YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other thoughts.

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by The CO » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:41 pm

alt12 wrote:My camp meets all criteria listed above, has been registered for 5 years BUT has no special Enron-type connections. I am pretty damn sure we won't get jack.... But I'll tell you what, I will post on this board if we do......
Well then, STFU about it until you find out. You are decrying a system as failed before it is complete.
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by alt12 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:16 pm

vargaso wrote:Here's an interesting perspective from the Burners.Me blog on theme camps and why some might "deserve" special access to tickets and other such help:

http://burners.me/2012/02/13/bring-back-root-society/
Anyone who was at Burning Man in 2010 will surely remember what to me is the most amazing stage I have ever seen, anywhere. Root Society had a 5-story high rectangle, with a massive DJ booth in the middle. There were dancing girls inside the rectangle, and unbelievable visual projections on the outside. The sound was phenomenal.
No offense to JefrTale or his Monster.com funded theme camp, but the event went just fine without RS in 2011.... Other camps filled the shoes.... There is no indispensable camp out there. He chooses to bring it big then he's got to deal with the consequences out there, including the trash and the expense. This is how the event goes. No one's asking him to please come and throw a party for us.... And no other camp I know of asks for a personalized thank you from Larry Harvey....

Personally, I liked RS a lot better with the old two-dome set-up. The ludicrous wall-of-video stage was like being at a hard-rock concert and created the feeling of being a spectator at an event whereas dancing in the big dome you always felt like you were part of something....

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by alt12 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:18 pm

The CO wrote:
alt12 wrote:My camp meets all criteria listed above, has been registered for 5 years BUT has no special Enron-type connections. I am pretty damn sure we won't get jack.... But I'll tell you what, I will post on this board if we do......
Well then, STFU about it until you find out. You are decrying a system as failed before it is complete.
No, I am decrying a system that is inherently elitist by definition. And I don't think its going to fail at all. Quite the contrary, it will succeed at distributing tickets to the elite friends of the org. I base this on 4 years as a volunteer, 9 years going to bm and living in San Francisco and working with some of these folks at events, working on art projects for the last several years as well running a theme camp for the last 7 years.... I've seen the nepotism in almost every department at burning man.... Let's just say its an educated guess based on previous experience....

PS - None of that stuff used to get to me because it didn't fundamentally alter the dynamics of the event. But this does. As of today, 20% of those burners are going to be hand picked by the org to attend.

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by Valgar » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:31 pm

Colonel Monk wrote:Yeah exactly, it's not speculation any more.

Really disappointed in this news, as are many of my friends, many of whom have volunteered in the org for several years all the way to 15 years...
We have made the difficult decision to take the 10,000 tickets that were slated to be sold via the Secondary Open Sale and manually redirect them to some of the vital groups and collaborations that make up Black Rock City: volunteers, theme camps, mutant vehicles, art installations and performance groups.
Uh...what?

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by pink » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:08 am

Hey, if you are talking about our camp with the 11 noobs, our virgins rocked. at least one came in early for set up and stayed late for tear down, presented two demonstrations/workshops, hawked cock, and generally rocked his first burn.

Two others, friends of mine pre-burn, brought a hexayurt, taught belly dancing, entertained, tended bar, and got visitors to our camp to play games. They only joined the camp a week or two before the burn, when another camp they were planning on staying in fell apart.

Another low-key, unassuming newbie male got more vanilla women to ride our sybian than I could imagine. And hawked cock.

Two more tended bar, others cooked for the camp, and took turns interacting with our guests.

The point is, our virgins were pretty indistiguishable from our veterans in the amount of time, effort and energy they brought to our camp, and the energy spent interacting with our visitors.

Most of our virgins want to come back, are trying to come back. We've picked up a couple more that visited our camp, and want to join this year. I'm bringing another newb (who bought two tickets in the presale under the auspect of 'buy the most expensive one you can afford', and we'll probably pick up some more veterans.

And fuck, I'm far from rich, but if I had thought the main lottery was going to be gamed to the extent I think it was, I'd have bought presale too.
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by mars » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:06 am

Okay everybody...let's all think about the worst possible scenarios....ready, set, GO!
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by Lighter01 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:04 pm

I agree totally. But this is my concern: what if the ticket distribution is so spotty that no one is able to put together a big theme camp? True, no single camp is so crucial to the city, but having camps AT ALL is crucial. If every camp in existence only has tickets for an average of 25% of participants, how will there be any big camps in the first place - unless they are all cobbled together out of whoever actually has a ticket?

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by HandJamMasterC » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:19 pm

I agree totally. But this is my concern: what if the ticket distribution is so spotty that no one is able to put together a big theme camp? True, no single camp is so crucial to the city, but having camps AT ALL is crucial. If every camp in existence only has tickets for an average of 25% of participants, how will there be any big camps in the first place - unless they are all cobbled together out of whoever actually has a ticket?
It's worse than that - most of us small theme camps don't have enough tickets. When the people that built and own the theme camp infrastructure and the pickup trucks needed to move all the stuff and supplies that comprise the theme camp don't have a ticket, it's game over.

Camp DOA needs 6 tickets - only me and my wife got 2. Nobody else got tickets. The other small camps around 3 and G are just as bad off. I imagine it's the same with other established and potential new theme camps.

We welcome vigins camping with us, and in fact have 2 that got tickets. But, they won't have us to mentor them or a theme camp to stay in and help run if the people that spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours over the last 3 years don't get 6 more tickets............... :cry:
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by oneeyeddick » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:30 pm

I saw a post from a girl over on the BM facebook page that said that they got ALL of the tickets needed for their Theme Camp.

They must have been more important than this thread.
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by A Jester » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:41 pm

alt12 wrote:
The CO wrote:
alt12 wrote:My camp meets all criteria listed above, has been registered for 5 years BUT has no special Enron-type connections. I am pretty damn sure we won't get jack.... But I'll tell you what, I will post on this board if we do......
Well then, STFU about it until you find out. You are decrying a system as failed before it is complete.
No, I am decrying a system that is inherently elitist by definition. And I don't think its going to fail at all. Quite the contrary, it will succeed at distributing tickets to the elite friends of the org. I base this on 4 years as a volunteer, 9 years going to bm and living in San Francisco and working with some of these folks at events, working on art projects for the last several years as well running a theme camp for the last 7 years.... I've seen the nepotism in almost every department at burning man.... Let's just say its an educated guess based on previous experience....

PS - None of that stuff used to get to me because it didn't fundamentally alter the dynamics of the event. But this does. As of today, 20% of those burners are going to be hand picked by the org to attend.
I don't envy the position they are in, or the choices they have to make, but I don't get the reasoning behind the Org's decision on this one. I agree that picking 20% of the population is a shift.
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by knowmad » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:53 pm

unregistered theme camps = FUCKYOU!
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by ZaphodBurner » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:06 pm

mars wrote:Okay everybody...let's all think about the worst possible scenarios....ready, set, GO!
Interesting. As a flight instructor and pilot, survivalism is my job. I teach students to be ready for any realistically-possible situation not to be cynical, but to be prepared. Radical self-reliance. Say you're over the Nevada desert 100 miles from anywhere and the LOW VOLTAGE light comes on? (Happened to me in June, and again in July over the Yukon) What do you do if your radio fails? How far are you going to be able to go and where are you going to land if there's a wrecked airplane on the runway when you get there? If your engine quits and you end up in the mountains, are you prepared to survive until somebody gets you? What happens if your pitot-static system fails? So, here are the kinds of things survivalists SHOULD think about.

Exodus, Monday afternoon: You're in the middle lane somewhere, the gate is closed because of a dust storm, cars are jammed everywhere, and suddenly fire starts pouring out of the RV in front of you. All of your shit is packed in your car, and suddenly a propane bottle or something goes off an there's an explosion.

Are you prepared to grab a fire extinguisher and help prevent the fire from jumping to other cars? More importantly, suppose it does, and you have to bug out and just run for it. What items, if any, would you take with you to survive in the elements until somebody picks you up? Do you have a survival bag handy in case you have to bail?
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by robrob » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:14 pm

knowmad wrote:unregistered theme camps = FUCKYOU!
somebody had to get a fuck you. this at least makes sense. if your camp doesnt have a contact person, how are you going to get invited to a sale?
(for the record, my camp was unregistered; we were planning on shooting for placement this year prior to the changes)

this decision favors those that are in the system. Not "friends of larry" or "big theme camps". It favors volunteers with a time card, MV owners registered with the DMV, placed camps of all sizes.. Burning Man literally has a bureaucracy, and the people that are in it may see their number come up. It makes perfect sense, from a functional standpoint. Whether it's fair or not depends on who you ask.

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by urvile » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:38 pm

robrob wrote:
knowmad wrote:unregistered theme camps = FUCKYOU!
somebody had to get a fuck you. this at least makes sense. if your camp doesnt have a contact person, how are you going to get invited to a sale?
(for the record, my camp was unregistered; we were planning on shooting for placement this year prior to the changes)

this decision favors those that are in the system. Not "friends of larry" or "big theme camps". It favors volunteers with a time card, MV owners registered with the DMV, placed camps of all sizes.. Burning Man literally has a bureaucracy, and the people that are in it may see their number come up. It makes perfect sense, from a functional standpoint. Whether it's fair or not depends on who you ask.
This, and well said. imho it was the least bad decision they could make out of a bunch of much worse ones. Redoing the whole thing and implementing completely new untested systems (non transferrable tickets tied to id's etc.) would have been a nightmare of unintended consequences which in a worst case scenario could potentially end the event as we got shut down by NHP, BLM, Nevada Health Department, Fire Department, etc. Even in a best case scenario for doing that, your just reshuffling the deck and it ends up being no better than a lottery anyway. Even the people complaining about elitism seem to suggest things that are just as, if not more, elitist, just tilted in their favor rather than someone else's.

Right now, your chances are best if you've been an active, volunteering, theme camp/art contributing, play by the rules, member of the community with many friends within it, who didn't leave a crappy moop map or cause problems with your neighbors. Cuz that's how the magic ticket will trickle down to you. If you've got to tilt the machine, I consider that a pretty fair way to do it. Just because it doesn't favor a particular individual or group doesn't mean it isn't fair - it just means it isn't fair TO THEM.

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by simoneski » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:47 pm

[quote][/quote]There really isn't a direct correlation between seniority and the ability to be a 'good burner' . Perhaps we should have a Logan's Run concept for 'Burnier Than Thou' veterans- once you've been to ten burns, you're too jaded and will be hunted down and strapped to the man... that'll free up some space. However, I will predict that after the immaculate weather of 2011, many will be in for a shock when 2012 is bit hotter, drier windier and dustier. Every year has its unique challenges; instead of beating a dead horse, why not bring a living horse to the water? At least -attempt- to be part of the solution, instead of armchair quarterbacking.

Couldn't agree more!

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by RockellG » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:48 pm

Hey! We are super super duper important on the playa.

Gawd!!!

Also -- totally brilliant post. All the whining and boo-hooing and virgins are the devil stuff is tiresome.

Stop the madness....it's making my brain swell.

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by International Incident » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:00 pm

Colonel Monk wrote: ...
I'm trying to wrap my head around this....

Borg sold 3000 "first-class" tickets to the "wealthy-class" burner. First, and foremost, immediately, they sold "golden" tickets to the highest-bidder without respect to any kind of class, but let the money do the talking so we know who bought those tickets.
...
I told myself i would not post... I told myself I would not post... BUT you sir have tried my patience.

I bought a ticket in the pre-sale as a GIFT for someone that was doing it tough. I know others did the same. The BMorg had them out before Christmas for that reason. And the price wasn't much higher than the general sale of the remaining 10,000 tix ($420 compared to $390).

I am not a wealthy person. But be damned if if people on this board are going to make me feel like a bad person for saving up and giving a GIFT.

I'm sorry you are so unhappy. But in some ways I am actually glad the negative nellies are not coming - I don't think the community needs your whinging.

Things are not perfect. That's what happens in the real world. So how about you open up a can of HARDEN THE FUCK UP and swallow it down.

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by mshaman » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:04 pm

knowmad wrote:unregistered theme camps = FUCKYOU!
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by ZaphodBurner » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:12 pm

robrob wrote: this decision favors those that are in the system. Not "friends of larry" or "big theme camps". It favors volunteers with a time card, MV owners registered with the DMV, placed camps of all sizes..
I agree. Apparently they're also considering previous LNT reports, camp activities, etc going back 10 years. Good for them for doing that!

I have almost no hope that our camp, which has been around under one name or another since 2005, will get tickets because we're insignificant in the scheme of things, but I still think that they picked the best workable solution for the camps.

You can build a wooden man, light it on fire, hug each other and call it Burning Man. Anywhere, anytime. But you can't call it Black Rock City.

Getting a camp placed and registered means you went through a process to explain your safety plan, your flammable liquid storage plan, your LNT plan, generators, burn barrels, responsible parties. They have a better idea what to expect. It demonstrates that you're at least trying to be serious. I completed and submitted our plan at 2:30 yesterday and the Questionnaire didn't even open until noon or so. It's not that much of a ball-breaker if you have your shit together in advance.

And all a "theme camp" is is a collaborative effort. It's not like a clique or a Disney ride. Some of the camps extend themselves out to virgins, strangers, anybody who applies.
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by atomosk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:18 pm

Agreed. Burning man is an ongoing experiment in participatory community building. I mean was. Now that there's an obvious separation between the burning man elite and virginal spectators this is Nevada's Coachella. At least that's the impression I get. I don't think I'd miss a single art installation or theme camp. If it's big sound camps that are struggling, which people do expect, now's a poor way to finally support them. Is Burning Man going to start advertising headliners? Will there be fliers announcing Daft Punk is playing OT? Will John Doe who brings their generators get second billing? I was so disappointed to think Snow Flake village not being there, because who would ever take their place? Someone new? Obviously they couldn't have found volunteers to fill in, or regrouped to do something different with a different group this year like every one else does every single year. I'm so glad veteran theme campers get to go with all the same people they always do.

I mean, I've only been going 12 years and it's not like the event revolves around me. I'm glad the people the event does revolve around are all getting to camp together again. Burning Man doesn't have to be about participation or self reliance because we can count on those folks to entertain us the whole time.

I'll stay home this year where the grapes aren't so sour.

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by SquirrelHead » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:22 pm

melaniejane wrote:
I told myself i would not post... I told myself I would not post... BUT you sir have tried my patience.

I bought a ticket in the pre-sale as a GIFT for someone that was doing it tough. I know others did the same. The BMorg had them out before Christmas for that reason. And the price wasn't much higher than the general sale of the remaining 10,000 tix ($420 compared to $390).

I am not a wealthy person. But be damned if if people on this board are going to make me feel like a bad person for saving up and giving a GIFT.

I'm sorry you are so unhappy. But in some ways I am actually glad the negative nellies are not coming - I don't think the community needs your whinging.

Things are not perfect. That's what happens in the real world. So how about you open up a can of HARDEN THE FUCK UP and swallow it down.
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by atomosk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:46 pm

melaniejane wrote:
Colonel Monk wrote: ...
I'm trying to wrap my head around this....

Borg sold 3000 "first-class" tickets to the "wealthy-class" burner. First, and foremost, immediately, they sold "golden" tickets to the highest-bidder without respect to any kind of class, but let the money do the talking so we know who bought those tickets.
...
I told myself i would not post... I told myself I would not post... BUT you sir have tried my patience.

I bought a ticket in the pre-sale as a GIFT for someone that was doing it tough. I know others did the same. The BMorg had them out before Christmas for that reason. And the price wasn't much higher than the general sale of the remaining 10,000 tix ($420 compared to $390).

I am not a wealthy person. But be damned if if people on this board are going to make me feel like a bad person for saving up and giving a GIFT.

I'm sorry you are so unhappy. But in some ways I am actually glad the negative nellies are not coming - I don't think the community needs your whinging.

Things are not perfect. That's what happens in the real world. So how about you open up a can of HARDEN THE FUCK UP and swallow it down.
Hell yes I concur. Gift tickets are awesome and those who give them walk inches above the ground. I'm inclined to agree that tiers really don't mean much anymore. They have low income tickets which no ticketed event has an obligation to offer. BM can charge whatever they want for tickets, but we should all get an equal shot at them. I have a problem with tickets just being passed out by those talking about radical self reliance.

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by lucky420 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:11 pm

melaniejane wrote:

I told myself i would not post... I told myself I would not post... BUT you sir have tried my patience.

I bought a ticket in the pre-sale as a GIFT for someone that was doing it tough. I know others did the same. The BMorg had them out before Christmas for that reason. And the price wasn't much higher than the general sale of the remaining 10,000 tix ($420 compared to $390).

I am not a wealthy person. But be damned if if people on this board are going to make me feel like a bad person for saving up and giving a GIFT.

I'm sorry you are so unhappy. But in some ways I am actually glad the negative nellies are not coming - I don't think the community needs your whinging.

Things are not perfect. That's what happens in the real world. So how about you open up a can of HARDEN THE FUCK UP and swallow it down.
Hellz Yes, I am kicking myself daily for not going presale.
I don't exchange gifts at xmas so I had the money, but thought "oh heck I'll just wait and save $90." ( I need 3 tickets)

stupid, stupid me.......
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by hotmess » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:14 pm

I am kicking myself in the ass as well. I chose not to buy tickets as I was between jobs and thought it irresponsible to buy tickets without having work. If only I knew I would be back to working full time in by the beginning of January. Damn!! Oh well. . . . just have to find them some other way!

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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by Elderberry » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:57 pm

You know, this thread gets me more angry every time I just read the title. Fuck you OP! My theme camp IS IMPORTANT! It's important to me and to all of the members of our camp that bust their asses to pull it off every year. And I'm pretty sure there are a lot of other people that enjoyed being able to have an ice cold root beer float during the heat of the day too! And just the fact that it is important to me and my enjoyment of Burning Man, that's all that counts in my world. So there. I feel a whole lot better now.

Oh, and I would imagine that there are a lot of other people that bust their buts to bring their camps to the desert too and feel the same way about their camps.
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by tamarakay » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:10 pm

jkisha wrote:You know, this thread gets me more angry every time I just read the title. Fuck you OP! My theme camp IS IMPORTANT! It's important to me and to all of the members of our camp that bust their asses to pull it off every year. And I'm pretty sure there are a lot of other people that enjoyed being able to have an ice cold root beer float during the heat of the day too! And just the fact that it is important to me and my enjoyment of Burning Man, that's all that counts in my world. So there. I feel a whole lot better now.

Oh, and I would imagine that there are a lot of other people that bust their buts to bring their camps to the desert too and feel the same way about their camps.
Woot! Now get over there and fill out that questionnaire! Your theme camp is important to me too!
Sorry, i just get kinda happy when jkisha gets worked up :D
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by lemur » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:41 pm

it is hard to know if any post mentioning root beer in 2012 is actually a troll/snark/joke or serious..
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by pink » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:28 pm

But he's got root beer floats. Which means ice cream. Which means their camp is MUCH more important than some huge sound camp IMHO.

Ice cream on the playa makes me do the happy dance, plus some.
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by lemur » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:34 pm

last year we had two people drop off coolers full of ice cream sandwiches ..

it was hard to get rid of them all! we probably had at least 100 of em..

anyways.. i was running the kitchen and i quite enjoyed randomly just remembering 'OH YEAH!!' and then taking a group of villagers to the kitchen to let em grab some..

soo happy they were!!



its the little things.
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Re: YOUR THEME CAMP ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT .. and other though

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:46 pm

Colonel Monk wrote:There are certainly alot of elated theme camps out there today...
Which is kinda silly. I bet there aren't going to be lots of tickets for them and they will still have to make difficult choices. It could end up ripping some theme camps apart...
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"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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