We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGINS!

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We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGINS!

Post by duder9000 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:59 pm

TL:DR In order to keep growth healthy, allocate 37,000 tiered tix to Veterans in a first-come, first-served sale and allocate 23,000 tiered tix to Virgins in a lottery

(AKA IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR FRACTALS IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR US!)

Just as it is important to have new blood flowing through our veins, and new life blowing through our city, fueling change and ideas; it is important to have the wisdom of the past, be present in today's burn. Veterans are the structure, the wood; virgins are the oxygen that keeps the flames going. And when we put it all together and light that shit on fire, that's when we are burning!

And that's when we experience that annual "re-birth", together on the playa. We see the fire all around us, look up at that effigy, and say "My gratitude is so immense for being given this re-birth, that I feel compelled to pay homage". Homage to "it", to "what", to "who"? It's unique to each person and impossible to describe.

The "situation" burning man attendees are in today:
-- IS NOT the result of scalpers (I'm estimating a small percentage here, 2000 tix?, let's not get too caught up in this exact number)
-- IS DEFINITELY the result of a serious ass influx of virgin interest

Nothin wrong with virgins, I LOVE VIRGINS, we were ALL virgins once! But...

Proportion is everything. What is the most fruitful proportion of VETERANS to VIRGINS? A proportion where we thrive, not just survive. A proportion that would foster elegant growth. For lack of a better guess, what the hell, let's just use the Golden Ratio for argument's sake, because who doensn't like math and art all swirled up into one delicious bite!

Looks like target population this year is 60,000. Using the Golden Ratio*** (and assuming that ideally there'd be *slightly* more veterans than virgins) that would make approximately:

37,000 veterans
23,000 virgins

#1. 37,000 -- January tickets - to VETERANS** only, ONE per person, TIERED - (NOT A LOTTERY, just give us a unique purchase code, first-come, first served). Any Veteran! 1 year or 20 year!
#2. 23,000 -- pre-sale, low-income, 15,000 TIERED February sale, all three open to VIRGINS or VETERANS (LOTTERY-STYLE, except for low-income but that's case-by-case anyway)

(The fluctuation of January tix being passed to Virgins from pool #1, would probably balance out with the number of Veterans in pool #2.)

--KEEP THE "NO NAMES" ON TICKETS! NO EXTRA PRINTING COSTS OR MAN-POWER IN LINE!
--Keep the STEP program (Veterans could sell to Virgins, and Virgins to Veterans, once you get a ticket there's no difference between them)
--Keep it partial lottery! Help keep those scalpers at bay! (you now have the infrastructure!)
--Keep it partial open sale! (you still have the infrastructure!)
--AND KEEP THE TIERS!!! They're great, obviously! Yay poor and rich and in-betweeny people can all go!


LET'S TALK ABOUT RADICAL SELF-INCLUSION:
--We always talk like "Radical Self-Inclusion" means giving up all structure.
--The TIERS are structure, and yet we find them okay.
--Le'ts get some STRUCTURE in valuing the Veterans! Because with a sky-rocketed growth rate of interest, the "Elders" will die out at a DAMAGING RATE.

LET OUR GROWTH BE LIKE THE ELEGANT GROWTH OF A SPIRAL!
IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR FRACTALS IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR US!



**Yes, oh my gosh, the ONE-TIME hassle of confirming who all the veterans are. Well create a database from this years burn, and anyone skipping this year and coming next year can prove one way or another they were there. A confirmed photograph, a 100 word essay, what the heck ever. Once you get create the database you only have to add the new virgins every year. You get yer unique code, BAM you buy a ticket first-come first serve in the January sale.

***The Golden Ratio - check out both "The Golden Mean" and "The Golden Ratio" entries on Wikipedia for information.


(p.s. for those of you who like background profiling, I'm a veteran, I had mixed feelings about the lottery, I only entered the lottery for what I needed, I won a 1st tier ticket)
Last edited by duder9000 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by duder9000 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:12 pm

Just want to reiterate...

I LOVE VIRGINS! We really need y'all!

With the exponential rate of new growth, however, it seems like a healthy mix of Virgins and Veterans is necessary, and that cannot be achieved by a 100% lotto, imho.

Just don't want my post to be misconstrued as Virgin-hate, cuz I love y'all and I'm excited to see you all on the playa!
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by White Bronco » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:45 pm

I love this post bro!

I know the ticket people planning committee have done a ton of work. I get that. The system was whacked and you want to know how people got around it? They used a few different credit cards and e-mail addresses. It's not rocket science. Make it like the Olympics, you buy it, you get your name on it, and that's it. You can not go? Well just set up a special feature to put it under someone else's name who you are selling ticket to, they get scanned at the booth and new owners name will pop up instead of the original guy. Done.

For the 1st time I felt excluded in an event where there were not exclusions or rules. Hand picking who gets to go causes discontent. I'm sick of kissing my ANTI-SOCIAL placement person's ass to get a camp space for my people and now I'm stepping and fetching for a ticket. We have to go overboard to show our respect to the BM crew(they do an amazing job and deserve it...not refuting that) but isn't respect a two way street? Total velvet rope crap and an e-mail telling me that the 'playa will provide' is s slap in the face.

Good luck to all of you who did get a ticket.
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by BBadger » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:44 am

Actually I'm thinking we need a whole lot less of such "vets." They've lost their way. Let the door hit them on the way out.
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by lemur » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:09 am

duder9000 wrote: Nothin wrong with virgins, I LOVE VIRGINS, we were ALL virgins once! But...

FUCK YER DAY

yer idea sucks


how about being radically entitled to: fuck off!
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by karma_cat » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:04 am

lemur wrote:
duder9000 wrote: Nothin wrong with virgins, I LOVE VIRGINS, we were ALL virgins once! But...

FUCK YER DAY

yer idea sucks


how about being radically entitled to: fuck off!
Hey Lemur ... it might be a good idea for you to take a break from the boards for a while. You seem to have gone off the deep end lately and that really can't be good for your health. Seriously ... take a break.

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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by lemur » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:06 am

i have achieved enlightenment and clarity.
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by VultureChow » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:20 am

Why would you think there is a sudden influx of virgins now? If anything, it's harder for us to get tickets this year. The decision must me made super early; no last minute "Hey let's go to Burning Man next month. I've got a case of beer and a tutu."

It seems that a huge amount of tickets will go through unofficial secondary sales where friends and campmates distribute to each other. If you a a virgin, especially one without burner friends, you are cut out of these tickets.
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by AntiM » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:53 am

VultureChow wrote:Why would you think there is a sudden influx of virgins now? If anything, it's harder for us to get tickets this year. The decision must me made super early; no last minute "Hey let's go to Burning Man next month. I've got a case of beer and a tutu."

It seems that a huge amount of tickets will go through unofficial secondary sales where friends and campmates distribute to each other. If you a a virgin, especially one without burner friends, you are cut out of these tickets.

A great deal of the virgin interest this year was sparked by the Places You'll Go video. Seriously, registration for tickets jumped when Dr. Seuss in the desert hit the major social media sites.

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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by 5280MeV » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:06 am

VultureChow wrote:Why would you think there is a sudden influx of virgins now? If anything, it's harder for us to get tickets this year. The decision must me made super early; no last minute "Hey let's go to Burning Man next month. I've got a case of beer and a tutu."
This year's virgins (and relative newbies like myself) also have to get through these weird guilt-trip feelings, coming either from the chatter or from within. After that, there is this bog of negativity which is going to propagate forward for the next two weeks. The question, "where do I camp?" just got a lot more interesting.

With so many camps in a state of dysfunction - at least temporarily - there may be a lot of virgins (and veterans!) who get spooked and decide to just relinquish their ticket, either through STEP, or through StubHub with just enough markup to defray their processing fees.

If the weather experts are correct, 2012 is going to be a gigantic bowl of dust that won't exactly be easy to ride a bike on - assuming that you can see five feet in front of you in the first place.

There are many more challenges to newcomers this year.

Bring your sense of adventure! I am still optimistic that whoever makes it onto the playa and manages to stay on the playa into the burn weekend is going to be the type of person that I want to meet.
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by djmattdunn » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:35 pm

So the lottery fails. Instead of bitching about it lets figure out a way to keep scalpers from getting all the tickets in the future. My suggestion is giving everyone at BM 2012 a serial number (perhaps on a sticker that they get at the gate entry) that can be used to guarantee them an opportunity for one ticket for BM 2013 when those go on sale next year? So basically, everyone that goes to burning man this year gets first chance at buying themselves a ticket for next year. This should cut out the scalpers initially and get the tickets directly to those that participate first.

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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by dangerous » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:46 pm

i am a virgin with a ticket.

my first exposure to Burning Man was in 1990 when i saw "Juicy Danger Meets Burning Man" and i knew one day i would be a part of it. so at the tender age of 50, having finally arrived a place in my life where i can make this trip without feeling guilty about taking my eye off my family for more than a weekend and having the $$ to do it, i find myself feeling guilty for taking a ticket that so many feel others are more deserving of.

after 12 years of waiting instead of being filled with joy i am just sad.

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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:42 pm

I am a vet in a couple senses of the word, and in both cases I don't need a handout.
I was there in 96, 97, 09 or 10 (I forget) and if can create space for others to enjoy it, I'm not going this year.

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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by duder9000 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:53 pm

djmattdunn wrote:So the lottery fails. Instead of bitching about it lets figure out a way to keep scalpers from getting all the tickets in the future. My suggestion is giving everyone at BM 2012 a serial number (perhaps on a sticker that they get at the gate entry) that can be used to guarantee them an opportunity for one ticket for BM 2013 when those go on sale next year? So basically, everyone that goes to burning man this year gets first chance at buying themselves a ticket for next year. This should cut out the scalpers initially and get the tickets directly to those that participate first.
Confused as to whether you read the original post...

- I'm certainly not "bitching"
- I don't think scalpers were a problem, they'll probably end up with less than 5% of tickets
- I DO think the lottery is a good manner of distributing tickets, just not ALL the tickets
- I made the same "suggestion" as you to assign Veterans a serial # to get tix...
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by duder9000 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:55 pm

lemur wrote:
duder9000 wrote: Nothin wrong with virgins, I LOVE VIRGINS, we were ALL virgins once! But...

FUCK YER DAY

yer idea sucks


how about being radically entitled to: fuck off!
Sorry you're so butt-hurt about my innocuous post.
Your curmudgeonly vomit must be really hard to manage.
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by duder9000 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:08 pm

@ any Virgins above, don't feel guilty on account of anyone, you won your ticket fair and square! You're going to have a beautiful time!

I'm certainly not PRO-veteran or ANTI-virgin, I just see value in insuring a healthy mix of both vets and virgins.

a LOTTERY has its good points:
- certainly helped with scalpers
- is a great way to distribute tix
- I think it makes a great fit for the tens of thousands of VIRGINS coming in

an OPEN-SALE has it's good points:
- allows groups of people to effectively plan and create theme camps and art
- I think it makes a great fit for VETERANS

Like I said, VETS and VIRGINS both are VERY IMPORTANT!

My VIRGIN year was AWESOME, because of all the theme camps and environments and crazy art the VETERANS built for me to enjoy and experience. Then after my VIRGIN year it was my turn to give back by creating a theme camp! Yes there are a few exceptions, but more or less, the theme camps set up at burning man are organized by VETERANS so that everyone, including VIRGINS, can enjoy.
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by Ataraxist » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:16 pm

As a virgin, I like this idea. I have been a part of the rave community since '06 and I got to watch the death of that community first hand, HELL I was part of the cause of death. I witnessed a radically inclusive group of strangers take me in so readily that I was stunned! I in turn turned around, shared it with everyone I could and formed my own rave family, I found utopia on earth one night at a time.

Lo and Behold, my efforts brought forth more and more spawnlings of ravers who knew less and less of the core message eventually drowning out the underground with massives, and massives with festivals.

So now, my first year of burning man, (searching for my lost rave utopia) i am witnessing the EXACT thing i was so bitter about loosing in the first place.

Your idea seems to make sense, I hope the bmorg takes note.
As of right now, the group of vets I intended to follow have all bailed due to lack o tickets, I am campless with 0 experience. Let me know if you need an extra pair of hands. :)

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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:19 pm

Burningman is what you make. Literally, in some ways, in Black Rock City.

Virgin or Vet, I want to camp with people who, at the worst of the gale force winds dust storm, scream into the wind and say "fuck you, I'll take things how they are and I'll have fun!" Really, everybody's got a system, and the point of each and every system is to make sure that the person who invented it gets a ticket.

Grow up, life isn't fair. Do your best to get a ticket, sure, but if you don't get one...

Lemur, sorry your bullshit alarm is going off constantly in these threads, it's stressful.
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by lessrules » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:36 pm

theCryptofishist wrote: Really, everybody's got a system, and the point of each and every system is to make sure that the person who invented it gets a ticket.
Not so much with this schema (crossposted from another thread):
lessrules wrote:your 2012 ticket gives you 10% off 2013.... but,
you must gift it to someone or loose it.

if at least 3 burners gift you their 10%, then your ticket is CONFIRMED.

...and so on,

9 burners can gift 3 people 30% off, and those 3 lucky burners/birgins get CONFIRMED tickets.
or a camp of 10 people could give away one FREE & CONFIRMED ticket.
let the gifters decide who goes

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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:39 pm

Oy! That's a logistical nightmare to keep track of...
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by lessrules » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:45 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Oy! That's a logistical nightmare to keep track of...
OK, then what if we simplify it to:

All tickets must be gifted.

Of course that would be insane, but if we work from that standpoint.... where do we get?
Initially, it would be funny to see a scapler trying to sell a ticket that has to be gifted. But I'm sure that the notion can be anchored in reality somehow....

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serve the VETS and VIRGINS... and the GROUPS!

Post by lessrules » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:28 pm

Don't mind me while I think aloud some more...
I would call this CLUMPING RANDOMNESS. It's about keeping things random, while serving the needs of people who burn in groups

Because we have more burners/burgins than can go:
-very early on, we start the drawing
-we draw smaller groups of tickets every few days over a month or two
-initially a few burners/burgins get a few tix by some generally accepted randomish way
-we recognize the importance of theme camps that need their people and also that some burners need to burn with their peeps
-those few people who were awarded tickets get to raise ticket priority for their family, friends, and campmates
-BUT, you only have so much pull, so naming 1 person has a better sucess rate than naming 10
-then there are about 10 more draws, with every one increasing the chance that your peeps will get chosen
-the earlier that someone you know is drawn means the better chance y'all will all be going


Optionally, it can be further complicated if burners choose to band together in different ways:
-they can choose to group together with an ALL or nothing approach, e.g.:
-I need a ticket for my wife and my child, or I will give up my ticket
-I have been designated the leader of theme camp XYZ, and we have 20 members, and we will only be a theme camp if we get 12 tickets
-Or even: My bf/gf needs a ticket as first priority, and as second priority, we need all the campmates of theme camp XYZ to get a ticket as well.

And for those into MAJOR DRAMA events,
-Dude and Dudette register.
-Dude gives his g/f Dudette priority
-Dudette gives her girlfriend Bitchette priority
-Dudette gets drawn for a ticket early on
-Dude thinks he will be in for a tick because of his g/f Dudette
-Bitchette gets a ticket, and Dudette and Bitchette leave Dude behind
-Dude's world crashes down around him and somebody "POSTS APPROPRIATE INTERNET MEME BELOW"
(mentally swap the genders at will for your preferred outcome)

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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:25 am

To backtrack a little...
lessrules wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote: Really, everybody's got a system, and the point of each and every system is to make sure that the person who invented it gets a ticket.
Not so much with this schema (crossposted from another thread):
lessrules wrote:your 2012 ticket gives you 10% off 2013.... but,
you must gift it to someone or loose it.

if at least 3 burners gift you their 10%, then your ticket is CONFIRMED.

...and so on,

9 burners can gift 3 people 30% off, and those 3 lucky burners/birgins get CONFIRMED tickets.
or a camp of 10 people could give away one FREE & CONFIRMED ticket.
let the gifters decide who goes
2 words: Bohemian Grove...
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by lessrules » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:17 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:To backtrack a little...
lessrules wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote: Really, everybody's got a system, and the point of each and every system is to make sure that the person who invented it gets a ticket.
Not so much with this schema (crossposted from another thread):
lessrules wrote:your 2012 ticket gives you 10% off 2013.... but,
you must gift it to someone or loose it.

if at least 3 burners gift you their 10%, then your ticket is CONFIRMED.

...and so on,

9 burners can gift 3 people 30% off, and those 3 lucky burners/birgins get CONFIRMED tickets.
or a camp of 10 people could give away one FREE & CONFIRMED ticket.
let the gifters decide who goes
2 words: Bohemian Grove...
I don't quite follow... I thought Bohemian Grove was invite-only. Isn't this like, give a deserving or less-fortunate friend a deal on a ticket? I know it's not quite as altruistic as paying for the highest tier and letting a stranger get a lower tier ticket.... but pretty close, no? And it helps raise attendance for your group (which is a big sore spot right now)... Ok, maybe it should only apply to the year that you are going, and not the next year... then it doesn't have a lasting effect... if that is a bad thing....

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Re: serve the VETS and VIRGINS... and the GROUPS!

Post by BBadger » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:20 pm

lessrules wrote:(convoluted system)
I find it completely ironic that you named yourself "lessrules".
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:27 pm

To become a member of the Bohemian Club, you need a sponsor. I think that's a path to stagnation.
YMMV
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by lemur » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:40 pm

I have seen this model work in the past, surely it can work for burning man..

Magnum's photographers meet once a year, during the last weekend in June, in New York, Paris or London, one day at this meeting is set aside for considering and voting on potential new members' portfolios. Successful applicants are invited to become a 'Nominee Member' of Magnum, a category of membership that presents an opportunity for Magnum and the individual to get to know each other, but where there are no binding commitments on either side.

After two years of Nominee membership, photographers then present another portfolio if they wish to apply for 'Associate Membership'. If successful, the photographer then becomes bound by all the rules of the agency, and enjoys all the facilities of its offices and worldwide representation. Finally, after another two years, an Associate member wishing to apply for full membership presents a further portfolio of work for consideration by the members. Once elected as a full member, this effectively confers membership of Magnum for life or for as long as the photographer chooses.

No member photographer of Magnum has ever been asked to leave.
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Re: serve the VETS and VIRGINS... and the GROUPS!

Post by lessrules » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:49 pm

BBadger wrote:
lessrules wrote:(convoluted system)
I find it completely ironic that you named yourself "lessrules".
don't get me wrong, the best way is remove the population cap. and I've got a few other rules I'd love to pluck. But I believe this whole thing right now is about:
1. venting, and
2. floating ideas out there

sorry if I contradict my username or post some hypocritical stuff. I'm not trying to establish a nice linear character sock puppet for trolling ePlaya, just doing #1 and #2, and in between that grabbing a bevy and literally doing either #1 or #2. :D

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lessrules
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:23 pm

Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by lessrules » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:54 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:To become a member of the Bohemian Club, you need a sponsor. I think that's a path to stagnation.
YMMV
OK, I understand, and I agree that a closed feedback loop like that would lead to stagnation.

Having a small feedback loop would help groups be able to enjoy a burn together, and it could be restricted to one year, to as not to perpetuate itself.

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BBadger
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Re: We need a system that appreciates VETS as much as VIRGIN

Post by BBadger » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:59 pm

This is sounding very arbitrary and/or very complex. Neither is good for policy.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

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