New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 2012

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by hotmess » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:26 am

Right on brotha!!!! Stay dusty!

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by remi » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:32 am

ZaphodBurner wrote: All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.
So what? Now burgins won't know how to stay alive and not hurt themselves? I think your confusing "virgin" with "dumbass". A dumbass vet burner can just as easily fall off a structure or step on a rusty nail.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by wraith » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:33 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves.
Really? Who;s saying ALL virgins will be unable to take care of themselves?

All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.

The entire Burning Man project is at stake.

If you want to camp in a wide open space without art, trance music and jaded old stale-blood burners who know what they're doing, check out the Alvord just north of the Black Rock Range. No lie, it is awesome, and the newcomers haven't fucked it all up like they did to Fourth of Juplaya by requiring the BLM to step in and take notice. There were hot springs on private property but of course new people with no respect for what the others built came along and trashed the tub areas. I don't know if he's rebuilt the structure yet, or if he even lets people use it anymore. Somebody stole the sign at the other springs nearby that warn you about toxic levels of arsenic in the water. So, if you're a newbie and it looks like a nice place to soak, well... the Black Rock Desert seems like a nice place to drink beer and run around barefoot all day long too.

Here's a question: How many virgins know what to expect if there's a white-out during, say, Exodus, and they have to sit in the vehicle with their windows up for eight hours? In 2010, they closed the gate for several hours because of the storm. Our van reached 120 degrees inside and if we ran the A/C, eventually the engine overheated. On the other hand, at least we had A/C. Anybody who opened the vents and turned on the fan might as well have just rolled down the window.

Have any of you, virgin or veteran, considered what 25,000 people will do in the Exodus line if some car right in the middle of it catches on fire?

That's why the Survival Guide was written by veterans.
I believe it was you that mentioned it before, but my real fear is a true whiteout with half the population being virgins who may have never even heard of it. You know, the kind of thing that happened in 2001. Condition Alpha. A three-day hurricane force dust storm, right at Exodus.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by waynerd » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:34 am

remi wrote:
ZaphodBurner wrote: All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.
So what? Now burgins won't know how to stay alive and not hurt themselves? I think your confusing "virgin" with "dumbass". A dumbass vet burner can just as easily fall off a structure or step on a rusty nail.

Haven't you heard? We're all Infants.
Excuse me, this is way different than what was described in the brochure!

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by haolegolucky » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:58 am

WE WERE ALL BIRGINS ONCE!

99.99% of us did not kill ourselves or someone else. Remember that.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by vargaso » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:09 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves.
Really? Who;s saying ALL virgins will be unable to take care of themselves?

All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.

The entire Burning Man project is at stake.

If you want to camp in a wide open space without art, trance music and jaded old stale-blood burners who know what they're doing, check out the Alvord just north of the Black Rock Range. No lie, it is awesome, and the newcomers haven't fucked it all up like they did to Fourth of Juplaya by requiring the BLM to step in and take notice. There were hot springs on private property but of course new people with no respect for what the others built came along and trashed the tub areas. I don't know if he's rebuilt the structure yet, or if he even lets people use it anymore. Somebody stole the sign at the other springs nearby that warn you about toxic levels of arsenic in the water. So, if you're a newbie and it looks like a nice place to soak, well... the Black Rock Desert seems like a nice place to drink beer and run around barefoot all day long too.

Here's a question: How many virgins know what to expect if there's a white-out during, say, Exodus, and they have to sit in the vehicle with their windows up for eight hours? In 2010, they closed the gate for several hours because of the storm. Our van reached 120 degrees inside and if we ran the A/C, eventually the engine overheated. On the other hand, at least we had A/C. Anybody who opened the vents and turned on the fan might as well have just rolled down the window.

Have any of you, virgin or veteran, considered what 25,000 people will do in the Exodus line if some car right in the middle of it catches on fire?

That's why the Survival Guide was written by veterans.
I don't know, my first year was in 2007, some very nasty storms that year, I managed to not die and even have some fun during the storms. The truth is, it ain't THAT hard out there, even in dust storms. There is the possibility of a really serious storm like in 2001 the day after the event, I guess, but even veterans won't be prepared for that because almost nobody has experience with that. What could happen (and probably will) is a lot more MOOP, and a lot more tailgate-type behavior, which sucks. The tone of the event really depends on self-policing, the stinkeye (and worse) you get if your costume is leaking feathers all over the playa, for instance. It's not a top-down mandate that preserves that, it comes from "the community." I supposed that is in jeopardy if there are far more newbies than vets. I don't know. I'm just typing here.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by remi » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:50 am

Interesting read..

"The best solution would have been to leave it alone. Let it be organic. Let it be. . . Fertile. Do we really need the same wonderful camps and art doing basically the same wonderful thing every year for the last decade? Maybe the more supporting players in those groups who ARE holding tickets would have stepped up to new creative and leadership positions and give us something we wondered how the event ever survived without. Or maybe those things would have come from someone who had never been there."


and then about 1 ticket through STEP being a blessing..

"I have witnessed jealous husbands and wives who come out to Burning Man but they actually hate the burn in their hearts. They only do it to keep tabs on their Mrs / Mr. They bring drama-drama-drama because of their fear. And now those insecure people have to stay home. HOORAY! See, this poop situation has birthed a positive effect."

Lots of interesting views.

EDIT: I support BMOrgs decision to allocate the remaining tickets, and I disagree with the 2nd statement.. but I just thought they were intersting views from another page I would share.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by gibson_ » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:04 pm

Yes, everybody was a virgin at one time.

I was a virgin last year.

This was after I had been hearing about this thing every year since 2001, though, and every year hearing about how fucking insane the weather can be.

The worry is that a lot of these people think they're going to a happy fun relaxing music festival in the desert, and won't be prepared. Previously, you pretty much had to have burner friends to even know what burning man was. These friends were there to hold your hand through planning, and were there to make sure that you had your shit covered.

I had countless phone calls and beer-sessions with one of my long-time burner friends last year in preparation, checking, re-checking, re-checking, and then checking again everything that I had to make sure that everything was covered.

And then on the day we left for the playa, spending an hour on the phone with him again, rechecking, again, to make sure that everything was covered.

The problem is: how many of these virgins don't have that this year? That's what a lot of us are concerned about. Last year went completely smooth for my camp for two reasons:

1) We had a rock-solid network of friends who could tell us what to prepare for, how to prepare for it, that could steer us in the right direction, etc.
2) The weather last year was a nice sunny day at the beach.

#2 is *definitely* not going to be true this year, and a lot of us are scared that for a lot of these people, #1 isn't going to be either.

It's not just hating the virgins, it's being worried about them.

(This is something I wrote on stuff that they should be prepared for: http://thingist.com/t/item/23807/)

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by alt12 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:14 pm

Colonel Monk wrote:
Thanks for helping me articulate my point. We all know that as a virgin you just don't know what the hell you're getting yourself into, and other than feeding yourself and keeping yourself from being incinerated, you don't really know what you're doing.

Waynerd, please, I don't hate you for being a newb - that you're here in ePlaya and really trying to learn all you can about the ropes months before you go says A LOT.

I'm talking about those with no real ties to the event, who buy a ticket because time magazine said it was awesome, show up in street clothes on thursday, get drunk for 72 hours, watch the man burn, and then leave immediately on Sunday and really just came to stare. Like it or not, there is a significant portion of these kinda of people that come to burning man, and in this situation of ticket scarcity I want their effing ticket for those of us who contribute

Fair enough but how on earth are you going to predict who will be a "contributing virgin" and who will be a "clueless dumbass." Unless you have psychic powers we're not aware of, its going to be hard to tell purely from ticket application who will fall into which category.

There is no way to predict what someone will do at BM at their first time purely based on the fact that they are virgins. I've had virgin camp-mates that were seriously out of place, had a miserable time, and never returned, I've had virgins who worked their ass off on year-1 pre-event and post-event, I've had virgins who fucked-off the first year and came back on year 2 and kicked ass (myself included!), even saw an obvious virgin neighbor pull-up with his girlfriend in a shiny BMW SUV basically hide in their car for two days and leave.... Without knowing these personally I would imagine its impossible to predict how they will turn out....


Our camp instituted a policy last year of having virgin camp-mates be "nominated" by a current member and set-up limits on how many virgins any one particular member could bring. This helped get virgins more involved in working on the camp and art projects but by no means guaranteed great participation....We've had upwards of 50% virgins in the camp at one time and aside from the camp being just a bit too big it worked it fine. Being a virgin says nothing about you.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by aidenus » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:29 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves.
Really? Who;s saying ALL virgins will be unable to take care of themselves?

All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.

The entire Burning Man project is at stake.

If you want to camp in a wide open space without art, trance music and jaded old stale-blood burners who know what they're doing, check out the Alvord just north of the Black Rock Range. No lie, it is awesome, and the newcomers haven't fucked it all up like they did to Fourth of Juplaya by requiring the BLM to step in and take notice. There were hot springs on private property but of course new people with no respect for what the others built came along and trashed the tub areas. I don't know if he's rebuilt the structure yet, or if he even lets people use it anymore. Somebody stole the sign at the other springs nearby that warn you about toxic levels of arsenic in the water. So, if you're a newbie and it looks like a nice place to soak, well... the Black Rock Desert seems like a nice place to drink beer and run around barefoot all day long too.

Here's a question: How many virgins know what to expect if there's a white-out during, say, Exodus, and they have to sit in the vehicle with their windows up for eight hours? In 2010, they closed the gate for several hours because of the storm. Our van reached 120 degrees inside and if we ran the A/C, eventually the engine overheated. On the other hand, at least we had A/C. Anybody who opened the vents and turned on the fan might as well have just rolled down the window.

Have any of you, virgin or veteran, considered what 25,000 people will do in the Exodus line if some car right in the middle of it catches on fire?

That's why the Survival Guide was written by veterans.

I have to agree with Zaphod on this one. Listen, generalizations are ALWAYS going to be well, general. The assumption here is that there is a higher chance that a dumb tourist virgins will OD on some shitty drugs or get drunk and free fall 25 feet to their death of a structure and ruin the event for everyone, than say, a veteran.

Yes of course, a veteran burner can do something stupid, but the I'd say the chances are less likely (that whole, experience is a great teacher thing). This is not a Veteren vs. Virgin argument, but an experience argument. Aka There is a higher probability I will be better at you than let's say, Super Mario Brothers if I have played 10 times, and you have never played.

Due to the nature of the sell out, and the fact that you had to be on-top of your game this year to get a ticket. I predict you will have a much more educated virgin this year - Although it is possible that this could be negated by the virgins who bought two tickets in the lottery for "safety", and decided to invite a friend who really isn't into the 10 principles or open to all the energy that makes up the event. Time will tell!

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by Finxiekins » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:31 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves.
Really? Who;s saying ALL virgins will be unable to take care of themselves?

All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.

The entire Burning Man project is at stake.

If you want to camp in a wide open space without art, trance music and jaded old stale-blood burners who know what they're doing, check out the Alvord just north of the Black Rock Range. No lie, it is awesome, and the newcomers haven't fucked it all up like they did to Fourth of Juplaya by requiring the BLM to step in and take notice. There were hot springs on private property but of course new people with no respect for what the others built came along and trashed the tub areas. I don't know if he's rebuilt the structure yet, or if he even lets people use it anymore. Somebody stole the sign at the other springs nearby that warn you about toxic levels of arsenic in the water. So, if you're a newbie and it looks like a nice place to soak, well... the Black Rock Desert seems like a nice place to drink beer and run around barefoot all day long too.

Here's a question: How many virgins know what to expect if there's a white-out during, say, Exodus, and they have to sit in the vehicle with their windows up for eight hours? In 2010, they closed the gate for several hours because of the storm. Our van reached 120 degrees inside and if we ran the A/C, eventually the engine overheated. On the other hand, at least we had A/C. Anybody who opened the vents and turned on the fan might as well have just rolled down the window.

Have any of you, virgin or veteran, considered what 25,000 people will do in the Exodus line if some car right in the middle of it catches on fire?

That's why the Survival Guide was written by veterans.
Let me put it this way: I've seen a lot of condescending remarks about virgins. It's disappointing. Not all virgins will be stupid. It's a beautiful thing that the guide was written by burners and I think that's a great way to introduce people to the playa. I appreciate the veterans very much, but I think there's something to be said for a well-educated virgin.

There are things that people can come up with in an emergency situation that require logic and survival skills. This is what this is all about, right? Survival in a harsh environment. It can be hard, and yes, I do agree that there are people that have NO CLUE what to do in that sort of situation. However, I refuse to be one of those people that have no fucking clue what to do to protect themselves. I've been reading up on survival in desert environments, what to do in panic situations among huge crowds. I will not be ill-prepared and I've met a lot of virgins with the same sentiment.

It's not about who is a virgin or not - It's about survival, no matter who you may be.

I never meant for my post to be condescending or rude to veterans, that's not what I'm all about. I just thought I would point out that the virgins are not a collective group of idiots. Sure, I bet a bunch of them are - But I think with the ePlaya count growing every day there will be far less-informed people than initially thought. I respect what the veterans have done and I hope to meet many! I may be well-informed, but I'm sure there are things that I have yet to learn. But, alas, I'm going on a bunny-trail. All respect to you man, and I see what you're saying and I agree wholeheartedly.

In retrospect, maybe that first sentence on my post was a bit rude. (Agh, not good at this debating over the internet thing! I apologize far too easily!) I hope to meet you on the playa, even if we may disagree.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by packlet » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:37 pm

So if they'll be assigning the 10k tickets to camps/MV/artists, wouldn't you think they'd add some questions about that to the registration forms?
Registration for camps/MV/art/etc supposedly opened yesterday (feb 15th), but while the existing forms ask if you've purchased a ticket
they don't appear to ask how many you might need to bring your 'thing' to the playa... Anyone care to comment on that? Thanx.

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Re: Birgen Man 2012

Post by Brianna_Beauty413 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:40 pm

Colonel Monk wrote:Hey Brianna

YER DOIN IT WRONG! hahahaha, don't you know that as some gaper newb you're supposed to show up with nothing but your camera and binoculars? :lol:

Seriously though, you're doing it right, as right as you can not knowing what to expect. That's all I ask of any newb, is a willingness to learn and make it important and not just some multi-day party with boobies.

Yer aces, you deserve your ticket, and don't get all bummed out because I'm raking bucket list newbs over the coals because they have MY ticket.

rock onward

OH I'm definitely willing and ready to learn. I'm sure no matter how much I "prepare" for BM - it will still be one of the biggest challenges I've ever experienced. I say prepared in quotations because I believe you can work and work to get ready for BM but nothing will have prepared you for what you are going to see and experience! :mrgreen:
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by MedullaB » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:56 pm

My fear isn't necessarily of virgins - quite frankly I have the same fears of any burners who have not expereinced the absolute fierceness that playa weather can throw at you.

The last two burns I see more and more structures not properly secured, the last two years no problems since there hasn't been any major winds...

I just don't want to see a mangled aluminum EZ up come flying towards me at 45 mph.


My virgin year, I had one of those ez ups, but had also read... lots... fortunately I had many 16" rebar stakes holding it down - two to each corner. It STILL took me and my camp mate to hold it together during the bad windstorm in 2007. I recall vividly wathing those 16" rebar stakes starting to wiggle and pull out of the ground. CRAZY.

Virgins and veterens who've never been through that - PLEASE - not only read the survival guide, make it your bible! :D

Hope to see ALL of you safe on the Playa!

MB
M

Anything worth planning is worth over planning...

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by hotmess » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:56 pm

And when people forget they get lazy. Or they simply don't know. For anyone who went last year for the first time and thought, "hey I know what I'm doing, my tent didn't fly away", don't count on that this year. My philosophy, you think you got enough rebar, add 5 more.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by vargaso » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:31 pm

some virgins turn out to be great and some of them should never have had a ticket wasted on them
Who's to decide that? People can learn a lot about themselves from a terrible experience. About their limits, about what they thought they were into, etc. Just because someone has a shitty time on the playa and ends up not contributing that much to the greater event, doesn't mean the experience wasn't valuable to that person.

This is why I'm against allocating tickets to certain groups. There is no right way to do Burning Man, that's what makes it such a profound gathering. It touches people in all kinds of ways, and even (or especially) the negative experiences are valuable.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by Gravybrain » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:50 pm

If you are a Birgin and you are here on e-playa actively discussing the event, preperation, culture, etc.... you are probably going to be fine no matter what and have an awesome time, welcome. To the members of Ifeltathigh or whatever your frat is.....

Don't be a darkwad!

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by Dr Helix » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:13 pm

The CO wrote:
Colonel Monk wrote:don't forget they started the ticket selling process this year with elitism - 3000 tickets for $420 each, highest priced tickets yet.
They've sold presale tickets for a few years before this.
It's funny that the term "elitism" is used here in terms of the pre-sale. I got that a lot when I told some of my fellow campers that I had put in for the pre-sale even though the difference between those tickets and the high tier was only $30.00. And when I did get lucky and hit the pre-sale lottery, their reaction was that I had gottern an "expensive" ticket and that they would all save money by getting theirs in the lottery. Well the lottery came and went and not of these people hit. "We'll get 'em in the open sale" they said, knowing full well that the only price for those tickets would be $390.00. Well we all know how the open sale ended. NOW, they call and want to know if I have any to sell. When I revealed to another burner that I had a ticket he snapped off a "no need to gloat about it!" Huh? And because I got a presale ticket I'm part of the "elite?" Ahhh hell.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by waynerd » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:37 pm

Colonel Monk wrote: Wnerd, stop taking this personally. We KNOW you're gonna rock, but when you finally experience a week at burning man you'll know what we are talking about - especially if the playa conditions are difficult. You'll see the 7,000 idiots who show up Thursday night and leave Sunday morning, and then you'll realize why we feel their ticket is better off in our pocket.

Chill, and keep prepping, we are happy to have you - you just have to figure out when to include yourself in "idiot gaper virgin" or not. We aren't putting you in there, YOU are! :lol:
Colonel,
Once you get to know me you'll realize I don't take a whole lot personally. I realize you're generalizing, I get it, and as far as the infants, well that's just my sarcastic side coming out. No disrespect at all. If anything it's setting myself up to look like a complete idiot when I forget something important like a tent. (hopefully kidding)

I'm looking at Burning man not only as an experience but as a challenge, just like driving backroads across Canada and living out of a SUV for 4 months through winter, from coast to coast was. The following year I wandered around the US Southwest for 4 months, granted water, truckstop showers and a decent meal weren't far away.

Burning Man for me is a chance to step it up for a week. Hell, I'd be into it even if the event was a month long. So yeah, I'm spending time learning, reading about things I may not have thought about on my own and hopefully will be as prepared as possible, like all virgins should be. At this point I'm not sure about joining a camp, I may decide to just wing it on my own, I'm still open to anything that will add to the experience at this point and have no problem contributing where I can.

So anyway, no hard feelings here, no disrespect to the veterans at all. Just try not to lump all us virgins into the same pile.

Now, where are the free drinks and boobies??!! ;)
Excuse me, this is way different than what was described in the brochure!

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by vargaso » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:45 pm

just like driving backroads across Canada and living out of a SUV for 4 months through winter,
I can guarantee that is far tougher than a week at Burning Man. You have zero to worry about. Many of us like to exaggerate how "hard" our little camping trip is. Truth is, if you like camping in general, it's ain't that hard.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by DrYes » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:47 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
DrYes wrote:
Poor analogy. Relationships are built between people, and time invested counts towards building that relationship. Showing up at Burning Man every year does not, in and of itself, add any value to the event.
Well, you are right. Time invested counts toward building that relationship. By your own words, showing up does not add value. My camp has been working for over a year to get to this point, and we've been an LNT camp every year we've attended. This will be our fourth year as a group and we've all volunteered at other camps, taken on extra responsibilities on and off playa, but, whatever.
Oh, I hear you. Our camp, which has been together over 10 years, has fallen apart and won't be on the playa this year. Bums me out, as I only started camping with them last year.
Time invested only counts if you're one of the few thousand that didn't game the system. 43,000 others got tickets regardless of whether they invested anything or not. All it takes is a Visa card. No matter what, and in your words, showing up does, in and of itself, add any value to the community or traditions we've all helped create and tried to sustain.
I didn't game the system and also didn't get a ticket, and am assuming there's no way the STEP program is going to provide, particularly as I'm not going without my soon-to-be-wife and we only registered once. It sucks, but some people that want to go won't be able to go. I can't really fault the system just because I'm in the group that probably won't get to go (ugh, that's the first time I've admitted to myself that I probably won't get to go this year).

You know, for whatever it's worth too, I don't think that being a birgin and contributing to the event are implicitly opposing ideas. There seems to be this idea that birgins have to be wide-eyed does wandering around, nevermind what other things they've done in their lives. Birgins aren't idiots and they're not children. My first year, most of my campmates only discovered I wasn't a veteran after we got back from the burn. I contributed plenty to the camp (a minor sound camp) and the event itself. I'm sure a lot of birgins do too.

And heck, my single favorite encounter on the playa last year was coming back from Opulent's Wed night white party in the wee hours, my girlfriend and I both sparklepony'd to the hilt, and started talking to a young (maybe 19?) birgin who had JUST arrived and hadn't even made it to the esplanade yet. Ok, so he was actually a bit doe-eyed, but considering he JUST got there, I won't blame him. I remember he was wearing a suit. He was great to talk to and he made me feel really good about Burning Man in general, as seeing it through his eyes was even better than through mine (and it's damn good through mine). Never saw him again, but seriously, my favorite human encounter last year.

To be fair, I guess that's also a point in favor of your idea that just showing up is contributing (minus being an odd hermit who never interacts with anyone else, perhaps).
DrYes wrote: Just being a veteran is of no value to everyone else,
LOL! Let's agree not to have this conversation at Arlington Cemetery.
Totally. I wonder what they'd do to a shirtcocker there.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by Galaxo Magic » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:05 pm

5280MeV wrote:
Galaxo Magic wrote: I don't know what this implies and it is a very small sample. My experience in 11-years of going is that a % of birgens (maybe 40-50%) end up being great burners, the other 50-60% end up being yahoo dumbasses. On the other hand, all the veteran burners in our camp (100%) are great burners, hard working, participants. What does it mean? I have no fracking idea.....but makes me feel like veterans have the edge on birgens. JMHO
Ok, so from what I know of you and your camp, you bring a giant mobile pink elephant with a party balcony (which I want to ride on!) and you keep the music at a level to respect your neighbors and the conversations of your riders as you drive through the city.

I'm just not sure that your camp is a representative sample of the average veteran burner camp.
I grant you that. In 2008 I brought 4 Birgens and they were uber-prepared! Our camp rocked. Yes, we don't blast loud music, some years we don't have music, you don't need it, it is every where around you anyways.
That is to say, camps of veteran burners who provide wonderful elephant vehicles are - on average - "better than the average virgin burner"
We worked hard for four years to improve our camp and presentation. It is an on-going process.
My one data point is that I definitely have a massive edge on me one year ago. I pretty much spent 99% of my time just wandering around trying to be self-reliant in the desert, meeting people, and sharing what little I had brought beyond what I needed. Now I kinda have a plan, I am working on making stuff, figuring out a volunteering strategy, getting more involved.
Awesome
But here is another experience:

When I was a teacher, it was pretty much a given that first-year (maybe I shouldn't use the word virgin for this?) teachers were kind of a mess. Granted, many do a decent job, but the second year is a world of difference. This is certainly how it was for me. Although I got good feedback, and managed to get the students through some rigorous math courses with a high success rate, my classroom management was a total embarrassment in retrospect. So veteran teachers definitely have the edge.

However, the standard in education for pay scale and everything else is just how many rings there are around the tree - at most schools at least. Once you get into a school, it is damn near impossible to get fired for general incompetence. Schools end up with piles of deadwood that just soak up salary raises and divert resources from young and enthusiastic teachers.


Also, isn't the point of all this - at least on some basic level - to go out and have a good time for a week? Is this discussion really happening?
Certainly, deadwood can happen (hey, I am getting old). ha . This is a good argument. There is a learning curve and a curve of losing interest. What is the optimal number of times to be a Burner? 0 years? 3 years? 6 years? 10 years? No good answer. My first year (2001) was awesome. I was fully contributing by 2003 with a mini-MV. In 11 years I have reinvented myself 3 times. If I didn't I would have been a dumbass veteran (which I was in 2007). Bringing the 4 Birgens in 2008 reinvigorated me.

Change is good and I hope that many Birgens have an awesome time and carry on this fine event! My burns are numbered. This will be 12, not sure I can reinvent myself any more at my age.....
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by vargaso » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:09 pm

DrYes wrote:And heck, my single favorite encounter on the playa last year was coming back from Opulent's Wed night white party in the wee hours, my girlfriend and I both sparklepony'd to the hilt, and started talking to a young (maybe 19?) birgin who had JUST arrived and hadn't even made it to the esplanade yet. Ok, so he was actually a bit doe-eyed, but considering he JUST got there, I won't blame him. I remember he was wearing a suit. He was great to talk to and he made me feel really good about Burning Man in general, as seeing it through his eyes was even better than through mine (and it's damn good through mine). Never saw him again, but seriously, my favorite human encounter last year.
Yes and yes. I LOVE running into burgins and listening to them gush and awe and be so damn happy and overwhelmed and appreciative. My favorite encounter from 2011 was also with a burgin, we were having a little dance party at camp, the sound system was going, I was playing my drumkit, and bunch of others were banging on various percussion, and a couple young dudes (early 20s) wandered in just wide-eyed (from wonder and drugs, sure, but you know...), and one of them steps up to the mic (oh yes, we have a mic) and starts rapping in Swedish. Ha! And he was GOOD! And afterwards, we all hugged, and of course he spoke perfect English, and he asked a million questions and couldn't believe how cool our camp was (and we're a relatively small camp), and we downed some shots and the went on their way. So much fun! And couldn't have happened with a veteran.

So, yeah, burgins, gotta love 'em.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by Galaxo Magic » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:12 pm

Gravybrain wrote:If you are a Birgin and you are here on e-playa actively discussing the event, preperation, culture, etc.... you are probably going to be fine no matter what and have an awesome time, welcome. To the members of Ifeltathigh or whatever your frat is.....don't be a darkwad.
I was going to post that! Birgens that are on ePlaya are way ahead of the curve. Question, what % of Birgens will read the Survival Guide? What % of Birgens will come to ePlaya and learn? Probably not enough.

There is no replacement for experience. So Birgens, you got some experience in your future! Bring it!
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by BBadger » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:16 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
BBadger wrote: What makes a veteran any more worthy than a burgin? The fact that they went there before is hardly a qualification. It better not carry much weight in the ticket distribution--that would be unfairly treating (favoring) veteran burners.
What makes a wife any more worthy than mistress? Sweat equity and time invested, for starters.
I'd call that a flawed analogy, but it is actually a very accurate one, but only framed in only one light.

What if the spouse is just a deadbeat along for the ride? If the spouse is the reason a mistress was taken on?

There are good reasons that 50% of marriages end in divorce. Obviously the investment isn't always qualified.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by Shevarash » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:24 pm

If i bring this, will i be welcomed as a "good burgin"? (c'mon, you know you dont want to stumble all the way to those portapotties..;))
Image

I do understand the sense of entitlement some of the veteran* burners seem to have though; you laid out the track for us new ones, helped giving the BM soul it has now, invested a lot to make home home. Seeing droves of peeps coming over who throw most of the 10 principles overboard and only are there to have one mean drugsexanythinggoesfreeboozeflipoutpartaaay, must feel like someone slapping your baby. As veteran* burner i'd be bloody pissed to lose my ticket over such person too. I know good peeps will be welcomed by the good peeps overthere...but im just rehashing, just wanted to put a heart under your belts...
* not just a mooping asshole who has been there a couple of years already.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by BBadger » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:34 pm

aidenus wrote:I have to agree with Zaphod on this one. Listen, generalizations are ALWAYS going to be well, general. The assumption here is that there is a higher chance that a dumb tourist virgins will OD on some shitty drugs or get drunk and free fall 25 feet to their death of a structure and ruin the event for everyone, than say, a veteran.
You want to generalize? Try thinking a little more general, and not prequalifying the people you're comparing such as "dumb tourist virgins." Quite frankly I'd rather not have "dumb tourist veterans" either.

Really, I don't have any faith that veterans are really any smarter or better than virgins, or that I'd feel I'd want to be around the former rather than the latter. I have seen no evidence that would sway me either way. The vets and burgins I met last year were pretty equal in terms of their ability to handle themselves.

There are some factors that I believe correlates with an improved population of attendees. For example, I'd claim that how early in the week a person arrives highly correlates with the quality of the attendee.

I'd also say that feeling compelled to state how many years one has attended BM also highly correlates with a person being an asshole.

I don't want "vets" who think that being a "vet" entitles them to anything. You want to argue that you bring more to the playa because you have the experience and capability to do so? That is a compelling argument. Simply being around longer? That is not. In fact, that is a fundamentally stupid metric, the kind of thing that goes on in places like the US Post Office.
Shevs wrote:If i bring this, will i be welcomed as a "good burgin"? (c'mon, you know you dont want to stumble all the way to those portapotties..;))
You'll be opening up a huge can (or pants) of worms with that!

Oh yeah, I really enjoy your avatar.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by Shevarash » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:55 pm

Thanks BBadger!
Oops, i was just posting the urinal for a laugh; nothing too crazy for Burning Man eehh?! :D (i'd actually like the idea, but no way i could ever dispose it properly, coming over with a 2-person tent and a rented Panda car... plus, the smells in the blazing heat *gag*)

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by mshaman » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:02 pm

@Piehole, @Waynerd, if you dudes are representative of the incoming crew, I'm happy. You're both welcome to hang out in the Lustrous In-Dust-rious camp whenever you want, if you want. 7:30 & J, We've got margaritas waiting at sunset and bacon waiting at breakfast.

My concern is around the 4 ravers who show up with a couple of cases of beer and a can of Pringles, hoping to sell their acid for $100/hit to what must surely be a captive market. They don't have room in their ricered-out Honda for a tent because of the subwoofer in the back. It was a nice car a year ago when mommy and daddy bought it for them, but now it's completely worked over. One of my camp-mates witnessed this at Alchemy in Georgia... a commercial event where it grew from 900 to 2700 in one year... as he relates it, it was a rave, not a burn, and no one had ever heard of Leave No Trace... the median age was about 20 and everyone was trying to steal his stuff. He had to lock EVERYTHING to keep people from rifling through it looking for food, drugs, or valuables. People would actually walk into his tent while he was there and start opening coolers, boxes, whatever. These folks are not the virgins here on the board, they are the "children of entitlement" from a party-school who want nothing but to roll and fuck. Don't get me wrong, I like both activities myself, but there is an element of responsibility that they miss. At Alchemy it showed up in the place looking like a back-alley in New Delhi, trash and wanton destruction everywhere.

The above scenario is one I'd like to avoid at the big burn. The burgins on this board actually give a fuck, which is why they're here. They are not the problem, they are the solution.
The road of life is littered with flat squirrels who couldn't decide.

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Post by Canoe » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:10 pm

[quote="Gravybrain"]If you are a Birgin and you are here on e-playa actively discussing the event, preperation, culture, etc.... you are probably going to be fine no matter what and have an awesome time, welcome. /quote]
+1000
-1
And have read the Survival Guide and recommended materials.

It's the ones that fly/drive in and arrive on-playa with an uninformed selection of equipment without understanding what's required or what they'll be facing in the environment of the playa that we're worried about. 'Cause we've ended up helping them in one form or another. We see the uninformed, mis-equipped and improperly provisioned all the time. For 2012 they'll be more of them needing help, and fewer return Burners to provide guidance or assistance before it reaches the point where it requires official resources. If you know a Virgin who hasn't found the Official Survival Guide yet, point it and ePlaya out to them. Please? Hopefully before they spend any money on equipment or supplies. It will help everybody.
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