2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by Mitch » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:30 am

lemur wrote:http://www.sfbg.com/pixel_vision/2012/0 ... ain-future

there is no direct quote from Marian Goodell about a confirmation about the 1/3 number, it is mentioned by the writer of the story in this paragraph on the above linked story:

Lemur: They posted an update to that story (it's on the bottom of the page), including:

She recognizes that it's a big problem for established theme camps and art collectives having tickets for only about a third of their members, a figure that she also confirmed.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by funkyjigsaw » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:48 am

I could not agree with this more .... excellent post!
bleurose51 wrote:The 1.7 number quoted was the average number of tickets order per request, i.e., if 100 people ordered tickets, then 70 ordered 2 tickets and 30 ordered 1 ticket, i.e., 70*2 + 30 = 170/100 = 1.7. That number in no way told us how many ticket requests were actually submitted. As noted, it could have been 5000 or 5,000,000 and the average tickets per order would still be valid.

I hear everyone's pain, but I want to point out that as much as everyone wants to blame the "stupid lottery system", I don't think that has anything to do with the problem that has arisen. The problem is simple: last year for the first time, the event sold out, and that has brought out the big-time scalpers in HUGE numbers. They are professionals at gaming a ticketing system, no matter how sophisticated BM thinks its system is. They have huge contingents of people on contract to all purchase tickets in mass quantities. The one thing that the lottery system MAY have done that was unfortunate is actually make it TRIVIAl for a large number of scalper 'reps' to order tickets easily. Since the lottery had essentially no waiting time, all you need is a large number of people with a large number of credit cards to submit many many thousands of 2 ticket orders and oversubscribe the lottery. If all those people had to fight the old "first-come first-serve" system, their time investment might not have been adequately compensated. However, I still believe that the sell-out last year prompted the oversubscription, and that whether we had a lottery or a first-come first served system, the same thing would have happened as the scalpers mixed together with the real burners and many real burners would not have been able to buy tickets.

We have never had a situation like this before. This is the first time the previous year's event has sold out, and the impact of that is totally unknown, but probably easily predictable. If there is money to be made, there will be profiteers who will make every attempt to suck all the money out.

The ONLY solutions are (a) increase the number of tickets so substantially that it would scare off the scalpers for fear of having too many tickets they couldn't sell (unfortunately that is not an option given BLM regulation, (b) stop selling tickets in advance and only sell them at the gate, which would clearly prevent scalping, but would be just as much havoc on the community since people could actually trek all the way to the playa and be turned away, and (c) (the best one IMHO) sell non-transferable tickets with some form of identification required. The best idea for this last approach is to require that you submit a photo when you purchase tickets and that photo would be printed onto the ticket. You could purchase TWO tickets for yourself with your photo on them, and you could bring ANY guest, but you would have to be there with the guest at the gate, otherwise the second ticket would be useless. This would permit a limited amount of adjustment (within theme camps for instance) but would completely prevent scalpers. The only way to get out of going once you have a photo ticket is to return the ticket to Burning Man and get a refund. You would NOT be permitted to designate a "transferee" (that would defeat the whole idea and permit scalpers to game the system again).

My point is that the lottery itself wasn't the cause of the ticket shortage or the extraordinarily weird distribution of recipients. If 150,000 ticket requests had been made to buy tickets using the old system in the first 48 hours of sale, many many of our camp friends would not have gotten their tickets either as many tickets would go to (a) newbies and (b) scalpers.

I think some of the comments are actually on point. This is just another challenge for the people who claim to be true Burners to meet.

I would like to add one more thing. Several comments mentioned that large theme camps are what makes Burning Man "special" and I take issue with that. I love some of what has been done at large theme camps, but I also don't like all of it. That's my choice of course, and I have no argument with the camps doing what they want to do (that is the hallmark of Burning Man). But to say that it is the "right thing" for those camps to have some special privilege to do that is wrong. I think SMALL camps are important and people who come with absolutely NO idea what they are doing or what they want to do are important too, in fact just as important and maybe more important. Individual people I meet at Burning Man who I talk with at the temple or who I just encounter at a bar or sitting out on the Esplenade, those people are what make Burning man special for me, and frankly I spend very little time at the large theme camps. This past year I didn't even see any of the camps except for a very few around where we were camped until Sunday when many of the camps were already breaking down.

I think what has made Burning Man interesting is precisely that it ISN'T defined in some categorical way. I don't think that BM did this with the intent of "shaking things up" but if that is what happens, then radical self-reliance just has to step in and help us adjust things. If many of the large camps don't show up this year, will that be bad? No, I don't think so. It will be different, but it won't be bad. If they do, that is good too, but in the end, it should ALL be good, no matter what happens. I do feel the pain and sorrow of people who have gone for many years and now may not get a chance to go, but there have been years I have missed attending because of other reasons in my life, and I am still alive and well and missing Burning Man didn't fuck my life up in any terrible way. In fact, if anything, coming back after a hiatus was a good thing. It was a rebirth each time, and that was exciting.

Maybe that is what the universe has in store for all of us this year. Its a wild ride, and we all just have to strap ourselves in, hang on and enjoy it wherever it takes us.

Bleurose

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by alt12 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:16 am

Paperboy wrote:What amazes me is why this was not foreseen. First we have in our community as mentioned earlier, the minds to do this right.

Second, all of our names are in the data base. I know because they send me a post card each year.

How hard would it be to set up a system that ask past burners if they wanted to buy a ticket?

How obvious was it that burners were going to buy more than two tickets if they could, so their camp mates could come.

I don't know of anyone(12 year burner, this would have been 13)that had any plans for the extra tickets they didn't get, except to sell them at face value to fellow burners that either couldn't buy now, or didn't.

Not sure if people like that got kicked out, but the ones i know that tried that got none! Surely it would be anticipated that we'd want to help each other!

Now that Marian confirms that it's about one third, we have to seriously consider alternatives. Most of us in theme camps simply can not go through yet another anxiety laced ordeal. First it was placement. Then it was Early Arrival passes. Now we don't even know if we get in? All so we can build a city.

And definitely agreed that shitty weather is the best thing that can happen at BRC... Separates the women from the girls so to speak and guarantees that people who aren't serious about bm don't come back.... I wasn't there for 2001, but heard about it (the flood year, no?) and it sounded awful!

I realize, and know that the community of Black Rock City is not the LLC. We are an amazing group of people that surmount all sorts of odds to make this happen(and if you haven't been for 10 or more days in a row, believe me, you can't know what i'm talking about)build the city, and give away whatever art, love, or other gifts many of us work on all year to bring. There is, or must be a breaking point.

Many of us are indeed contemplating alternative situations. Why? Because we need each other. We are after all burners, and we do have an ethos. The majority of ones I know, do not and will not buy scalped tickets, we just won't. It would be like selling our souls.

We will find a way to be together again. It might not be called BRC any more, but damn it, you can't keep a good burner down.

I'm pretty sure if a bunch of rich sparkle ponies show up, it will be kewl for them for a while, but without the vibrancy of the city, burning the man, and a few art pieces are not going to cut it. Then the worst weather of Burning Man history will come, something that will rival 2001's condition Alpha, and that will be it.

2013 no one but hard core burners will want to come. That is, if we didn't figure out something better to do.

Either way, LLC has a lot of work to do to try to convince us to come back, build the city, make it work, and keep the faith.

To say our faith is shaken I think at this point is an understatement.

Courage.

I agree 100%. I absolutely refuse to buy a scalped ticket. If I can't get face value one I'm not going. Its simple as that. Perhaps this is a year that big camps, big art-projects, large-scale everything takes a year off... Then perhaps "rich sparkle ponies" (love it, !!! hahaha) won't be so enthused to return the following year, and more importantly, won't go back to London and tell their other rich sparkle ponies about this "amazing rave in the desert"

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by AntiM » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:19 am

We could sell fake sparklepony tickets and give them directions to a big ole fake sparklepony corral!

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by mshaman » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:30 am

AntiM wrote:We could sell fake sparklepony tickets and give them directions to a big ole fake sparklepony corral!
If they were HOT sparkleponies, I'd probably go there and try to ride one, rather than waiting for a ticket which is now out of my control. :-) But we digress.
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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am

Mitch wrote:
Paperboy wrote:http://www.sfbg.com/pixel_vision/2012/0 ... ain-future

and as for being THE, i got the name from delivering the BRC Gazette, when everyone was called a District Representative. To PC for me! Did that for 5 yrs till we got all Disney-fied.

Hey, our city changes year by year, and not always for the best, but this has been a Tsunami.
PC? It was meant to be pronounced "DisRep"

Thanks for the Marian citation...that indicates something on the order of 25,000 tix ended up with newbies, scalpers or a combination of both (assuming Theme Camps are a good proxy for Experienced Burners)
Theme camps getting 1/3 the tickets they need is not the same as 2/3 of the tickets ended up wiht newbies. The inference I'd draw is that 1/3 of the virgins got the tickets they need as well. And that 80,000 (or two thirds of the total requested) got no ticket at all. And the number of "proxy buyers" (through couples with different names, or friends, or reletives) remains unknown. I find the idea that 120,000 people were trying to buy tickets to be astonishing. I'm guessing that we can't see the terrain for the dust storm, but I'm a minority opinion in the boards these days.
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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by JayBobBoy » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:05 am

A very vocal minority...
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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by 1durphul » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:05 am

remi wrote:This lotto is going to separate the self reliant super cool camps, from the pansey sparkle pony wannabe camps. Only the strong will survive. Any wicked camps need help setting up, let me know with a PM and I'll offer my services to help ensure the community gets to experience what you have to offer.
You mut be trolling. There is a difference between being whiney, and knowing how to choose your battles. I can spend three weeks in Europe relaxing and having a fantastic time meeting lovely new people, making friends, drinking, partying, visiting art museums, learning some history, etc... and all I have to do is apply my Burning Man money to plane tickets and sublet apartments. Or, I can spend several months attempting to obtain tickets that may never materialize, or that may turn out to be scams, and go to an event where it'll be lots and lots of understaffed camps that couldn't manage to pull a full crew together and so only went half assed on their normal output.

That isn't whiny. That's called choosing your battles, and making good choices. I've chosen not to fight this one, and instead I'm going to relax and do cool stuff somewhere else.

Glad you got a ticket. Super glad I didn't.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by Paperboy » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:14 am

Thanks Mitch! How the hell are ya?? oh, get a ticket???

We had a nice run there, and what i meant, was disrep was to pc for me, that's all, no disrespect to the Gazette which i'm very proud to have been a part of.

[/quote]

PC? It was meant to be pronounced "DisRep"

Thanks for the Marian citation...that indicates something on the order of 25,000 tix ended up with newbies, scalpers or a combination of both (assuming Theme Camps are a good proxy for Experienced Burners)[/quote]
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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by d6 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:26 am

our 13 years in a row ends this year. we've been everything from 6-70 people in camp size, and over the past 6 years, have averaged about 15.
we heavily collaborate on lots of projects, as well as offering our own staples, but with one single ticket being obtained, we're done w/brc for 2012.

d6
your witty rejoinder just flew over my head.....

no trust fund getting supply buying self-reliant non-bankrolled questionable artistic contributor sacrificing electronics at will build it destroy it clean it haul it financially uninterested uber-bot

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:29 am

"It's clear that the theme camps and art projects are a significant part of the community, and this situation is causing problems for them," she said. "That's the part that will hurt us if we don't take another look at this."

I really appreciate them echoing the sentiment of those of us who build theme camps.

By the way, "theme camp" isn't a bunch of people from Oregon deciding what to call our group of friends and our art. It's something we build for the city, and like all things burners often take for granted, is bigger than what any of us could do individually, and everything we do is gifted to the public, and the public is invited to participate. That's the difference between participating in a theme camps and simply getting a ticket and going to Burning Man and randomly doing whatever occurs to you once you get there.

People on the e-playa and elsewhere have to understand when they say "Well, maybe it'll be better without theme camps" or, that people with theme camps should get off their high horses and stop acting like they're more important."

The Org has acknowledged it. THANK YOU! Please help the theme camps help the Org get tickets to Burners who intend to -participate- so everybody can get working and we can put all of this behind us. \v/
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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by Mitch » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:35 am

theCryptofishist wrote:Theme camps getting 1/3 the tickets they need is not the same as 2/3 of the tickets ended up wiht newbies. The inference I'd draw is that 1/3 of the virgins got the tickets they need as well. And that 80,000 (or two thirds of the total requested) got no ticket at all. And the number of "proxy buyers" (through couples with different names, or friends, or reletives) remains unknown. I find the idea that 120,000 people were trying to buy tickets to be astonishing. I'm guessing that we can't see the terrain for the dust storm, but I'm a minority opinion in the boards these days.
Crypto: I agree 1/3 of newbies probably got the tickets they wanted. The question is, mathematically speaking, how big is the newbie pool? I'm assuming the theme camps are a big enough sample to indicate the entire experience, which is that for every 3 tickets requested, one was received. 43,000 x 3 is 129,000, and if you parse the wording of the Burning Blog item

"As a result, there are a lot more tickets being requested than there are tickets available — an inordinately large number, in fact, and far more than we projected even after last year’s sold-out event."

then 129,000 doesn't seem all that hard to believe.

Newbies are fine, they're part of Burning Man and should be welcomed, though I'd like to see some preference given to Burners, especially from long-running theme camps that provide the services and entertainment that make the trip so worthwhile.

What I really think happened, and I know Trilo disagrees with this (btw, I know him, he's one of the coolest people at Burning Man), is that scalpers overwhelmed the system, especially at the $240 and $360 levels. Those tix carry no risk, it would be the easiest thing in the world to resell them for close to $390, and, given the way things are going, probably for a lot more. I don't believe the system could be 'scrubbed' for scalpers, if that were possible scalpers would have gone out of business long ago.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:03 pm

~shrug~
I just went with if 1/3 was the number who got tickets then that would apply to the newbies as well. It's these strange equations that somehow come out that 1/3 theme camp members got there tickets and 3/4 "birgins" did that I was reacting to. It was a basic calculation, perhaps using 1/3 or mayby 30%, I don't remember. I think we don't really know much right now.
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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by RevDusty » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:24 pm

@pipey
Art projects funded by grants are *not* guaranteed free tickets at all. I was on a large funded art project, and while we did get gift tickets, that didn't happen until mid-summer (if I recall correctly). And it was a nice surprise. No one was working hard on that project for a free ticket, we were working to make an awesome thing.

I'm not really concerned with a village deconstructing...I never thought much of them anyway. Theme camps will morph and fuse and work out some way...maybe not as big and grand as before, and maybe that is not necessary.

Large sound camps: add nothing to the event for me, I go for the art, creativity, and whimsy. No offense intended, just my individual preference, but if they are drastically reduced in number, I don't see any negative for the event.

Whereas, a reduction in art (both big and small), I see as a real issue. Your mileage may vary.

Disclosure: my theme camp is probably in the 20 - 30 % ticketed range. It sucks, and ultimately it is a drain on energy that should go to planning great stuff for the event.
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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by noodlebarbarian » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:27 pm

Thanks for starting this thread, Pipey.

Dave from the White Dragon Noodlebar here. We're in the same situation as everyone else, fewer than a third of our people got tickets. Camp consensus seems to be wait until the STEP program starts and the additional 10K tickets get released, and then make decisions. Personally, I don't think it looks good.

I don't see the complaints about the system as whining, particularly as they relate to theme camps. When tickets sold out last year, there were crickets on our email list. Everyone already had their ticket, most had had them for months. We like to plan ahead. Now we can't do that. This situation reminds me of the early arrival debacle a few years ago, but on a much larger scale. Back then, our issue was coordinating flights and transport from up and down the east coast without knowing how many passes we were going to get, since the org seemed to forget that not everyone lives in San Francisco. As annoying as it was, it didn't threaten our camp. This situation does.

I understand that Burning Man changes, and I don't have any grudges towards first year burners who got a ticket in the lottery. Although radical inclusion seems like an increasingly ridiculous principle, I am still glad that the event is open to all (at least in theory), and I know that the supply / demand problem is a tough one to fix. The org screwed this up, but I don't fault their motives.

But before this, having your shit together was enough. Now it isn't enough. That's not a change I like, and it's one that's likely to prevent me from going this year. Positive thinking isn't useful the way planning is. Positive vibes don't build theme camps; money, time, and energy do. All the "We'll figure it out!" posts strike me as magical thinking, and I find them mildly offensive, but I'm not going to kick the dreamers out of the burner community.

If we can get face value tickets with enough time to plan, we'll go. If we can't, we probably won't. That decision is probably going to be made in March.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by Mitch » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:31 pm

Crypto: What we kind of know is that Theme Camps got about a third of the tix they asked for. That's a big, diverse pool, so that percentage should apply to anybody who bid.

We know that there were 43,000 tix sold in the first 2 sales. Now, the theme camps might have been bigger bidders in the presale, but it's not htat big a number so I think it's okay to combine them. If one in three got a ticket, then there were three times as many tickets sold as won, so 43,000 x 3 gives you a ballpark figure to work with.

The other, perhaps obvious, thing that we know is that non-theme-camp bidders got 2/3ds of the tickets that there are. Some of those will be regular Burners who aren't affiliated with theme camps, some will be Birgins, some will be scalpers.

My feeling is that last year, the demand was no more than 80,000 (of which 55,000 got to go). "Demand" loosely defined as people who bought tickets, people who tried to buy tickets after the event sold out, and people who would've tried to buy if the event hadn't sold out. So, either the demand from Burners grew by 50% this year (120,000ish bids) or the demand from scalpers accounts for some portion of that.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by This Woman » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:10 pm

Hi All, Would posters here please include the name of their theme camp when responding? Not all of you have your name in signatures. Thanks in advance.

The Liver's End still up in the air on whether we'll go. Haven't heard back from everyone, but no core person got tickets. We'll likely keep trying at least through June, but even if we get it, it might be our last call. The lottery is just too burdensome for our theme camp.
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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by havoc » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:30 pm

noodlebarbarian wrote:Dave from the White Dragon Noodlebar here.
huge fan of the noodle bar! :) thanks for all the yumminess you've provided on the playa! :D

i ran a teeny tiny camp/art project last year called the bureau of unclaimed secrets. all told, there were about 20 people in our space - although to do the project again, i'd probably only request space for 5-10 people. i was hoping to do a little yarn shop this year (and would still like to), but i did not get a ticket, nor did any of my 5-10 friends/family who would probably be helping with my project. i try to keep my projects small and reasonable - since i'm traveling from indiana - but that means that i'm doing the vast majority of the planning and paying, so not getting a ticket really stopped me dead in my tracks.

i do intend to keep planning as if i will go, but i will admit that the gears in my head definitely have stopped turning for now and i am focusing again on work and personal goals and less on getting a project going. i feel very much that i am on hold until the end of march. i may find a ticket between now and then...either through STEP or friends or whatever, but if i don't get a ticket in the last-ditch public sale...eesh. that'll be the end of it, i think.
I don't see the complaints about the system as whining, particularly as they relate to theme camps. When tickets sold out last year, there were crickets on our email list. Everyone already had their ticket, most had had them for months. We like to plan ahead. Now we can't do that.
I understand that Burning Man changes, and I don't have any grudges towards first year burners who got a ticket in the lottery. Although radical inclusion seems like an increasingly ridiculous principle, I am still glad that the event is open to all (at least in theory), and I know that the supply / demand problem is a tough one to fix. The org screwed this up, but I don't fault their motives.

But before this, having your shit together was enough. Now it isn't enough. That's not a change I like, and it's one that's likely to prevent me from going this year. Positive thinking isn't useful the way planning is. Positive vibes don't build theme camps; money, time, and energy do. All the "We'll figure it out!" posts strike me as magical thinking, and I find them mildly offensive, but I'm not going to kick the dreamers out of the burner community.
i agree so hard with noodlebarbarian on every word here!

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by DISTRIKT » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:36 pm

alt12 wrote:
Pipey wrote: The same question should be posed to art installations, should it not? They were never the size of infrastructure or headcount as they are now. But yet, are guaranteed group entry. If size is a discussion, it should be posed across the entire event.

I'm sorry but this argument rings so hollow. Syd Gris has been banging this drum for years. Lets see, you have huge well-funded camps like District and Opulent Temple, both of which have the resources of professional event throwers/restauranteurs/bar-owners, etc. behind them. Some, like Opulent Temple, make huge sums of money throughout the year with their affiliated event promotions business (i.e. Opel). Then you have artists that almost universally are on a shoe-string budget. Even the big art projects here are financially challenged whereas the big DJs, for example, are not. Its just not a fair comparison. When you bring Elite Force to perform at District they're not starving. They can come without tickets. And lets not pretend District is run/operated by poor people.

And, hate to be so blunt, but there is much more supply of large-scale sound camps than there is demand. Notice that aside from the 3-5 popular sound camps every years, you have 20 or so sound camps with 50-100K sound systems all up and down 2:00 and 10:00 and well known DJs coming by to perform but no crowds, no audience. They are almost empty. Then you have the 100 or so art-car sound camps. Should they get tickets? They throw huge parties on the playa and draw as big as a crowd as any of the fixed-place theme camps. But again, they are also run by DJs who get paid quite a bit of money and can afford deck out their sound-car with $100K worth of gear which they will use for for-profit events during the rest of the year.

Bottom line, music generates money. Art rarely does. I believe is just that art is subsidized here.

Don't ge me wrong. I love jamming out at all these sound camps, I just don't think they deserve any special accommodation versus any other camp. This has and always will be an arts festival and artists (not musicians or DJs) are the core of the event....Its not the Burning Man Electronic Music Festival its the Burning Man Arts Festival. If it were, I'm sure you'd have free tickets out the ying-yang....
This is the first post to truly upset me. Please take note of this statement: WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR ART GRANT $$$. That is the argument that has been made in the past and I am NOT posing that argument - where did you get that in what I said? I accept that we fund ourselves and we do a bang up job of doing that - when you say we're "well funded" - yes we are well funded - we work our arses off to earn every single $$ that we get. We ask for absolutely nothing in return other than the opportunity to be a part of the gifting culture at BM. To use your argument with regard to this ticket lottery is absolutely inane. We flat out cannot make our camp happen when only 5 out of the 13 of our core membership is ticketed/allowed into the festival (or 15 of the 50 campers who come in early to set up & stay late to strike). Art installations are given a set amount of tickets (at a discount, btw) to come in & build/install their pieces & strike them post burn. All I was arguing is that if larger scale project theme camps are a valued part of burning man, they should receive a similar ticket consideration.

You can bash sound camps all you want, but I love what we do and it means a tremendous amount to all 13 of us to bring this gift to the playa - for some reason, quite a few people show up each day at our camp so they seem to enjoy it as well. I look out at the crowd each day at sunset and have a daily cry over all of the smiles and happiness I see - it's why I do what I do. I absolutely love it.

On your point of who runs DISTRIKT and our individual W2 earnings: I will not run through person by person, but will divulge that we have quite a few struggling self-employed core members of the 13 of us who barely scrape the $$ together to get a ticket. Your assumptions are grossly inaccurate and rude. Really? Are you really going to make statements like that about people you don't even know?

Lastly on music vs. art. This argument will forever exist within the context of this festival. Music IS art to us and we will maintain that. To reiterate, we are NOT asking for grants nor will we ever. As a new non-profit 501c3, we are actually gifting our first art grant ever this year to try to bring the 2 sides together as one at DISTRIKT. That's right, we are a NON PROFIT organization. We are not asking for special treatment. We are simply at risk of not being able to come back to Burning Man which seems would make you quite happy so I'll leave it at that. It saddens us immensely since we all love what we do or we wouldn't spend 10 months of the year working to create what you've seen on the playa.

PS - Elite Force has never asked for a penny when he DJ's at a fundraiser much less Burning Man.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by graidawg » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:42 pm

no fandango? that truely makes me sad, though i do expect to see a few more theme camps pull out, there are a lot of camps out there that require most of the people in it to simply exist, barbie death camp, apokollyptika and other large camps probably have the membership to transfer essential duties to others who do have tickets.

i dont like that so much of what makes BRC special is going to have a hard time geting home, that many or some camps simply wont be there. I am however excited that smaller camps which barely register on the BM radar if they make it will be far more significant it will drastically change the demographic and feel.

maybe this will be the end of Burning Man as we know it or even the actual end, with people finding other places to go or you guys coming to europe for nowhere next year. I am just glad I got to go the year BM sold out and the year BMorg killed the golden goose (if that is the case)
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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by asaxon » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:43 pm

From the time the lottery was introduced I saw black but that is now changing. I see how everyone, BM and participants, are working on new directions, and I'm happy with the feel of things even if I can't really put it in words. Something is dying, but I also see the light of something new being born - like moving to being "peers"
with BM rather than "children". The posts in this thread have so much more maturity in them.

Perhaps this is a right of passage for BM itself...

I think BM, while keeping things secret as a way of making it harder for scalpers, inadvertently introduced more fear into the system which only helped them. I think they will find that openness will pay far greater dividends. In sharing everything, including the difficulties, they will find a very supportive community, while in secrecy they only take the blame.

As much as this is a tough time for the BM experience, and there will be many casualties, I'm also happy to see many people stepping into their own power and working together. I think what makes scalping such a big issue is fear. If we work together - camps, and BM, as peers, then there will be much less fear and the scalpers will have much less to work with.

It's not so much about the practical matters (not that they are simple), but about the relationship between BM and the participants, which is changing, and from my vantage point it seems heading in a new and good direction.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by JimiFritz » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:52 pm

We've come from Canada with a theme camp for the last few years.
This year half our members didn't get tickets.
The system sucks.
We will not be able to contribute this year, or any other year with a lottery.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by havoc » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:54 pm

asaxon wrote:I think BM, while keeping things secret as a way of making it harder for scalpers, inadvertently introduced more fear into the system which only helped them. I think they will find that openness will pay far greater dividends. In sharing everything, including the difficulties, they will find a very supportive community, while in secrecy they only take the blame.
this!

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by alt12 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:02 pm

DISTRIKT wrote:We are not asking for special treatment. We are simply at risk of not being able to come back to Burning Man which seems would make you quite happy so I'll leave it at that. It saddens us immensely since we all love what we do or we wouldn't spend 10 months of the year working to create what you've seen on the playa.
But that's exactly what you are asking for. Large sound camps should get special treatment (i.e. gift tickets, discount tickets, etc.) That's what you are saying, no? That is special treatment. Last time I checked there were several hundred registered theme camps at burning man. To select a few "large camps" or a few "large sound camps" and provide them with treatment that other theme camps are not provided with is by definition special treatment. That is what I object to. You are inferring that I have an axe to grind with Distrikt or large scale sound capes of all stripes. Nothing could be further from the truth. I love Distrikt, I've danced there many times and Deep End before that and truly hope you guys make it back. There are a lot of large camps that I hope come back I just don't buy the argument that they should be subsidized. On the other hand, I think subsidizing art (visual art if you will) at an art-festival in a country that as a whole provides minuscule funding to art does make sense.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by welcotar » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:02 pm

Warp zone is ~8 tickets short, many of our friends are also short.
Mind sharing your stats so we can get an idea about numbers here,
rather than just doom and gloom anecdotes?

Here's a short Google docs form: http://goo.gl/x363A

I'll add up the numbers and post them if I get enough useful responses,
thanks.
Last edited by welcotar on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by mshaman » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:03 pm

To comment on some earlier posts about numbers:

The problem is that we don't have any real numbers to work with, enough context to draw meaning from the numbers we have, and at this point, because BMOrg has probably regretted the half-thought-through announcements that it has made (which only contributed to the hysteria and speculation), I don't expect any numbers, any real information to come out soon. In a PR debacle such as this, it's better to shut up and have people wonder if you're stupid than to open your mouth and prove it... so I think we'll hear nothing but crickets until they think they've got a handle on it.

In the mean time, my attempts at speculation have been fruitless. I cannot draw any conclusions that I feel are reliable regarding who got what and how many tickets are out there relative to demand because there is one glaring hole in the usual theories: I have checked with hundreds in my burner network and no one, NO ONE, is sitting on a bunch of tickets. I don't know how many STEP tickets will be out there, but it's a bit of a mystery that none of them are surfacing anywhere.

I get the feeling that there is something fundamental that happened in the ticket process that Borg hasn't discussed yet. It may take a long time to come out, but the data don't add up, the numbers feel all wrong in my gut no matter whose projections I look at, like when Copernicus realized that the mathematical corrections for the sun's orbit around the earth were getting too outrageous to be viable. To borrow a phrase, Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
The road of life is littered with flat squirrels who couldn't decide.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by DISTRIKT » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:08 pm

noodlebarbarian wrote:Thanks for starting this thread, Pipey.

Dave from the White Dragon Noodlebar here. We're in the same situation as everyone else, fewer than a third of our people got tickets. Camp consensus seems to be wait until the STEP program starts and the additional 10K tickets get released, and then make decisions. Personally, I don't think it looks good.

I don't see the complaints about the system as whining, particularly as they relate to theme camps. When tickets sold out last year, there were crickets on our email list. Everyone already had their ticket, most had had them for months. We like to plan ahead. Now we can't do that. This situation reminds me of the early arrival debacle a few years ago, but on a much larger scale. Back then, our issue was coordinating flights and transport from up and down the east coast without knowing how many passes we were going to get, since the org seemed to forget that not everyone lives in San Francisco. As annoying as it was, it didn't threaten our camp. This situation does.

I understand that Burning Man changes, and I don't have any grudges towards first year burners who got a ticket in the lottery. Although radical inclusion seems like an increasingly ridiculous principle, I am still glad that the event is open to all (at least in theory), and I know that the supply / demand problem is a tough one to fix. The org screwed this up, but I don't fault their motives.

But before this, having your shit together was enough. Now it isn't enough. That's not a change I like, and it's one that's likely to prevent me from going this year. Positive thinking isn't useful the way planning is. Positive vibes don't build theme camps; money, time, and energy do. All the "We'll figure it out!" posts strike me as magical thinking, and I find them mildly offensive, but I'm not going to kick the dreamers out of the burner community.

If we can get face value tickets with enough time to plan, we'll go. If we can't, we probably won't. That decision is probably going to be made in March.
Love White Dragon Noodle Bar, btw!!! Thank you for filling our tummies so wonderfully. Couldn't agree more with all you wrote here.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by DISTRIKT » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:14 pm

alt12 wrote:
DISTRIKT wrote:We are not asking for special treatment. We are simply at risk of not being able to come back to Burning Man which seems would make you quite happy so I'll leave it at that. It saddens us immensely since we all love what we do or we wouldn't spend 10 months of the year working to create what you've seen on the playa.
But that's exactly what you are asking for. Large sound camps should get special treatment (i.e. gift tickets, discount tickets, etc.) That's what you are saying, no? That is special treatment. Last time I checked there were several hundred registered theme camps at burning man. To select a few "large camps" or a few "large sound camps" and provide them with treatment that other theme camps are not provided with is by definition special treatment. That is what I object to. You are inferring that I have an axe to grind with Distrikt or large scale sound capes of all stripes. Nothing could be further from the truth. I love Distrikt, I've danced there many times and Deep End before that and truly hope you guys make it back. There are a lot of large camps that I hope come back I just don't buy the argument that they should be subsidized. On the other hand, I think subsidizing art (visual art if you will) at an art-festival in a country that as a whole provides minuscule funding to art does make sense.
You and I can choose to disagree on this front. I'm not even asking for discount tickets. But the math just doesn't work to get back out there with only 5 of 13 of our core membership. We are hopeful that STEP will provide, but there has not been 1 camper within our camp who has had tickets to spare post lottery. There are hosts of small art projects who do not get funded by BMOrg and come out on their own sans discount tickets or BMOrg grants (we will be one of them with our grantee). Then there are the BMOrg supported artists who do come with discounted tickets and funding. How do they delineate to give group tickets to some and not all? The same exact question exists in the art end of Burning Man. It is truly preferential treatment at the end of the day. Sorry to say. And this is from Piper at DISTRIKT. I didn't realize my ePlaya defaulted to our DISTRIKT account.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by Pipey » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:26 pm

RevDusty wrote:@pipey
Art projects funded by grants are *not* guaranteed free tickets at all. I was on a large funded art project, and while we did get gift tickets, that didn't happen until mid-summer (if I recall correctly). And it was a nice surprise. No one was working hard on that project for a free ticket, we were working to make an awesome thing.

I'm not really concerned with a village deconstructing...I never thought much of them anyway. Theme camps will morph and fuse and work out some way...maybe not as big and grand as before, and maybe that is not necessary.

Large sound camps: add nothing to the event for me, I go for the art, creativity, and whimsy. No offense intended, just my individual preference, but if they are drastically reduced in number, I don't see any negative for the event.

Whereas, a reduction in art (both big and small), I see as a real issue. Your mileage may vary.

Disclosure: my theme camp is probably in the 20 - 30 % ticketed range. It sucks, and ultimately it is a drain on energy that should go to planning great stuff for the event.
@RevDusty - points noted and validated. I actually helped with events/fundraising for the Temple of Flux a couple of years back. My experience was the same as yours that the artist tickets came mid summer - and yes, that's late to be sure for camps such as ours which will be locked & loaded in trailers by then. I'm sorry you don't enjoy the sound camps. It's clearly a love/hate. We only try to give the love end. All the best to you & your efforts this year. I completely agree that less art (both big & small) would be a huge loss to the fullness of the event.

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Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Post by inog » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:30 pm

shykat wrote: Time to make new friends......

That is a nice way of putting it. There are plenty of people with tickets. There are plenty of ideas. It is time to put the people together with the ideas. This looks like a prime opportunity for something new to take shape and see what grows in this "fertile" combination once the established structures have been pulled away.

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