Why I'm a lottery defender.

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A Jester
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Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by A Jester » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:50 pm

I think the Lottery is:

waaaay better than leaving the system alone
and
better than any of the alternative ideas I had heard around the time of the lottery being announced




So, in that sense I think it's a success.  I certainly think we've learned from the process (already!  and it's not even 1/3 through!) and that if we were to take our current knowledge into the past I imagine the Org would do things a little differently.  




Honestly, I think the Lottery is kinda sexy.  There were two very common problems that usually get ignored by other events - scarcity and scalping.




The Org did not want to ignore these problems.  They certainly could have, there is no financial benefit for the Org to change the ticket system.  The only reason to expend the resources needed to change the ticketing system is because they are Burners and care about the 10 principles and like ponies and double rainbows and all that crap.

I want to repeat that thought, the Org could have easily sat on it's butt and said, "I hope all you people figure out how to get tickets, we print them so we have ours."

They didn't do that because they wanted to help YOU.

And then they came up with this Lottery. Now, no one thinks the lottery is perfect, and there are some flaws that maybe even 90% of us will agree upon (like maybe we don't actually need any tiers). However, they tried. And even though once a day someone posts:
"I told them to just print pictures on the back of the tickets, why didn't they email me back so I could explain how to do that to them?!?"
after they released a FAQ which addressed why they didn't go with names on tickets, and then someone else posts:
"These guys are idiots, they don't know anything about economics or psychology (by which I really mean Game Theory, but I will conspicuously leave that term out of this post) and they should hire someone like me, whose done almost a complete semester at a JC to figure this very simple problem out for them."
after they mentioned that they studied several different ticketing paradigms, and choose one that was successfully used for similar situations, and then someone else posts
"I have been coming to Burning Man since it was on Baker beach, and we used to pee out the fire. I invented bacon and canned beer. But I can't go to Burning Man anymore because I can't afford a full price ticket and now without the extra $140 I need to cover the price difference for a tier 3 ticket, I won't be able to spend $2000 on supplies for the bar I run out there."
they Org is still trying to help YOU get a ticket and go.

So, yeah, they aren't perfect. And I'm not actually a fanboy. I only sound like one here because people are upset about a system that's doing OK. AND it's not done doing it's thing yet.


Also, imagine how pissed YOU (well not YOU, because you'd never let it happen to yourself - but that cool campmate of yours that you like a lot) would be if the event sold out in a day.

Sure, it took months last year, but that was the first time ever. This year would obviously have been different. There's no reason to believe that scalper bots wouldn't have all gotten the tier 1 and 2 tickets. There could be pages and pages of sales on ebay or stub hub for tickets in the $1000+ range.

Yeah, I get it, that might still happen. The scalpers might find a weakness in the STEP or might BUY ALL THE TICKETS in the open sale. That's possible. Heck, it's possible all our credit card info might get stolen and the Russian Mob might move into our house when we're on the playa. Things could go terribly terribly wrong.

BUT that doesn't mean they'd be any better if the Lottery wasn't in place.

SO the next time you complain about how bad the lottery is and how stupid the Org is, just remember that it's only this bad because a bunch of smart Burners who have been doing this for years honestly thought it would be MUCH WORSE if they did nothing.
ZaphodBurner wrote:
The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

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lemur
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by lemur » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:56 pm

this has been voted the best ticket thread
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maryanimal
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by maryanimal » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:19 pm

I agree. I don't have any worries that I won't get a ticket. The lottery is different. And it seemed that the re sale tickets when off with out much of a hitch. I think Org is really trying to make this new lottery as painless as possible. I still think a first come first served is a better way, but as I see it, we'll all get our tickets. There's a lot of options.
Sometimes I'm confused by what I think is really obvious. But what I think is really obvious obviously isn't obvious.

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theCryptofishist
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:33 pm

*general positive non verbal feelings*
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by The CO » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:46 pm

*hardon for A Jester right now*
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by Mofessor » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:02 am

was there ever an explanation given as to why there is an open sale given that they believe the lottery is the way to include the most people?

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The CO
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by The CO » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:29 am

Mofessor wrote:was there ever an explanation given as to why there is an open sale given that they believe the lottery is the way to include the most people?
It might be a buffer for all the whiny buggers that have been decrying the lottery and complaining 'the system has failed" before the lottery has even occurred... That way, they can still have the experience of trying to buy the second they go on sale, and perhaps understand some of the advantages to the lottery.

Eh, maybe that's just why I would have done it.
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lemur
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by lemur » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:41 am

larry harvey stole my milk money
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kayalovelife
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by kayalovelife » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:06 am

theCryptofishist wrote:*general positive non verbal feelings*
What he said :)

P.s. I think the random guy at the bar last night scanning through pictures from the Temple last year was a good sign....Considering I live on a tiny little backpacker's island in Panama, and 90% of the people I meet here aren't even from the states...

Good joojoo, damnit.
P.s. is it the 31st yet?

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RedHeaven
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by RedHeaven » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:39 am

:claps furiously:

It is what it is, Burning Man is one hell of a freakout that loves to enrich and ruin lives. Constant flux, we cannot grapple with tradition as much as we want to sometimes. Shit is blowing up in many ways. It is Neverknowland. There are a few constants....Larry Harvey eat 2 lunches, the man will burn. Thats about it!

I know, I don't have to plan a huge thing so I am not as stressed as some people are. People just need to widen their perspective of why things are changing. It is not the system as it is the demand and paranoia.

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inog
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by inog » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:52 am

Maybe there should be less planning?

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Ratty
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by Ratty » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:59 am

Change isn't ALWAYS bad. (Glass half full attitude).
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illy dilly
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by illy dilly » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:27 am

Why I'm a Lottery Supporter:
dragonpilot wrote:Old System: I either get a ticket or I don't get a ticket.

New System: I either get a ticket or I don't get a ticket.
http://eplaya.burningman.org/posting.ph ... 0&p=788485

Honestly, I liked the old system. But, I'll support the lottery idea and save my judgment tell September 5th, 2012.
Why don't ya stick your head in that hole and find out? ~piehole
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inog
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by inog » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:56 pm

All in all I think the new system is working very well.

Of course I also got my tickets.

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inProgress
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by inProgress » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:56 pm

inog wrote:All in all I think the new system is working very well.

Of course I also got my tickets.
i don't know, I cant help but feel odd going through a "lottery" to obtain something I used to just strait purchase, then paying $100 more for it after a week of making sure my back account didnt dip at the end of my pay cycle. additional, unnecessary consternation. I respect the need to change, but too much, too quick, too greedy grubby feeling? maybe
er,
my problem is until the big "Ticketopalyse" last year where people freaked the hell out on ebay, my only complaints with the ticketing process were technical - server I/O and availability on the big day.

I cant help but thing the only thing we needed was for BMORG to lease a better ticketing platform - host on amazon cloud, some sort of Salesforce app, whatever.

baby and bathwater type thoughts
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theCryptofishist
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:58 pm

inProgress wrote:I cant help but thing the only thing we needed was for BMORG to lease a better ticketing platform - host on amazon cloud, some sort of Salesforce app, whatever.
That would never have made a difference on the selling out of tickets things or the scalping thing. You're focused on your ticket, the issues are larger than that.
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"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by piehole » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:40 pm

WELL.
FUCKING.
SAID.

*beers you*
Start by doing what's necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible.

A Jester
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by A Jester » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:26 pm

inProgress wrote:
inog wrote:All in all I think the new system is working very well.

Of course I also got my tickets.
i don't know, I cant help but feel odd going through a "lottery" to obtain something I used to just strait purchase, then paying $100 more for it after a week of making sure my back account didnt dip at the end of my pay cycle. additional, unnecessary consternation. I respect the need to change, but too much, too quick, too greedy grubby feeling? maybe
er,
my problem is until the big "Ticketopalyse" last year where people freaked the hell out on ebay, my only complaints with the ticketing process were technical - server I/O and availability on the big day.

I cant help but thing the only thing we needed was for BMORG to lease a better ticketing platform - host on amazon cloud, some sort of Salesforce app, whatever.

baby and bathwater type thoughts
It's certainly understandable to not feel like last year was a big problem. I didn't have any problem, and none of my campmates did either. I even scored two tickets (for my little brother and his special someone) after the sellout. So, it didn't seem like that big of a deal to me, either.

However, I think the concern this year wasn't that the event would sell out in four months again. It was that it would sell out in one month (or week, or day... bots are fast). And once it was sold out, the scalpers would have all the time in the world to refine the process of extracting money from our community.

Like I said in my first post, no one should expect this system to be perfect. It's just better than if they had done nothing. Maybe better than if they had chosen any of the other likely solutions. And it's awesome that they went through such effort to try and keep the community safe from negative external forces.

It's not just a tiny bit unfortunate that in doing so they unleashed internal negative forces.

That's cool, too. I'd much rather get in a knock down drag out fight with Karma_cat, whom I may some day share an interaction with on Playa, than with some jerkwad scalper in South Carolina who wants me to pay $1000 for a ticket.
ZaphodBurner wrote:
The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

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18xbrewer
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by 18xbrewer » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:33 am

[link removed]


Yeah the lottery works great :roll: :lol: look at this crap already on sale...........use freaken ID's people and sell one per person
Image

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BBadger
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by BBadger » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:02 am

18xbrewer wrote:Yeah the lottery works great :roll: :lol: look at this crap already on sale...........
Do you also complain that earthquake-proofing has failed mankind and should be abandoned because people still die in earthquake-resistant buildings?
use freaken ID's people and sell one per person
Then when we see an ad, "for $640 we will have the ticket name changed to your name and the ticket will be yours" I would have to ask:
whereisyourgodnow.jpg
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inog
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by inog » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:13 am

I think the 2 tickets per person advance registration buy is a good mid-point. One per person is ridiculous and would require they dismiss the multi-entry safeguards they have as many couples have shared accounts, cards and addresses, essentially making duplicate purchases required for couples to attend.

You cannot stop the scalpers. I repeat - YOU CANNOT STOP THE SCALPERS! The mentality that we need to go all out and have one per person, with photo ID on the ticket, non-transferable, is the kind of over the top response that lead to the criminalization of many drugs. Some people got it in their heads that they needed to stop drug abuse, so they made use (not abuse) illegal. YOU CANNOT STOP DRUG ABUSE! You can limit and control and educate and work to make sure society is best served without impinging on the rights and freedoms of most people, but some undesirable activity must be accepted for the best levels of freedom for the population as a whole. (Also - YOU CANNOT STOP DUBSTEP! YOU CANNOT STOP DISCO! YOU CANNOT STOP RELIGION! - take your pick. )

All that being said, I would support an added tier of the lottery for maybe 10k tickets that could only be entered while at burning man for the following year. It might be nice to have these tickets be $350 (not the most expensive, not the cheapest), non-transferable, and bought at the time. I support the idea that those that have been there before should have some extra bump in the process to getting back in.

But this years system beat Coachella hands down. I thing BORG did good.

(But then again... I also got my ticket.)

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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by A Jester » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:36 am

18xbrewer wrote:[link removed]


Yeah the lottery works great :roll: :lol: look at this crap already on sale...........use freaken ID's people and sell one per person

I'd also like to point out that posting an ad for a ticket is not the same as successfully scalping one. I wonder if maybe these ads aren't just to test the waters (and see how many people will view or bid on the ticket).
ZaphodBurner wrote:
The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

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lemur
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by lemur » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:45 am

it is also worth nothing that the seller has cancelled that particular sale.. (for whatever reason)
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alt12
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by alt12 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:28 am

inog wrote: All that being said, I would support an added tier of the lottery for maybe 10k tickets that could only be entered while at burning man for the following year. It might be nice to have these tickets be $350 (not the most expensive, not the cheapest), non-transferable, and bought at the time. I support the idea that those that have been there before should have some extra bump in the process to getting back in.
This is the best ticket idea I've heard yet.....

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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by A Jester » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:00 pm

Image
ZaphodBurner wrote:
The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

mullingitover
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by mullingitover » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:03 pm

The lottery system is great if you're like the average bay area burner and you make $70something thousand a year. You just overbuy, get your girlfriend/mom/neighbor/dog to enter the lottery for you in addition to your own ticket. You'll get at least enough for you and your lady friend, and maybe a few extra that you can share with campmates. It sucks for poor people, but then poor people are poor because they're lazy, so fuck 'em. (/sarcasm)

Of course, with the aftermarket tickets going for as much as they are, it's also tempting to the average burner to sell those extra tickets for a profit now that the average aftermarket ticket is going for $600+. An enterprising person could fund their RV rental with their extra tickets...

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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by jobennett99 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:13 pm

I was so relieved to find this thread. I couldn't go last year after 3 consecutive burns and have been devastated by all the negative chat and general bad spirit trouble flooding our community. Aside from the fact I think this post is spot on, burners are so much more than this. People are suggesting that the burn will be crap this year just because of the lottery - are we, the burn and everything it stands for really that weak and fragile??! Shame on us if it is.

" I think the concern this year wasn't that the event would sell out in four months again. It was that it would sell out in one month (or week, or day... bots are fast). And once it was sold out, the scalpers would have all the time in the world to refine the process of extracting money from our community"

There is no more thankless position to be in than to have preempted and averted disaster long before its potential has been spotted by anyone else. People don't want to be protected - they want to close their eyes and hope the shit won't hit the fan and then if it does they want someone else to blame.

I'm sure things will be different next year but for 2012, this is what it is. Now lets get on with the important things: living the 10 principles on and off the playa and working with the system to make sure that as many of our community as possible get their tickets at face value.

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theCryptofishist
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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:23 pm

mullingitover wrote:The lottery system is great if you're like the average bay area burner and you make $70something thousand a year.
Do you have any cites on the income of average "bay area" burners?
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"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by A Jester » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:44 pm

jobennett99 wrote: Now lets get on with the important things: living the 10 principles on and off the playa and working with the system to make sure that as many of our community as possible get their tickets at face value.
QFT
ZaphodBurner wrote:
The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

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Re: Why I'm a lottery defender.

Post by ZaphodBurner » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:07 am

"SO the next time you complain about how bad the lottery is and how stupid the Org is, just remember that it's only this bad because a bunch of smart Burners who have been doing this for years honestly thought it would be MUCH WORSE if they did nothing."

Instead, NOBODY IN OUR CAMP GOT TICKETS and a few have decided not to go.

"Much worse" for whom?
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

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