"No means no. This is this." -Deniro

Mosin · Post by **Mosin** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:32 pm

Just curious as to how others here (who, for the most part seem to be planning ahead to be radically self reliant) deal with friends/family and/or other Burners who essentially seem to plan on letting others take care of the details for them... AT THE BURN. I just had to read the riot act to a friend who said he was going (no ticket yet of course and didn't know there are no door sales) and, among other inane things, asked if I or another friend could "swing by two quick stops on the way to the Burn and pick up a craigslist used a/c and generator" for him in Vacaville and Sacto. He wasn't planning on testing them first, nor has he thought of ANY of the issues he would have to deal with to work this out for his van (baffling for the genny and for the a/c where it mounted up to the vehicle... how to mount it up to the vehicle... GASOLINE etc etc.) OK now here's the kicker. When I hit him up with all of these anal-retentive little details, he said "Well, somebody there should have some weatherstripping and stuff to make a baffle or whatever you're talking about, right?"

"No"

"What do you mean, 'No'?"

"No means no man. Ever seen the Deer Hunter?"

"Yeah, but what has this got to do with it? You carry spares for just about everything you freak."

"No Steve (pseudonym to protect the innocent), I carry spares for myself and other people who have their shit together but might have broken something or accidentally forgot something. Not for 'everything.' See this? <pointing to water bottle> This is this. No means no."

"Whatever dude. Why the stress? I thought you said this was all about the Love."

!!!

This is when I had to break my foot off in his ass...in plain language sans film reference...BM is not about planning on having other people wipe your ass...if it was it would be overloaded with leeches and kooks. As if I am going to detour to buy and port an untested used a/c and genny (and the gas you forgot about) to the playa so you can test them there and hit me and our neighbors up for all the shit that you forgot or didn't consider. Yes, BM is about sharing and community and helping and love etc, but if you are already planning on NOT having your shit together before hitting the playa please stay home.

OK, so two questions.... first, can anyone relate to my annoyance with this? Second, am I really a "stresser" invoking Deniro (i.e. No means no/This is this?) in this and similar cases?

XO
Mo'sin

CLARKcon · Post by **CLARKcon** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:52 pm

Sounds like you said it straight

It is what it is, i.e.-"this is this". It wouldn't have been good to say "Oh yeah man, e v e r y t h i n g will be out there for your disposal. No water? That's ok! It's a desert, I'm sure there's plenty abounds..." I personally bring/plan like I'm the only one going, so if I have spare, then it's a bonus. It is fair to say that if someone is "banking" on having the actual survival necessities provided them (water, food, shelter, clothing)...they should not go willingly to a inhospitable natural environment.

EB · Post by EB » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:59 pm

Dude, you're going to lurve the Zsu-Zsu Project! Look for the giant Eifel Tower on the playa!

re: friends/family. Yeah, well, that's why we love them. If the Burn was just a bunch of anal type A's like ourselves, it wouldn't be much fun. Who would we get to bitch about?!

At least YOU'RE on the ball, right?

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:02 pm

I can relate. The majority of people up here were born with a silver spoon in their ass and expect someone else to do everything for them.
No you're not a stresser.

There is one thing I tell myself in such situations.
"Everyone learns the hard way"

Tell him to read the survival guide. Specially the part about self reliance. He will wise up either at home, or on the playa. Don't give in and do everything for them. They have to make an effort to do things for themselves or there is just no point in wasting your time.

This is not a love-fest. Its a camping trip in some pretty harsh conditions. If you can't "rough it", this is not the place for you.

One other thing I tell myself:
"No pity for self-inflicted"

Badger

Post by **AntiM** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:17 pm

I've had to let a long time friend go ... he asked me last minute to haul his shit, I refused, he got huffy and said we never included him, I pointed out he was only included when it served his purposes like at Burning Man, he insulted me and I told him to not bother me anymore.

Essentially. There were other problems, but the event planning was the tipping point.

Then there's the "experienced" rendevous camper, a friend of a friend (ex-friend now). "Can you haul our tent poles?" Sure? Then she shows up ... we're meeting her halfway... with frickin' 14~20 foot wooden poles. WTF? Couldn't you tell me it was a canvas expedition tent? At a regional on a dry lakebed like the playa, and she wants to know if she could dig a trench around her tent in case it rains. Huh? And didn't bring a camp stove because she only knew how to cook over fires. She brought a lot of food, perishables, and got insulted when we all wandered off to do our thing instead of showing up at her set mealtimes. I had to clean up fried egg sandwiches which she left out in camp in the sun. They were good, but she didn't ask who wanted one, just cooked up huge batches and set them out. She cooked five pounds of bacon and didn't have a single paper towel to clean up the grease off my cookstove. "I usually just throw it in the fire." Argh.

Just because we have a trailer does not mean we can just toss your shit on top of it.

Mosin · Post by **Mosin** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:22 pm

Thanks for the responses folks! Indeed, we love our less-prepared virgins and veterans, but willful/knowing slackage has to be met with Tough Love. I know others at our camp will pull a Chris Walken (i.e. "What --- the fuck is wrong --- with you? Give him the ------ damn ----weather ---- stripping") but This is This.

mojo · Post by **mojo** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:27 pm

Another warning about this type of friend - they tend to become the lazy fucktard that won't pull his own weight in camp.

steveboy · Post by **steveboy** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:50 pm

There's a whole mentality that invokes "The Playa provides" for EVERYTHING. It drives me nuts. My response is usually, no, the Playa doesn't provide, people who are responsible and aware of people like you provide. The same people who will go on and on about the generous spirit that pervades BM will themselves do absolutely nothing about that spirit but be consumers.

cunfuzelled · Post by **cunfuzelled** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:31 pm

if i had the capability of letting my feelings out as clearly as you i would have a much more stable mental self. i feel exactly the same as you

[quote="Mosin"]Just curious as to how others here (who, for the most part seem to be planning ahead to be radically self reliant) deal with friends/family and/or other Burners who essentially seem to plan on letting others take care of the details for them... AT THE BURN. I just had to read the riot act to a friend who said he was going (no ticket yet of course and didn't know there are no door sales) and, among other inane things, asked if I or another friend could "swing by two quick stops on the way to the Burn and pick up a craigslist used a/c and generator" for him in Vacaville and Sacto. He wasn't planning on testing them first, nor has he thought of ANY of the issues he would have to deal with to work this out for his van (baffling for the genny and for the a/c where it mounted up to the vehicle... how to mount it up to the vehicle... GASOLINE etc etc.) OK now here's the kicker. When I hit him up with all of these anal-retentive little details, he said "Well, somebody there should have some weatherstripping and stuff to make a baffle or whatever you're talking about, right?"

"No"

"What do you mean, 'No'?"

"No means no man. Ever seen the Deer Hunter?"

"Yeah, but what has this got to do with it? You carry spares for just about everything you freak."

"No Steve (pseudonym to protect the innocent), I carry spares for myself and other people who have their shit together but might have broken something or accidentally forgot something. Not for 'everything.' See this? <pointing to water bottle> This is this. No means no."

"Whatever dude. Why the stress? I thought you said this was all about the Love."

!!!

This is when I had to break my foot off in his ass...in plain language sans film reference...BM is not about planning on having other people wipe your ass...if it was it would be overloaded with leeches and kooks. As if I am going to detour to buy and port an untested used a/c and genny (and the gas you forgot about) to the playa so you can test them there and hit me and our neighbors up for all the shit that you forgot or didn't consider. Yes, BM is about sharing and community and helping and love etc, but if you are already planning on NOT having your shit together before hitting the playa please stay home.

OK, so two questions.... first, can anyone relate to my annoyance with this? Second, am I really a "stresser" invoking Deniro (i.e. No means no/This is this?) in this and similar cases?

XO
Mo'sin[/quote]

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:39 pm

I've seen the deer hunter but I have no fucking clue what your reference to it means!?

I'm guessing there is more context to all this because a lot of things end up being done last minute, including whole buildings being first assembled on playa.
It's true that the most insignificant things will be the ones no one has at all, and suddenly you find they are critical to something.
You just never know what that will be.

I made elaborate plans to go to the burn starting in 1995 and there was always interference.
When I finally got to go, I had two weeks to get things together.
Just lucky to pull it off (long commute).

This year, I'm thinking I won't be sure I'm going until I head out of town.
The car is waiting for parts from oregon, an issue I've been trying to solve for a long time, but intermittent. Now dead.
Dealing with really major security issues here that are soaking up all my money and time.
And the future mv is in boxes because I haven't had time to work on it.
Still want to go, but I feel like I'm juggling.
Always better to avoid it, but last minute stuff happens.
If I didn't have the distance, I could solve all this stuff pretty easily, but together...

steveboy · Post by **steveboy** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:43 pm

After he gets back from his tour and his friends are messing around with guns, Deniro takes his friends' pistol and puts it in the guy's face and plays Russian Roulette with it (imagine his chagrin if it had gone off. Luckily this was happening in Hollywoodland) and then holds up the gun and says, "You see this? This is this. This ain't something else. This ... is this." Man, that Melville just flows trippingly from the tongue, dunnit?

I think this is the scene he's referring to when he says "no means no."

Mosin · Post by **Mosin** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:17 am

It's the scene where they prep for the last hunt before heading off to Vietnem:

EXT. ROADSIDE AREA - DAWN - LATER

Shots are ringing out in the hills. NICK, ALBERT and JOHN
stand by the roadside while VINCE and MERLE glare at each
other. VINCE is still in his tuxedo pants, is still wearing
his dress shoes and is draped in a gigantic red goose down
vest that could only have come from ALBERT. MERLE's knapsack
lies on the ground in front of him and we can see that it
contains a pair of Vibram-soled mountain boots.

MERLE
Sure I got boots. I got boots right
here.

VINCE
Then lemme have 'em.

MERLE
No.

VINCE
(both hands in the air)
No!!!?

MERLE
No.

VINCE
What do you mean, no???

MERLE
That's it. No means no. No way.

VINCE
Some fuckin' friend... You're some
fuckin' friend, Merle!

MERLE
You gotta learn, Vince! You come
out here... You got no jacket, you
got no pants, you got no knife and
you got no boots. You think
everyone's gonna take care of you!
That's what you always think, but
this time you're wrong. This time
you're on your own!

ALBERT
Merle, give him the boots.

MERLE
No. No boots. No nothin'.

VINCE
You're one fuckin' bastard, Merle.
You know that? You're one fucking
bastard!

MERLE
(snapping it out, jabbing
his finger at the ground)
This is this, Vince. This isn't
something else. This is this!

VINCE
You know what I think? There's
times I think you're a goddamn
faggot!... I fixed you up a million
times, Merle!
(to the others)
I fixed him up a million times! I
don't know how many times I fixed
him up... and nothin' ever
happens... Zilch! Zero!... The
trouble with you, Merle, no one
knows what you're talking about!
"This is this"? What does that
mean, "this is this"? I mean is
that some faggot bullshit, or is
that some faggot bullshit!!! And if
it isn't, what the hell is it???

JOHN
Vince. Hey, you guys --

VINCE
(hopping now)
Take last night...! Last night he
coulda had twenty fuckin' deer!
More! He coulda had more! And look
what he does! I mean look what he
fuckin' does!!!

JOHN
Vince!!!

JOHN throws up his hands in a comical way.

JOHN (CONT'D)
I'll get the boots.

ALBERT
(in agreement)
Get the boots.

JOHN
(crossing to Merle's
knapsack)
I mean let's get going before --

MERLE -- who has remained completely calm throughout VINCE's
tirade -- pumps a shell in the chamber of his rifle. JOHN
freezes in his tracks and stares at him, his face gone white.

MERLE
I said no.

JOHN looks at ALBERT, who is right behind him, and they both
back away. VINCE, who is standing directly opposite MERLE,
begins to tremble. His mouth comes open, closes and comes
open again. Urine begins trickling out from the bottom of his
pants leg, staining the snow. Suddenly, NICK steps forward.
He looks at MERLE, crosses to the knapsack, takes out the
boots, walks over to VINCE and throws them on the road.

NICK
(gently, to Merle)
Let's hunt.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:19 am

Other than angst, I never attached a lot of significance to the roulette bit.
Maybe I missed something.

steveboy · Post by **steveboy** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:22 am

Ah! Haven't seen it since it first came out; was working from memory. Forgot that the other scene was him echoing the one you just posted.

That movie might have also marked the beginning of Christopher Walken's spooky-face career.

Mosin · Post by **Mosin** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:24 am

btw the above is from the screenplay... a bit different from the movie dialog/action, as Vinnie doesn't wet himself, and John asks Merle something like "What the fuck is wrong with you?" under his breath.

Oh, and I just noticed the names are all different: Walken is "Nick/Nicky", Deniro is Michael.

Anyhoo, good thing we're not allowed to bring firearms anymore.

steveboy · Post by **steveboy** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:25 am

[quote="gyre"]Other than angst, I never attached a lot of significance to the roulette bit.
Maybe I missed something.[/quote]
I think Cimino was trying to illustrate the utter randomness of who makes it and who doesn't, and the effect it has on people, and draw a throughline with De Niro's (I think) philosophy of only allowing himself one shot to bring down a deer. Which all intersects when he finds Walken later on.

Or maybe, you know, it just looked really cool on camera.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:32 am

I guess I always took the movie as more textural than philosophical.

I've known a lot of air cavalry from vietnam and so on.

The part about being silent rings true.
If someone is yelling at me and I go quiet, I'm usually trying to decide how much violence is needed.
They often take it as intimidation.
That's an advantage.

Of course, I may have just decided I don't care what they think anymore.

Mosin · Post by **Mosin** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:46 am

I just found the movie dialog (as opposed to the above screenplay). A bit spicier for sure. I forgot about the whole "Fuckin-A" thing....

<paste>

What the fuck you doin' ? That was mine, you assholes.
Fuckin' assholes. I can't fuckin'--
- Fuckin' A ! - What the fuck ?
You know, Axel, you got a terrific vocabulary.
- Fuckin' A. - Hey, watch the gear.
Watch the rifle. Axel, gimme my bag.
It's gettin' cold, huh ?
Hey, Mike, you got any extra thermal socks ?
Hey, Mike, you got any extra thermal socks ?
Never mind. I got 'em.
Where the hell's my boots ?
Anybody see my boots ?
Somebody took my boots. I bought 'em special.
All right. All right, you guys. Whoever took my boots, I want 'em back.
I got a boot for you, Stan, right up your ass.
- Hey, Mike.
Hey, Mike, lemme borrow your spares, huh ?
- Your extra pair ?
- No, Stan.
No ?
- What do you mean, "No" ?
- Just what I said. No. No means no.
Some fuckin' friend. You're some fuckin' friend, you know that ?
Every time you come here, you got your head up your ass.
- Maybe he likes the view from up there.
Every time he comes up, he's got no knife, no jacket. He's got no pants, no boots. All he's got is that stupid gun he carries like John Wayne. That ain't gonna help ya.
Oh, what the hell, Mike. Give him the boots.
No, I ain't givin' him no boots. No more. That's it.
You're a fuckin' bastard, you know that ? Huh ?
Stanley, see this ? This is this. This ain't somethin' else. This is this. From now on, you're on your own.
I fixed you up a million times.
I fixed him up a million times. I don't know how many times I must've fixed him up with girls.
And nothin' ever happened. Zero. You know your trouble, Mike ? Nobody ever knows what you're talkin' about. "This is this." What the hell's that supposed to mean ? "This is this." Is that faggot-soundin' bullshit, or is that faggot-soundin'--
Shut up, Stan, will ya ? Hey, man, you're outta line.
Watch out with that gun, Stan. Watch out with the gun.
Do you know what I think ? There's times I swear I think you're a faggot.
Hey, come on, you guys.
Last week he could've had that new redheaded waitress at the Bowladrome. He could've had it, but look what he did.
Nothin', that's what.
Shut up, Stan. Just shut up !
Just shut up. Take-- Take Michael's goddamn boots and shut up. Otherwise, I'm goin' home. I'm goin' home right now.
- Get off my stuff. What the hell're you doin' ?
Hey, Stosh.
I said, "No."
What ? Are you gonna shoot me ? Huh ?
Here.
What's the matter with you ?

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:08 am

I like the odd turns these threads seem to take..

gaminwench · Post by **gaminwench** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:18 am

seem to....?

Mosin · Post by **Mosin** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:21 am

gaminwench wrote:seem to....?

If establishing what the basic reference/meaning of the post is (i.e. This is This) is an odd turn, mea culpa!

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:38 am

gaminwench wrote:seem to....?

well ok they almost always do..

"No means no. This is this." -Deniro

"No means no. This is this." -Deniro

Re: "No means no. This is this." -Deniro