart don't count if I have to wait on the roulette table to stop. I am sorry I am such a Debbie Downer here, but even the idea that I "might win" a ticket is impossible to accept. I don't take odds. Let me pay the TOP PRICE right now for a ticket, and I can see if I can get my mind and heart back into the thing I loved the most in my life.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Bob » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:45 am

lemur wrote:who gets to decide who is a true burner?
We do. We do.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by MyDearFriend » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:55 am

Here's where the randomness of a lottery has already had a negative impact on our next Burn:
unjonharley wrote: I feel the same way.. Had couple of project in the works.. My heart quit them last night..
And junglesmacks et al I hear what you are saying about thinking logically about this and all that bullshit. The thing is, that creativity and enthusiasm do not come from the dispassionate-logical-front part of the brain. Most people who dream and build and drag these fantastic projects out to the playa are driven from a place much lower down. They throw their hearts into this effort. And when the heart withdraws from a creative project, all that's left is the drudgery, diminished or enhanced by a cold cost-benefit calculation...

You should also consider that what powers BRC is not just creative desire but a deeply internalized belief in hard work and personal responsibility. The spontaneous in-the-moment mind-blowing experience of BRC rests on an irreplaceable base of solid, long-term, confident preparation. That is what gets us from "I WANT to do this" to "I CAN do this" and "I WILL do this." The lottery for tickets is a heavy blow to that belief and seriously undercuts participant empowerment on an emotional level. No amount of logical argument and well-meaning reassurance will bring that energy back.

So: Random selection of spectators is not a problem. Random selection of participants is something very different.

If the BORG's intention is to limit art and camps and offerings to what can be thrown together in 6 months, then... well that might be interesting too. But it will be very different. And I for one don't think it's "whiny" to grieve for what we have lost.

Edited to add: (((mgb))) I hear you... :cry:
Last edited by MyDearFriend on Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by junglesmacks » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:58 am

MyDearFriend wrote:Here's where the randomness of a lottery has already had a negative impact on our next Burn:
unjonharley wrote: I feel the same way.. Had couple of project in the works.. My heart quit them last night..
The lottery for tickets is a heavy blow to that belief and seriously undercuts participant empowerment on an emotional level. No amount of logical argument and well-meaning reassurance will bring that energy back.

So: Random selection of spectators is not a problem. Random selection of participants is something very different.

If the BORG's intention is to limit art and camps and offerings to what can be thrown together in 6 months, then... well that might be interesting too. But it will be very different. And I for one don't think it's "whiny" to grieve for what we have lost.
I still fail to see how not knowing what tier you are going to get strikes such a huge creative blow to things unless you let it. If you want a ticket, you will get a ticket. They are not randomly selecting who goes and who doesn't.. unless you select for yourself by waiting like many people last year. Don't wait to get a ticket, and you will get a ticket.

This is really.. only.. a big of a deal.. as you let it be. The choice is up to you.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by MyDearFriend » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:04 am

junglesmacks wrote:
I still fail to see how not knowing what tier you are going to get strikes such a huge creative blow to things unless you let it. If you want a ticket, you will get a ticket. They are not randomly selecting who goes and who doesn't.. unless you select for yourself by waiting like many people last year. Don't wait to get a ticket, and you will get a ticket.

This is really.. only.. a big of a deal.. as you let it be. The choice is up to you.
Dude, I like you and admire your work but what you don't get here is that the higher levels of my brain do not control my emotional responses. This is an authentic reaction on my part and the best I can do about it is to be aware and be in charge of my response to it.

Your creative energy might be fueled by logic but mine isn't.

And If you want a ticket, you will get a ticket. sounds like magical thinking to me, anyway. And I don't play that.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by junglesmacks » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:14 am

MyDearFriend wrote: And If you want a ticket, you will get a ticket. sounds like magical thinking to me, anyway. And I don't play that.
It sounds perfectly logical to me :D If you want a ticket.. go buy a ticket. You will get a ticket..


On the other hand.. (besides just having more fingers).. I do hear you and understand that you're upset about this. I hear you. There's nothing wrong with how you feel and I hear you that you're hurt and uncertain and that controls how you feel and prepare for the event. I understand. My attempt is not to discredit those feelings, but to try and take a second to urge logical and calm thinking in place of emotional overreaction to something that is really not the end of the world. We're ok.. we really are :D
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by mgb327 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:32 am

True on the "if you want a ticket, you will get a ticket". But there will be many of us that want a ticket that will not win the CHANCE to buy one. I may be certain I will get a ticket, 100% certain, but it will be at the last minute, and from a scalper. Sell me a ticket, right now, (or in Jan.) for $500 flat, and I will try to get back into this burn. It will really be like those Lotto people, waiting and waiting for the results, pacing the floor. Can we imagine how it will be waiting for FUCK KNOWS how long to see if we are a "winner". Homey just don't play that anymore.


MyDearFriend, you are wonderful....
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by lemur » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:39 am

i barely have words to describe my reactions to the pity party the people hanging it up and calling it quits are taking part in.



are you all gonna eat your hats when you get a ticket without much worry and go to burning man as normal ?
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by MyDearFriend » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:40 am

junglesmacks wrote: It sounds perfectly logical to me :D If you want a ticket.. go buy a ticket. You will get a ticket..


On the other hand.. (besides just having more fingers).. I do hear you and understand that you're upset about this. I hear you. There's nothing wrong with how you feel and I hear you that you're hurt and uncertain and that controls how you feel and prepare for the event. I understand. My attempt is not to discredit those feelings, but to try and take a second to urge logical and calm thinking in place of emotional overreaction to something that is really not the end of the world. We're ok.. we really are :D
It would be pretty to think so, my friend. But the reality, now, is that I will get a ticket only if I am selected. Some other entity is going to decide if I will get that sine qua non for participation.

My brain can compute the odds, devise a winning strategy, and maximize my chances.

But it's my heart that drives me to the playa. My heart provides the energy and enthusiasm. My heart is not swayed by logical arguments. And my heart has left the building, so to speak.

BTW my brain is also telling me that it is STUPID to spend any more time and money on the 2012 Burn until I have my ticket.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by junglesmacks » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:48 am

mgb327 wrote:True on the "if you want a ticket, you will get a ticket". But there will be many of us that want a ticket that will not win the CHANCE to buy one.
That will not win the "chance" to buy one? The only one that decided whether or not you have a "chance" is you. If you want a ticket, go buy a ticket. There will be multiple tier selection lotteries. Get in early.
mgb327 wrote:I may be certain I will get a ticket, 100% certain, but it will be at the last minute, and from a scalper.
That would be entirely your choice. It sounds like you've already made up your mind to be foolish and wait until the last minute. Lottery or not, that's just foolish.
mgb327 wrote:Sell me a ticket, right now, (or in Jan.) for $500 flat, and I will try to get back into this burn. It will really be like those Lotto people, waiting and waiting for the results, pacing the floor. Can we imagine how it will be waiting for FUCK KNOWS how long to see if we are a "winner". Homey just don't play that anymore.
You're taking hysteria and running with it. Since there are MULTIPLE TIER LOTTERIES, you will know pretty much right after each one as your card will be charged. You're not going to be pacing the floor unless you want to be.
mgb327 wrote:MyDearFriend, you are wonderful....
Yes, she is :D
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Elderberry » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:48 am

Yup, shit happens. But it's usually unexpected shit. This shit was planned shit and it's not the same.
lemur wrote:
mgb327 wrote:.. The rest of the BM news seems a moot point now. "my heart quit them last night" says it for me, I turned off the work-shop lights last night, probably won't do anything more in prep. now.


just because you cant be 100% for sure what will happen yer gonna pack it in?


shit.. if i was 100% sure my tent wouldnt blow away or rip to shreds leaving the well placed stakes in the ground burning man would surely be a lot less fun.

as it is, i prepare /as best i can/ for the conditions.. and hope that my plan works the best.


i dont see how this is any different, you can be well prepared and know all about how to make the right shit and do it right at burning man and still get fucked royally.. you cant be 100% sure about anything in life, really.


show those balls youve developed at the burn and treat this the same way.. youll be prepared and have a good chance of everything going right. but hell man, shit happens...

youre prepared for shit happening right?
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Shpilkus » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:49 am

I think the concern is, even if I am diligent (obsessive) about getting my ticket, what is going to happen to the rest of my camp mates who are distracted and not really into paying attention to the details of the ticket lottery? Will there be a run on tickets early this year, and the slackers, of which there are many among us, will simply be shut out?
I don't want to spew out another suggestion of what might work better, but I really hope that this was thought though by BMorg.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by junglesmacks » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:50 am

MyDearFriend wrote: My heart is not swayed by logical arguments. And my heart has left the building, so to speak.

Sigh. This does sum up a good amount of these reactions. Logic has left the building. Can't help anyone there.
Shpilkus wrote:I think the concern is, even if I am diligent (obsessive) about getting my ticket, what is going to happen to the rest of my camp mates who are distracted and not really into paying attention to the details of the ticket lottery? Will there be a run on tickets early this year, and the slackers, of which there are many among us, will simply be shut out?
I don't want to spew out another suggestion of what might work better, but I really hope that this was thought though by BMorg.
..the same thing as last time. They will be assed out on a ticket because they slacked. Radical self reliance. Get your shit together and get your ass to the burn if you want to get your ass to the burn. Momma ain't gonna hold your hand as she shouldn't..
Last edited by junglesmacks on Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by lemur » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:51 am

jkisha wrote:Yup, shit happens. But it's usually unexpected shit. This shit was planned shit and it's not the same.
i am sure for the people who were in line with money in hand when the tickets sold out last year thought it was all planned shit and handled as well..


shit happened..


they had to figure out another way to get tickets, ..same thing that happened in 2011 to people may happen in 2012.. its the same.


you remember the threads from last year, surely..
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Elderberry » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:24 am

lemur wrote:
jkisha wrote:Yup, shit happens. But it's usually unexpected shit. This shit was planned shit and it's not the same.
i am sure for the people who were in line with money in hand when the tickets sold out last year thought it was all planned shit and handled as well..


shit happened..


they had to figure out another way to get tickets, ..same thing that happened in 2011 to people may happen in 2012.. its the same.


you remember the threads from last year, surely..
Except that this year, you can have money in hand and sign up on the first day and still face the possibility of not getting a ticket. IT's A FUCKING LOTTERY. And I don't know about you, but I have NEVER won a lottery in my life. :shock:
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by mgb327 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:52 am

Nor I.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by littlewing2 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:56 am

You should also consider that what powers BRC is not just creative desire but a deeply internalized belief in hard work and personal responsibility. The spontaneous in-the-moment mind-blowing experience of BRC rests on an irreplaceable base of solid, long-term, confident preparation. That is what gets us from "I WANT to do this" to "I CAN do this" and "I WILL do this." The lottery for tickets is a heavy blow to that belief and seriously undercuts participant empowerment on an emotional level. No amount of logical argument and well-meaning reassurance will bring that energy back.
Beautifully stated! These are my feeling exactly. Thank you.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by cpart » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:16 am

Minxy wrote:
unjonharley wrote:What was the highest ticket price last year??
Didn't they do a spike on sales prices when they stopped the walk-in outlet sales? I may be remembering incorrectly. I thought they JRSed to folks that they were stopping walk-in sales and had VERY LIMITED tickets left to buy online at $400-420 or something.
No.

The highest price was $320. People keep saying $360, so maybe they upped the price after I bought mine (mid July)?
Last edited by cpart on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by cpart » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:22 am

junglesmacks wrote:I think the main part of the confusion here is people hearing the word "lottery" and instantly shutting their brain off and thinking thar there will only be one, giant lottery pull.. and that you won't even know until July. It continues to amaze me how panicked and towel throwing people are being. I mean seriously.. you have literally just as much chance of getting a ticket as you did last year. Just as much. In other words, if dont wait until the last minute like you shouldn't be anyway then you will get a ticket. The only uncertainty is what tier.

Why is this concept so difficult to understand? I'm not getting it. We can build things, we can create elaborate works of art and survive in the desert for a week.. but we can't read and understand something correctly? We need 53 different personal venting threads all saying the same thing?

FWIW though, I'm almost betting that the final outcome will not be as originally proposed. Someone, somewhere is reading through this and doing some serious re-thinking.

We can hope, right?
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:35 am

DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU.

DEMOCRACY IS A JOKE !

LONG LIVE THE DICTATORSHIP.

DRINK THE FUCKING KOOL-AID YOU STUPID ASS HIPPIES.


thank you for participating.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Klondon » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:36 am

Normally I go on line and purchase two tickets for my wife and I. Now, as insurance, I'm going to ask x amount of friends to join the lottery as well, knowing that I can always sell any additional tickets that were won using this approach. This is not a unique idea... Is this really what BRC wants?

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Nerdling » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:49 am

cpart wrote: DEY TOOK OUR JERBS!
DERP A DERR...

But seriously though, this whole mess is just putting a negative spin on the whole experience and I don't like it. It's even worse because this would have been my first BM and it was supposed to be a wonderful, possibly life altering experience. But now all this lottery bullshit is really bringing me down.

Rationalize it all you want, be it "If you want a ticket, you'll get a ticket" or "Everything will be okay, pass it on." or "The forces that be will guide us" or whatever, the facts are the facts: there is a chance (however slim) that some of us won't get tickets based purely on the luck of the draw, and frankly I don't like those odds.

So unless they have more details to smoothe this whole thing over (which if they did, they'd have done it long before now just to calm everyone the fuck down) , this situation just blows.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:52 am

BURNING MAN.

NEGATIVELY RE-ALIGNING PEOPLES CHAKRAS SINCE 11/11/11...
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by BMG » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:53 am

I am reserving final judgement until the promised follow up JRS is sent.
That said, the idea that keeps coming back to my mind is, have most or all of the more affordable tickets levels in this "lottery" plan that seems for whatever reason, to be a good idea to BMORG. Make the top tier a first come first served basis for those who need or want to start planning now, can eliminate the uncertainty.
Last year's "Ticketpocalaypse", already looks to be preferable to this, and it will be self-inflicted and deliberate. It clearly has the potential to negatively affect the whole event. It already has at least in some small measure. Last year at this time the creative juices were flowing, secure in the knowledge they could get in line and 100% chance know they would be allowed into the event. This year, as reflected in this thread, there are core groups who are already sudeenly on hold due to uncertainty.
Dear BMORG, It would be good to hear what your motives are, and what it is you think you are accomplishing with is lottery concept.
And in any case there is always 2013 to apply the lessons of 2012 and get it right.
Lastly, with any luck the follow up JRS will make me and this posting look foolish.

Malicious
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Malicious » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:55 am

There are many great suggestions for solutions to this issue on Eplaya and I urge everyone to put in their 2 cents or suffer the consequences of not having spoken up and giving possible solutions. Some I have seen that make sense to me...
1. Send invites for ticket purchases directly to ticket buyers (who have bought a ticket within the last say 3 years)
2. Make the tickets non-transferrable, if the person who bought the ticket cannot go they must sell it back to BM and it will be returned to the pool of tickets

These two suggestions would go leaps and bounds to ensure people who support the event and plan ahead get a ticket....let the rest of the tickets go to whom they may. A lottery open to anyone with internet access would not eradicate scalpers nor ensure the supporters and great artists that make this event what it is get tickets.

Siouxanne
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Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:53 am

Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Siouxanne » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:56 am

‎"- You'll first register for the ticket lottery during a 2-week open registration period. At that time, you'll declare which of the pricing tiers you'd be willing to pay, and provide a valid credit card number.
- After the registration period, we will run separate lotteries for each ticket tier. If your name is selected, at this point your credit card will be billed, and you'll receive a ticket confirmation."

OK, so am I getting this right? Poorer folks (students, low income) who choose to go for the lower tier lottery have a poorer chance to get a ticket because presumably more people apply for that tier. Rich folks who don't give a shit have a better chance to get a ticket because they presumably apply for a high tier with much less competition. (Yeah I know, there are low income grants but are there enough??). This doesn't quite strike me as the spirit of Burningman. Time to organize a local event as an alternative for all the losers (literally this time) who don't get a ticket.

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