New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

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Zipper
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Zipper » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:13 pm

[quote="Stickygreen"][quote="Zipper"]
I saw those "sales" too. I know that there was a contingent of burners who were bidding up auctions in order to: outbid actual buyers, win the auction, then reneg on the payment, leaving the seller having to re-list the ticket and go through the same process all over again. The object being to repat the process enough time to leave the seller with no real sale up to gate opening, and thus punish him for trying to scalp a ticket. I don't beleive that the $10,000 auction was ever paid for. It was a shil bidder not someone who actually wanted the ticket . Oh yeah, remember the one auction priced at $1,000,000? That one made the local tv news. Did the seller actually get a mil? Of course not.

What I noticed watching the ebay sales was that after the initial "Sold Out" announcement, when people panic-ed and bid prices way up, the high inital prices quickly gave way to a downward trend where prices approached actual costs of acquiring a ticket from Burning Man.[/quote]

your probably correct that the $10,000 Ebay auction was never paid, but it was a legit contract, and is a credible reference, if not for this discussions sake, but for the reference to the ticket scalpers that are eyeing up BM to make a buck next year. They see that kind of shit and get excited!

Also that particular auction that I cited, ended a few hours after the "Larry Harvey says 2011 is the last year" bogus thread was going around. That joke got out pretty far, I saw it on Twitter, and Facebook, so an uneducated newbie could have seen that post plus the sell out, and just bought it.[/quote]

There will always be a few folks with more cash than sense. (W.C. Fields: "There's a sucker born every minute") You're probably right that some folks are gonna get exicited and see if they can make some dough. But reality will eventually hit and a sustainable price range will emerge. I think the price trend is downward because potential buyers who may have actually bid on earlier auctions but were outbid, end up getting discouraged and throw in the towel and stop bidding, deciding to wait until next year or take a cruise instead.

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wh..sh
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by wh..sh » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:14 pm

mgb327 wrote:Well, after re-reading JRS, and the forum here, I did what any non-gambler would do in this situation. All ahead STOP. I just went to the work-shop and ...turned off the lights. I will not invest any more time or money into something I may or may not "win" a chance to go to. I drive 6000 miles round trip. Yes, thats about $1600.00 in fuel, as well as the 6 days of hard driving. Since I am against gambling, I will not chance investing any more into my trip from here. I would hate to be finished and ready to go and find out late summer I can't. And the next year? Nope. Not gonna do it. Really saddened. Really.
This is not like gambling at all. They want you to pick the tier you want when your register for tickets.
They will randomly pick people (just like lots) lets say 10,000 people for tier 2 ticket range. They want your CC info
to quickly process the tickets if you are selected. If you don't get selected, you won't lose any money.

I am not even sure if I should be worried. If I get the tickets, I will show up. Otherwise there is always ePlaya :)

This is the part where I go and read the thread "sneaking into Burning Man" 8)
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Sgt Pepper » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:17 pm

I think this is very dangerous. Our clan was planning to spend $25k for our camp and building a mutant vehicle. Now there is chance members of our clan wont be able to go and I doubt anyone will want to take a chance spending money on something they might not be able to attend.

Bad idead and dangerous.

And what's to stop one person from having all his friends enter the lottery and they win selling him their tickets who in return can turn around and sell them for a higher price?

Joel
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by javaman1145 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:17 pm

I live in Copenhagen, Denmark. It is already hard enough to fly home (my actual home is in the US) and then go all the way to the playa. I honestly can say that this system will probably cause me not to go to Burning Man in the future.

I'm just really sad now :?

oh and too all you damn dirty hippies

I DO PLAN AND I DO BURN SO stfu

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shroom
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by shroom » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:18 pm

Jammies wrote:This is a really terrible idea for a number of reasons.

1. Large camps may end up losing key members due to sheer bad luck.
2. Small camps may end up losing people who are NECESSARY to actually get there (i.e: transportation).
3. Families might end up with one member getting a ticket and another member not, meaning the entire family can't go.
4. Bands (I'm not even talking about the popular ones) might lose a member for no reason.
5. For people with low limits on their credit cards, it means they have to constantly monitor their usage so their card doesn't get declined (instead of having the correct balance ready at the right moment).
6. And yes, it screws with people's cost planning.

People can say this is "whiny entitled bullshit" but really, this event is supposed to be about having fun and a good time. Getting out there is stressful enough, what with all the planning and expenses, and this just adds the stress of uncertainty. Which camp member will end up fucked out of a ticket due to sheer bad luck? Which limited-income person will get placed into the highest tier of tickets due to random chance?

If scalpers are the issue, make the tickets non-transferrable! If someone wants to sell their ticket, have them send it in, destroy it, and issue the new person a new ticket for a nominal fee! That solves so many of the "scarcity" problems out there all by itself, which would be far easier to implement and far more popular to boot.
I agree with you!
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by unjonharley » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:21 pm

ygmir wrote:seems as long as not too many more than 50K people apply for the lottery, it won't matter anyway........perhaps the "tier" you get, but, otherwise........
I'm so happy you can pay top dollar..

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wh..sh
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by wh..sh » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:22 pm

Jammies wrote:This is a really terrible idea for a number of reasons.

1. Large camps may end up losing key members due to sheer bad luck.
2. Small camps may end up losing people who are NECESSARY to actually get there (i.e: transportation).
3. Families might end up with one member getting a ticket and another member not, meaning the entire family can't go.
4. Bands (I'm not even talking about the popular ones) might lose a member for no reason.
5. For people with low limits on their credit cards, it means they have to constantly monitor their usage so their card doesn't get declined (instead of having the correct balance ready at the right moment).
6. And yes, it screws with people's cost planning.

People can say this is "whiny entitled bullshit" but really, this event is supposed to be about having fun and a good time. Getting out there is stressful enough, what with all the planning and expenses, and this just adds the stress of uncertainty. Which camp member will end up fucked out of a ticket due to sheer bad luck? Which limited-income person will get placed into the highest tier of tickets due to random chance?

If scalpers are the issue, make the tickets non-transferrable! If someone wants to sell their ticket, have them send it in, destroy it, and issue the new person a new ticket for a nominal fee! That solves so many of the "scarcity" problems out there all by itself, which would be far easier to implement and far more popular to boot.
I do see why this might be a big deal for large camps/bands and such.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Eric » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:24 pm

*sigh*

A) We have no idea how the system will work yet. All this Sturm und Drang is pretty much about change, not about how the lottery will actually work, since we don't have those details. If you're one of those people who's purchased your ticket in Jan-Mar before, you should be fine now.

B) The credit card requirement: if you're someone who doesn't or won't use one, or if you're like me and you can't have a couple of hundred dollars floating around on your regular card waiting to randomly be withdrawn, there is the option of getting a pre-paid credit or debit card (hell, Western Union even has them). Load up the money you're going to use for your ticket on there, send that number to the LLC, put the card in a safe place. If you get a lower tier than planned or in the unlikely event you don't get a ticket- just take the money off & put in your regular account.

I now return you to your regular freak-out, already in progress...
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lucky420
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by lucky420 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:27 pm

ahh Eric a breath of fresh air...sigh
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by storkinsj1 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:29 pm

Hi and thanks for all you do for the community.

I am hoping your early announcement on the lottery system is a way of testing the waters. I know you'll get plenty of feedback regardless. Here's mine, delivered gently :)

I believe that it would have been highly probably that when the tickets go on sale january 2012, we'd be sold out in 1 day. I am guessing you suspect the same; thus the lottery.

I am disappointed though because now that I have planned to be there right on time on January X... I'm now back to a "maybe I get to go". Very disappointing.

I know you've thought about this a lot. Here's the cons as I see them:

I think a lottery system won't prevent scalping. Making it harder to guarantee tickets will only drive up the scalping price. At this point plenty of opportunists will enter the lottery only to resell. If they don't get a ticket it doesn't matter to them. If they do... They make 200 to 300 bucks on the upsell.

I do have an idea that may help. It may seem a little crazy at first... but why not offer it up:

Do a "physical sale" first. Maybe limit the number of tickets sold this way... maybe not! Have sales in San Francisco, San Jose, L.A., Chicago, Seattle, New York, Austin, New Orleans, Washington D.C. etc.

With a physical sale, the people who REALLY care will wait in line. A LONG time. I will be one of those people. It has the potential to separate those with the will power to go from those who are opportunists. The potential for profit on tickets will not filter out all the opportunists from waiting in line... However, you couple that with the need to travel to get the tickets in physical locations... and you start to REALLY filter out the bad element.

It's unfortunate that Ticketmaster may be the best way to do this, which would tack on a price to all of those tickets. If you limit the number of tickets you sell during that first sale, it doesn't keep those who don't want to pay more for the ticketmaster fee from getting to attend.

A thought. I know I'll do what I need to do to go. My fear is that the lottery won't prevent me from paying $500 again. It will just make it take longer and be more unsure.

ANOTHER CON:

Stretching valid ticket sales into the summer may disincentivize people from attending. Why would I go to great lengths to build art and cars if I can't be guaranteed that I can attend?

It seems critical that those who are willing to invest that kind of effort are able to attend if they have the will and the $$. I will leave the details up to you on how to solve that one :)

Big challenges on the horizon! I know you will do the right thing.

Peace Brother.

Greg

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by thisisthatwhichis » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:34 pm

That's great Eric, if you are only buying one ticket... put your bid at $320-350, that's maybe do-able. But I plan to buy three (and gift one)..... I don't usually have $1000-1200 "sitting around" before or right after X-mas......

This Lottery is a real fuckin stupid idea........
TITWI

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Stickygreen » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:35 pm

Zipper wrote: There will always be a few folks with more cash than sense. (W.C. Fields: "There's a sucker born every minute") You're probably right that some folks are gonna get exicited and see if they can make some dough. But reality will eventually hit and a sustainable price range will emerge. I think the price trend is downward because potential buyers who may have actually bid on earlier auctions but were outbid, end up getting discouraged and throw in the towel and stop bidding, deciding to wait until next year or take a cruise instead.
you're correct the price trend was downwards last year. After the sell out the average Ebay ticket price was about $900, then it dropped to about $450 in the week before the event.

will this hold true for this year? who knows? if your correct that allot of people fake bidding we're to be credited with the lower Ebay ticket prices as time went on, and not just demand drying up, then will we see that kind of action again this year? (i hope so)

Just to be clear, I don't think the auction will deter scalpers, or fix the scalping problem. My original post was to shed some light on the BMorg's thought process in this decision.

Where I live we hosted the winter Olympics about 2 years ago, there were millions of tickets available via a lottery system, to all kind of events, and Scalpers bought a huge chunk of tickets. This Is a tactic they know how to deal with, and I believe the potential profit on Burning Man will justify there entrance into this market. But without knowing the details of the BM lottery plan, it's still to early to have an opinion of how effective this plan will be to limit the scalpers profits.
)'(

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by unjonharley » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Eric wrote:*sigh*

A) We have no idea how the system will work yet. All this Sturm und Drang is pretty much about change, not about how the lottery will actually work, since we don't have those details. If you're one of those people who's purchased your ticket in Jan-Mar before, you should be fine now.

B) The credit card requirement: if you're someone who doesn't or won't use one, or if you're like me and you can't have a couple of hundred dollars floating around on your regular card waiting to randomly be withdrawn, there is the option of getting a pre-paid credit or debit card (hell, Western Union even has them). Load up the money you're going to use for your ticket on there, send that number to the LLC, put the card in a safe place. If you get a lower tier than planned or in the unlikely event you don't get a ticket- just take the money off & put in your regular account.

I now return you to your regular freak-out, already in progress...

Sorry old pal, You don't get it.. I'm very poor and can not bid against the big boy..
I can only bid in the low teirs.. The odds could be 50000 to me/1

I can not build a MV or art work on just the chance my name will come up..

We are talking about one hell of a lot more than the price of a ticket..

How much time alone should I invest on just a chance..

The thing is riged.. So like the other guy said. " go to the shop and turn off the lights"

OH! look e some on won the lottery..

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by VultureChow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:48 pm

Stickygreen wrote:
Zipper wrote: There will always be a few folks with more cash than sense. (W.C. Fields: "There's a sucker born every minute") You're probably right that some folks are gonna get exicited and see if they can make some dough. But reality will eventually hit and a sustainable price range will emerge. I think the price trend is downward because potential buyers who may have actually bid on earlier auctions but were outbid, end up getting discouraged and throw in the towel and stop bidding, deciding to wait until next year or take a cruise instead.
you're correct the price trend was downwards last year. After the sell out the average Ebay ticket price was about $900, then it dropped to about $450 in the week before the event.

will this hold true for this year? who knows? if your correct that allot of people fake bidding we're to be credited with the lower Ebay ticket prices as time went on, and not just demand drying up, then will we see that kind of action again this year? (i hope so)

Just to be clear, I don't think the auction will deter scalpers, or fix the scalping problem. My original post was to shed some light on the BMorg's thought process in this decision.

Where I live we hosted the winter Olympics about 2 years ago, there were millions of tickets available via a lottery system, to all kind of events, and Scalpers bought a huge chunk of tickets. This Is a tactic they know how to deal with, and I believe the potential profit on Burning Man will justify there entrance into this market. But without knowing the details of the BM lottery plan, it's still to early to have an opinion of how effective this plan will be to limit the scalpers profits.

Now that I'vehad a while (and half a bottle of wine) to calm down, I see how this is supposed to help the situation, though the most elegant and scalper-buting solution would still be non-transeferrable tickets.

So.. my thoughts...

1) After it sold out in 2011, there was no longer any guarentee that you could save up all year and buy a ticket later in the year. In fact, you're no longer "guarenteed" a ticket at all. If they are staggering lotteries over a long period of time, thn this adresses these concerns a bit.

2)The staggered "auction style" pricing works against Scalpers. If they buy too high, they lose out when lowerprices are available. They're only really incented to buy at a price lower than the equilibrium. Based final ebay sales from last year, it seems that is somewhere around $400-450. But, that means they can still game the system at the say $300 level, and that works against those who really can't afford the higher tiers.

3)Planning. Though I will wait to see how this actually works, it seems to be the most problematic for artists and theme camps that depend on a large number of people dedicating months to a project. If you are not among the early lucky winners, how do you plan or invet in the type of community projects that are the very heart of burning man.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Bob » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:49 pm

Only two thoughts --

1) It may take days or weeks for Cowboy Angel to catch up on the conspiracy angle.

2) Might be helpful for the org if new eplaya users fill in their profiles wrt Location, etc.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by mdmf007 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Hmmm, we will see how this goes down soon enough.
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by BMG » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:54 pm

Advanced planners do keep these JRS quotes in mind . . "The first registration will start before the end of November. " and . . ."There will be several consecutive lottery rounds." Sounds like there will be more than one chance to gamble.
Reading all these entries, at this time I would vote for one price tier and first come first served.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by gypsymonkey » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:55 pm

Living the dream!

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by unjonharley » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:57 pm

Bob wrote:Only two thoughts --

1) It may take days or weeks for Cowboy Angel to catch up on the conspiracy angle.
That was written in the JRS.. The fix is in.. Word lottery means riged..

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Lady V » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:04 pm

As a person with enough money to build a camp and buy a ticket at whatever tier there is (although one always would like to save what one can, especially now), I feel absolutely horrible for those who are going to plan, scrimp and save and will end up paying more than they would've last year.

It is obvious that those of us who can pick the top couple of tiers are going to get tickets, because there will be fewer people at those levels.

It's the people who are struggling who are going to be disappointed. And...you can only put your name into ONE TIER.

Should've given out numbers like the draft. Those who planned ahead would know they needed a number. Those who didn't, wouldn't. That, and end ticket transferability, and there is no problem. Organizers chose not to do that. Why ever not??

Doing it this way ensures more money? People will move up to the highest tier they can for the best chance of being admitted, even if they can't afford it.

2012 THEME: CAPITALISM Interesting.

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by moonrise » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:07 pm

Stickygreen wrote:Moonshine you drive from Tahoe, and you try calling me out for being a BRC airportkid... Thats some funny shit!

I spend days in my loaded down truck and spend a small fortune on fuel to get there!

Tahoe hahahahaha! :roll:
I'm sorry. I meant the Reno airport. :lol:

You made it seem as though it was no big deal if you didn't get a ticket, this gave me the impression you just fly on in and rely on a camp. I'm far from random (and have never name called) Truly though, I'm sorry I offended you. :oops: I do try to assist the other disabled, it's one of my main things. A more accessible burn so to speak. It's taken me 18 years to return, and about 45xs the cost of just ONE throw away bike, just to have mobility for myself and the other disabled burners I'm in constant contact with. I think I've forgotten what it's like to be in good health and to be able to physically do whatever my mind tells my body to do. (Moonshine, too funny!)
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by spiralcma » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:08 pm

Why does everyone get the JRS way before I do?

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Spokender » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:09 pm

Try to solve two problems and create many more.

Scarcity? A lottery only affects ticket allocation and greatly increases after market sales :
If 6 friends are serious to go together each could (should!) enter for their maximum number of tickets. Assuming a 4 ticket max, now rather than 6 sales there are 24 tickets being requested. Extra tickets are easily sold (scalped) to those not wanting to chance the lottery. Trust that most of those seriously intending to go will do this in a random system.

First day rush? Any registration system might not help if many are keen to register right when it opens.
SECURITY is an issue when storing credit card information. Hackers dream of this mother load.
The simplest solution to avoid any initial rush of internet traffic would be to make NO main/large announcement about when ticket tiers start to be sold but only slowly let the word out. Registration could easily use time stamps to allocate tickets in order (no lottery) and spread system resources but still creates security concerns.

Solve both :
~ Forget the tier system. Sell all the tickets at the same price till they are gone. Tiers generate high demand for lower priced tickets creating an incentive for scalpers and a rush at the start of each selling phase. There is no longer a benefit to tiers when any perceived target buyer is not likely to have access to a lower tier anyway.

Keep it simple.
~d

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Shinylilypad » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:10 pm

I didn't get the JRS...Hmmmmm maybe I deleted it from my spam. Can someone forward it to me? [email protected]
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by MrMullen » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:10 pm

Eric wrote:
A) We have no idea how the system will work yet. All this Sturm und Drang is pretty much about change, not about how the lottery will actually work, since we don't have those details. If you're one of those people who's purchased your ticket in Jan-Mar before, you should be fine now.
You know what is worst than the BMORG stating they have no idea what to do about tickets? Stating a bad idea on how they are going sell tickets.
BMORG can not make statements about how things are going to be when they are really just putting an idea out there for everyone to flush out. If they are testing the waters, then they should say so. We're all a bunch of smart and dedicated group of people and we can help come up with good idea's.
Eric wrote: B) The credit card requirement: if you're someone who doesn't or won't use one, or if you're like me and you can't have a couple of hundred dollars floating around on your regular card waiting to randomly be withdrawn, there is the option of getting a pre-paid credit or debit card (hell, Western Union even has them). Load up the money you're going to use for your ticket on there, send that number to the LLC, put the card in a safe place. If you get a lower tier than planned or in the unlikely event you don't get a ticket- just take the money off & put in your regular account.

I now return you to your regular freak-out, already in progress...
So let me get this straight. I have to keep upwards of $700 (2 tickets) on a pre-paid Credit Card or Debit card for 6 months because BMORG can't sell tickets properly?
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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Savvy_Savelsberg » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:15 pm

You know, I have really tried to be objective about this and look at it from every perspective, but I really am at a loss here. This really is a horrible decision. I sincerely hope that they are feeling this out right now, will see what a mistake they have made and will go a completely different direction.

Like so many others, I say make the tickets non-transferable. Have Burning Man be the reseller for those who must sell their tickets back (for a small fee of course). Also, lets have just 3 tiers. Low income, regular rate and last minute rate tickets.

Come on BORG, you are making this worse and far more complicated than it needs to be. The best solutions are usually the simplest ones!

Peace and Love,
Savvy

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Jay Johnstone » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:21 pm

MrMullen wrote:I am going to be the first to say: STUPIDEST IDEA EVER!!!!

I AGREE!!!! What is this going to do to larger camps that need their core crew members to be there. Does this mean that the number of "staff" tickets available to a theme camp are going to be even MORE number then last year??

O man.... I sure do hope all works out............ for everyone!!

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Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by unjonharley » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:24 pm

Lets stop this crap about asking the BMorg to listen to any of our suggestions. .

Never have and never will..

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Theres Always One
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:23 pm

Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by Theres Always One » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:26 pm

Radical self reliance starts with having your shit together and getting your ticket before it sells out. Not relying on a lottery to bless you with a ticket.

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea.
Last edited by Theres Always One on Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

theremin_barney
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:11 pm

Re: New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

Post by theremin_barney » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:29 pm

This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. I've been regularly going since 1992. Seriously, so now I can't even plan to go next year? I have to hope to get lucky in the lottery? Do you guys really think you are bigger and better that all of us that have been going and contributing for years? And what of the larger camps with a lot of people that need to be able to coordinate things early and do fund raisers? Are they supposed to do these fund raisers knowing that many of the camp members might not even get a chance to go. These people have been contributing for years to make the event enjoyable for all and you are treating us like we're all just unimportant and ever SO LUCKY to attend YOUR event. :evil: Way to alienate your contributors and dumb down the event to Lollipalooser level. :cry:

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