BM Virgins from Atlanta, Georgia

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68barracuda
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BM Virgins from Atlanta, Georgia

Postby 68barracuda » Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:49 pm

All the way from Atlanta, Georgia...

We have a small group of folks planning for the 2004 Burning man event. Only one of the 8+ folks planning on attending has actually attended a Burning man event so we've been gathering up as much information as possible from as many sources as possible. This site has been helpful, especially after I got past the bad attitudes and flame throwing.

We have a basic plan that I'd like to have the oldtimer's review. Constructive comments welcomed.

Shelter:
(6) 2V 16foot domes made from 3/4" Steel EMT Conduit using the www.desertdomes.com dome calculator. The conduit will be primed and painted with Rustoleum industrial coatings each dome framework will be painted a different color. Instead of covering the dome with a parachute or tarps I'm sewing up an internal dome that will be suspended inside the framework (no contact between fabric and metal) and attached to eyebolts at each of the 26 verticies with a cinch and aluminium carabiner. I'll also be stitching a heavy duty 24-30 oz vinyl as a bottom and ground cover. Since there will be 10 4 point verticies touching the ground I'll have 10 welded 17" stakes holding the frame and tent solidly to the ground. There will be a single door and two windows in each dome for cross ventilation. 5 domes will be used as sleeping quarters and one will be used as the bathroom/storage/shower area.

(3) 3V 24foot 3/8 domes constructed in the same manner as the 16' domes but with four windows for cross ventilation and 15 stakes for the 15 verticies. One dome will be used for food prep, cooking, storage, and dining. Another dome will be used as the party pad with a bar, smoking lounge, inflatable chairs, couches, folding furniture, and small inflatable pool. The last will be private quarters for couples to test some homemade "equipment"...

(1) Shade fly 12' by 24' to cover an art car, bicycles, and a hammock stand or two.

Water:
Drinking and cooking: 2 gallons per person per day.
Personal Hygene: 2 1/2 gallons per person per day.
Overkill but its better to have too much than not enough... Excess can be traded or used in super soakers to hose down deserving passers-bys.

Water delivery:
12' foot double 55gal drums water tower. 12 feet will give enough head(pressure) to deliver to two low pressure showers and sinks. Drinking and cooking water will be brought in 5 gallon bottles and smaller portable containers.

Grey water disposal:
Evaporation ponds shielded from those pesky playa plastic pond slip-n-sliders mentioned by others. Yuk! who'd want to slide thru that junk?

Black water disposal: #1 and #2
I'll be using my own designed 13 gallon bucket toilets with liners and screw down tops. That will have to go with us when we depart and disposed of properly.

Cooling systems:
Still doing a bit of research on this subject and it seems a misting system is the most popular but I was thinking about evaporative cooling. That might be something to consider for later events.

Food storage:
A Fridge would be nice but I don't plan on bringing a power station with us. So, coolers will have to do for items that have to be kept cool. Although a little more thinking might bring about a power solution.. Most food will be dried or canned not requiring any refrigeration.

Cooking:
Two propane stovetops, a BBQ grill, and 2 20lb propane bottles should cove all the cooking requirements for 8+ people for 7-10 days. I'll probably pack an additional one just in case.

Lighting:
Candles, oil candles and oil lamps, and low wattage flourescent bulbs.

Electricity:
Two homemade 12v generator packages with 4 deep cycle batteries and Xantrex DC/AC inverter for each package. These will only have to be run an hour or two each day. This is better than running a 1250 watt generator 24 hours a day. Got to think about our fellow campers.

Well, thats pretty much about it for now. We already have most of this equipment between us so the only real expense is the shelter domes. I've found a local electrical supply house that will sell me 3/4" EMT for $20.35 per 100ft and a fabric wholesaler that will sell me 62" wide fabric for $0.50 per running yard. It is mixed lot of material so it goes with the multi-colored dome theme I wanted in the first place. Now as far as the 2600 miles to transport all this stuff and a couple of our sorry asses I'm trying to buy a bus from Montgomery, Alabama Transit authority and convert it to a long range cruiser coach. I will be trading some flooring work and a little cash for a 18' tandem axle enclosed trailer. We'll use it to transport our art car and building materials. If I don't get a bus we have two fullsized trucks with camper shells and another additional 5' by 10' trailer we can use.

The good thing is that I have a large enough back yard to set up a mock camp and debug before making a trial run to a local festival. These runs will help with timing and setup proceedures before running across the USA to Burningman 2004. I, for one, want to only have to take a day to set up camp in the potentially broiling temps of the desert.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?

welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

precipitate
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Postby precipitate » Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:11 pm

Damn, boy. You compulsive or what? (Um, that's mostly a good thing, until
it gets you in trouble.)

Thoughts, in order:

- You have nine domes. That will take all eight of you at least two days to
erect, if my observation of others is correct, and I could be talking out my
ass here. Please assemble and erect them at home and figure out how
long it takes you, then double it for heat factor and flakiness. Then decide
if it's worth it. I'd say have one large central dome, or two, and then
shade your tents using carport-type structures, or tarps, or something
easily erectable. I've used a cheapo 12'x15' tent as a kitchen for several
years, and it's just fine and goes up in ten minutes.

- Water. I've never brought more than 2 gallons per person per day for
cooking, drinking, and washing. Even when I showered daily, I didn't use
it all. Might wanna scale back a bit because water is heavy. 3
gal/person/day is generous and will allow for lavish cooking and washing
arrangements.

- Water transport. Remember that water weighs 8 lbs/gal so you're going
to be carrying 400 pounds per 55 gal drum. Make sure your vehicle can
handle that, and that the weight is distributed evenly and between the axles.

- Cooking. For a camp of 30 people with a centralized kitchen, one gas grill
with one 20 lb propane tank was fine. If you're not centralized, more
cooking surfaces (and more fuel, because there'll be a bit more waste)
would be good.

- Coolers vs. fridge. Freeze everything that can be frozen beforehand,
including some 1L water bottles to substitute for ice. Lean heavily to block
ice rather than cube. Investigate dry ice. Balance between pre-chilled
stuff that can be eaten immediately, and dried/canned that requires more
preparation.

- Lighting. Keep the flames out of the tents (duh).

- Power. A Honda 1Kw generator is really fucking quiet. But go for the 12V
if you can. I've had a number of inverters go belly-up on the playa for
various reasons, so maybe have a backup or someone more electronically
inclined than I. And I'm not sure how you'd have to run the 12V system
only a few hours a day, but the genny 24. What's your logic?

And remember, it's just a fucking, camping, trip.

Cariapata

Postby Cariapata » Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:50 pm

And in the beginning there was a plan....

This comes across at first read as well thought out. However you asked for critiques so here I go. I'm actually enjoying writing this as it's sparking my own ideas for 2004..hey this would be the unofficial start of my plans to head West for the 3rd time! Anyway here I go.

1: On the domes, 3 domes is alot of space. That part is nice. However 3 domes take up a lot of space in hauling them out there. Steel conduit is not exactly light either. Also how long is it going to take you to setup all this stuff and tear it back down? Would 2 intermediate domes or one larger one work better? As for the coverings, anything you build must be able to handle Category 1 Hurricane force winds. Sustained winds. Also a question Badger raised in an earlier thread comes to mind...what if it rains? Can your domes handle it?

2: Water. I like the 55 gallon drum idea for head pressure to run a shower. But imho and others may say differently, this seems to be a bit much. 4.5 gal x 8 people x 7 days = 252 gal. 252 gal x 8.345404 (water weight per US gal) = 2102 lbs. That's a lot of weight. Are you planning to haul that water from GA or buy it closer to the event say in Winnemucca or drive on to Reno and buy it there? If you hauled it from GA, you have to haul it up 8640 ft on I-80 and over several more passes. That's something to consider.

3: Black water is covered by hauling it all back out. Grey water...sounds good but be prepared to haul it out too. If we get rain, dust storms, etc you might not get rid of as much grey water as you expected. The playa wreaks havoc on the best laid plans. Expect anything with the weather.

4: I got by just fine with coolers for food, and the propane stovetops sound good. As for the BBQ grill, are you prepared to haul the cinders and charcoal back out? Think Leave No Trace and make sure your grill really does.

5: Lighting sounds good, but consider glow sticks and other sources too. One can almost never have too much lighting on the playa.

6: The power inverter approach sounds good but make sure and try it out before you get to the playa...I don't know your background so I'm unsure if you factored in phantom loads and other issues.

Overall I like the approach but the weight is going to be an issue. The grades coming out of the South from GA shouldn't be that bad. I sat here and run a GPS plot from Birmingham to Gerlach against Yahoo Maps and Mapquest they all show a route through KC and up to I-80 in Nebraska. Anyway from there it's a nice steady climb to the I-80 highpoint, then you have some interesting terrain. Elk Mountain is a bit of a climb with nasty crosswinds for high profile vehicles like the bus, the 3 Sisters can be hard to pull loaded down, and then you drop into SLC and on across the flats. You have 3 good passes in Nevada including Pequot Summit (6987 ft) and Silver Zone (5940 ft), and one I don't remember the name of. Something else to keep in mind...if you can't get the bus or have it ready and haul things in the smaller vehicles you lose 3% of your power for every 1000 ft of elevation you go. So that climb on I-80 has you losing approx 25% of your HP...are your vehicles ready for that? If one's in better shape or has a bigger engine you know which one to load the heaviest.

Again, I like your plan. I'd go back and see if you can pare it down though so you have less to haul and spend less time in setup / teardown and more time enjoying your friends and all the new ones you'll meet. Also as a dome alternative if the fabric covering becomes a pain, Cabelas.com has 8 person Alaskan Guide tents, 2 of them can be connected together. They are not cheap but for $600 and when you factor in weight, multi-use abilities and more they are worth a look.

If I over or undershot on this I'm sorry but I welcome feedback on my comments too. One last thing...don't even consider taking the Jungo Road shortcut with weight like that. You'll break things, guaranteed.

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III
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Postby III » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:04 am

it seems a little overboard for me, but i likie to keep things relatively simple.

the 2 gallons water recommendation includes hygene and doing dishes. you'll use maybe half of that for drinking and cooking, the rest is for other stuff. don't expect to be able to really give it away afterwards. a little bit too much is okay, but 3 times what you need could be better spent (space and weightwise, at least) on other stuff.

setting up a sink may be over kill. using a flat tub and hand pouring water is generally very effective.

emt is zinc coated, so it shouldn't need to be additionally rust proofed.

not sure why you need that many domes. tents tend to be easier to use for sleeping purposes, and easier to waterproof. not sure why you need to keep the cloth from touching the metal. carabiners also seem to be ovekill, since you're not going to be attaching and releasing the releases frequently. using rope with a couple of decent knots should be able to give you the same tension as the more comlicated hardware.

black water: the porta potties work fine.

bring extras of stuff you can't do without. that includes struts for your domes, and connnecting bolts.

having mostly dry/unrefrigerated food is a good idea. you'll probably eat way less than you expected, so plan on being able to scale your meals based on how previous ones went. have lots of snack foods available, since people seem to want to eat lots of little things rather than a few big meals. make sure to bring salty items, and or gatorade. dehydration sucks. electrolyte depletion sucks worse, because it's much tougher to figure out why its happening.

---------

there's nothing wrong with what you're trying to do, per se. it just seems like an *awful* lot of work. it's more than even most themecamps usually do, and they're planning on entertaining thousands of people, not just taking care of themselves. it's hard work working out there. it's going to be additionally frustrating for both you and your campmates to have to set all that stuff up while there's a big brand new exciting city to explore out there. it's going to be even more frustrating for you when they take off to explore that city, and leave you to set up all that stuff by yourself. a really good plan for a first year is to minimize effort, rather than maximize comfort.

staging things in your backyard, btw, is a really good idea. just be prepared to have everything look a lot smaller once you get to the playa.

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68barracuda
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Postby 68barracuda » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:35 am

precipitate,

Thanks for the response, and yes, I'm a little compulsive.. :lol: Is that bad? But seriously, because We'll be setting up the domes in my back yard we will have a chance to tear them down and put them up several times before taking them to a tribes meeting in July. As for assembly I'm figuring 3-4 people should be able to set up a single dome frame in less than an hour with the fabric tent structure taking about 10 minutes to snap into place. Adjustments will take a few minutes and driving the stakes with 2 pound and 5 pound sledges to secure everything against the Playa winds.

Water has been an interesting subject all around. 8 people, 5 gallons a day, 6 days= 240 gallons. 1 gallon per day, per person of that will be in the form of the 5 gallon bottles you normally see in offices. That will be 9 of those bottles that we will transport with us. Walmart has the 20oz bottles in cases of 24 bottles that we will buy in Rock Springs WY, Reno NV, or somewhere between. Also, we will be filling two framed water bed matresses prior to arriving. Each will hold 160 gallons(1200lbs) as tested. We plan on arriving 2-3 days prior to the vehicle lockdown so making one or two runs for water shouldn't be a problem.

Propane will be used on the way, at BM, and the return trip so we'll likely need all three bottles.

Oil lamps when properly used can be safe. I've used them in smaller structures than this along with candles in shielded holders.

The 12v generators I've built before are really quiet when I welded a flange and bolted a cheap assed Autozone muffler to the 5hp Briggs motors. It takes about an hour to recharge two fully discharged 200Ah deep cycle batteries with a GM 62Amp altenator turning at 2600 to 2800rpms. Flourescent bulbs put out lots of light will little energy consumption. I've got a lot of experience with electricity working for the telephone company and my personal experience from experiments. And yes, I'm thinking about a fridge on the Playa...

Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?



welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

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Postby 68barracuda » Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:27 am

III,

I've done extensive tests and research on the various fabrics I'll be using along with water proofing. I am going with the carabiners for speed of assembly and simplicity. Sinks and raised platform showers are easy to plumb. My background is tactical response dispersement and long term survival systems. EMT will rust once you break the galvanized coating when you deform the ends and drill thru. I liked the idea of painting the dome frames anyway. Its a personal touch.. :wink: There are 2600 miles between here and our destination and we will be using KOA camp sites instead of hotels. It will only be three or four of us traveling via the "Bus" the rest will fly into Reno and rent cars. And from conversations it looks like we have one more couple that will fly out so now we have a possible 10 folks heading out.

Ah, the magic of compartmentalizing... :lol: Utilizing several items from www.cheaperthandirt.com like 50cal. ammo cans, mechanic bags, and east German surplus bags everything packs down to compact and well marked packages. The punishments we endure for a military background...

Fabric+Wind+Metal= Tears and punctured fabric. I'm actually designing these for Cat 2 100mph sustained winds. BM is just one big assed experiment for me. What will bring me the most happiness is experiments that work out great. And cruising around in our beetle art car.. Unlike the some of the knuckle-butts, that show up every year, trying to get laid is not a priority. The bar/lounge/smoking dome is for a couple of fellows in the group to run how they want and they are responsible for running it, period. I don't drink or do drugs and I did not want this going on in a communal area. We have a bi couple that are in total agreement coming along so I'll be in good company.

The grill I have is propane not charcoal even though I think food cooked over real charcoal tastes so much better anyway.

I made the trip to Pinedale Wyoming already this year and I have a 2001 Dodge truck that I keep maintained. I'll be making the same trip in late March '04 again. I got a couple of job offers last year and with the telecommunications industry being so shitty here I'm considering the move. I hate working for DFI's that think they hold your nads in their hands 24/7. Why I've stayed as long as I have is truely a mystery... :twisted:

Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?



welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

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Postby III » Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:24 am

i really can't find anything technically wrong with what you're trying to do (aside from bringing *way* more water than you need - for comparison i usually end up using 5 gallons in 10 days, plus a couple gallons of gatorade and light beer).

the big issue is social - you're obviously very driven and motivated. are you sure it's reasonable to expect your campmates to match that? if you're going to be working with a trained military squad, you can probably trust your estimates. if not, i'd double your time estimate once for people working in a work unfriendly environment, once for having half as many people as you expect to work on it, once for a group that's not used to working tightly together in an organized and managed fashion, and once just on general principal. that's a factor of 16 more time than you expected. (you wouldn't be the first person trying to finish up your projects while everyone else is packing up to go home).

btw, since you don't know me from adam, or how i might have developed these opinions, my background on big burning man projects comes from having spent a couple of months out there for several years managing crews for the dpw (the people who build the infrastructure for the city) as well as having managed a village of 500 people, along with having done a fair amount of trying to learn from other projects so that i don't repeat their mistakes.

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Postby drowned_saved » Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:13 am

III wrote:the big issue is social - you're obviously very driven and motivated. are you sure it's reasonable to expect your campmates to match that?

yep. this is my concern also. how will you respond when campmates go running off to frolic and fantasize while you're left to do the dirty work?

i've met people who revel in exactly this kind of situation, but i know others, too, who have ended up bitterly disappointed and full of resentment.

while working over your list of gear, don't forget to take a mental inventory.

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68barracuda
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Postby 68barracuda » Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:41 pm

III and drowned_saved,

I accepted the responsibility of designing these structures, developing water systems, and gathering of materials to construct such an elaborate setup. I'll also be doing 50-60% of the physical construction because I know my crew pretty well and the fact some are not able to assist because they are in different locations like Colorado, Wyoming, and the North East. What I have here is a hardcore group of 4 ex-military, and or very disiplined, individuals that I know I can count on. One of our group will not be making the trip but will likely be able to make it with his family in following years. Despite the elaborate planning Burning man will not be the only event we will be using this gear for. It will be used for tribe gatherings, festivals, group camping, and the like. I'm pretty much sick of overpriced POS tents that last maybe two years and I've got to replace some gear that got stolen last year anyway. On a personal note, I'm sick of camping consisting of cramped quarters, cold ground, cold food, and uncomfortable surroundings so I'm going to be comfortable.. Damn it.. :shock:

I also took on the responsibility because I obviously love a challenge(OCD) and it frees up others to develop something personal to add to our experience. Maybe add a bit of a "theme" to the camp. Another advantage of developing such a working system is the next event gets focused on without the distraction of working on shelter and infrastructure. Besides if any of my campmates decide they're going to run off before things get setup they will be in a world of hurt :twisted: that they don't want to be in. Uh.. there won't be a problem.

Each member that flies into Reno and rents a car to drive to BM will be responsible for bringing in their own food, clothes, toiletries, drinking water, and personal items. Not everybody has 10 days of vacation they can use together but they are expected to assist with the setup and manafacturing prior to the event. If not they will not be welcome and will have to provide for themselves. My experience is that with this firm approach those that will not pull their own weight won't even try to get involved.

Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?



welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

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Note to self:...

Postby Last Real Burner » Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:15 pm

Black Rock City Rocket Scientist Certification for Mike (68barracuda)Image

certifiably,
mr smith
"Do you know what happened to the boy who got everything he wished for? - He lived happily ever after".

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Postby III » Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:45 pm

on the water issue, there's a good thread here that documents what people expected to use, and what they actually ended up using.

i know of one camp that manages to run well with a fairly strict management (and even they have a "first timers have no responsibilities" rule). all the others that operate on the "or else there will be a world of hurt" method generally end up, well, in a world of hurt. however, you know your friends, and we don't, so if you think they're okay with that then rock on.

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Postby 68barracuda » Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:55 pm

Cool! Thanks LRB.. I really thought that I'd have a hard time being accepted but I now realize its not what you bring to the Playa table but how you present it. Most of the time people take me wrong because I am so intense in so many respects and its hard to accept. But I feel welcome here and thats nice.

Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?



welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

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Postby drowned_saved » Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:18 pm

sounds like you will have a great structure, and i sincerely hope you will have a great time, too. if these folks are as deciated as you describe them--if they function on your wavelength as you claim--then you have nothing to worry about.

all the same, i can recommend some deep breathing exercises if/when one or more of your campmates goes batshit a la colonel kurtz and (as martin sheen put it so famously) "[leaves] the whole fucking program."

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Postby precipitate » Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:19 pm

> Oil lamps when properly used can be safe.

Of course they can. Again, this is a social issue. In a big dome, away from
the walls, it's probably fine. Factor in dehydration, fatigue, sensory
overload and alcohol/drugs, and oil lamps or candles become a lot more
interesting. Not all your campmates, and perhaps not even you, will be as
trustworthy or diligent as they are in the real world. And in personal
tents, no flames.

Honestly I think your biggest problem is going to be the sheer amount of
work you're putting in. This is officially an eight day festival. You arrive
Monday, you depart Monday. Please believe me when I suggest to you
that you want to spend *only* the first day setting up and *only* the last
day breaking down, and that work is at least twice as difficult as you think
it will be, especially if you're not acclimated. The biggest risk, in my
opinion, is that you'll end up doing all the work and not get to experience
much of anything. Sometimes this is worth it, as when you're building a
big theme camp and the city comes to you, as it were. If you're just
building stuff for you that's less likely to happen.

Since this is your first year, you can't know exactly what the conditions are
like. You may have a pretty good idea, but the reality is always just a bit
off from what you expected. My recommendation is that you do minimum
work for maximum result, and spend the bulk of your time enjoying your
fellow citizens and the work they've done while gathering ideas and data
for next year. Your ideas are sound and they're good. They're also
something I personally wouldn't undertake with fewer than 20 dedicated
people.

And, for credentials, I've attended every Burning Man since 1998.
1999-2002 I was a primary coordinator for a smallish theme camp with
15-30 people. During those years, I was responsible for shade, power,
transportation and the community kitchen. 2003 I just showed up, largely
because of the sheer amount of work I'd done the previous four years.

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Postby Last Real Burner » Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:25 pm

Image We will share a beer on the playa in 2004 my friend.

technically,
mr smith
"Do you know what happened to the boy who got everything he wished for? - He lived happily ever after".

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Postby 68barracuda » Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:40 pm

Precipitate,

I don't do drugs and am very guarded no matter where I am at. I already drink 2 liters plus of cold and refreshing water every day anyway, so hydration shouldn't be an issue. I can and do operate in much higher stress situations than most people are used to. I have no illusions of the weather and conditions you folks face on the Playa so I am preparing for that. The three fellows that will be making the ardious journey from Auburn, Georgia with me are fellows of good character and solid work ethic so they know what is expected of them.

The work to put up a camp like this in possibly 100 degrees temps will take more than one day to put together but only because as the folks come in they have responsibilities to help assemble parts of the camp and break it down before they depart. We plan on leaving Georgia the Tuesday night 6 days before the event begins so I fully intend us to make it to the Gates of the event Friday morning or possibly earlier. It all depends on if we run into any problems along the way. As for coming back we have three days after Monday to get back.

As for visiting with other fellow playa happy campers I'm not much of a social player so I'm not concerned with just hangin' until the work is done. It will be difficult enough for me to get out of my comfortable social surroundings I will stay busy with projects and sharing knowledge with new people that want to know. This the part that will make my trip to BM worth it.

LRB,

Yes, we'll share a homemade beer or two along with some home grown smoke and maybe some good ol' home cooking on the playa. I look forward to it.

Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?



welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

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Postby III » Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:42 pm

>I fully intend us to make it to the Gates of the event Friday morning or possibly earlier.

you realize that the event doesn't start until monday though, and the only people allowed in early are those doing registered theme camps (which are registered because there are fairly heavy duty requirements for providing an interactive artistic experience to all the other citizens of black rock).

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Postby precipitate » Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:55 pm

> fellows of good character and solid work ethic so they know what is expected of them.

You going to Burning Man or running a gulag?

All I'm saying is that I think you're making more work than is necessary
to enjoy the event. As another participant, I'd rather see your energy
going to something that will benefit a larger portion of the community than
just your friends, but that's just me. Divert your creative energies into
something bigger than just you would be my advice.

You should, however, feel free to ignore that advice.

> I fully intend us to make it to the Gates of the event Friday morning or
> possibly earlier.

In which case, as trey noted, you will be turning back and finding a hotel in
Reno until Monday. Only theme camps are allowed on the playa before
the event starts, and as elaborate as your camp is, it ain't a theme camp.

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About that beer...

Postby Last Real Burner » Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:01 pm

I have yet to brew my own private stock of beer, however it is on my list of things to do. "Playa Pale Ale"tm is the elusive brew I will be stalking at the burn. You'll be pleasently suprised at how little you will be eating out there. There must be some enzyme or some out there that just plain makes you not crave food and there is just so many exciting things going on 24 hrs that eating seldom pops up on the radar, and when it does it is totally utlitarian and effecient so I can hurry back out in to the frey. you'll see.

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with cash advance."
continually,
mr smith
"Do you know what happened to the boy who got everything he wished for? - He lived happily ever after".

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68barracuda
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Postby 68barracuda » Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:29 pm

Well, I didn't know about the non-theme camps only being allowed on Monday.. Didn't catch that while reading the loads of data I've been reading. I guess the other folks are going to have to come up with a theme of some kind or We'll end up scaling way back.


Thanks for the info...

Precipitate,

Thats not a bad idea for a theme camp.. I am the Uber Komandier of this Stalague. But seriously I've left the "Theme" up to others to worry about. I'm doing what I do best with the structure design, fabrication, transportation, and vitial basic necessities, others are responsible for the "hook" for the camp. There are only 8 months and 14 days for them to come up with the theme.


Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?



welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

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68barracuda
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Postby 68barracuda » Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:01 pm

As another participant, I'd rather see your energy
going to something that will benefit a larger portion of the community than
just your friends, but that's just me. Divert your creative energies into
something bigger than just you would be my advice.


Precipitate,

Ok, I'd like to make a theme camp out of this but I'm real interested in hearing your suggestions for an interactive camp that won't cost much money. But the catch is it has to be interesting, different, somewhat risque, and did I mention inexpensive? Because of the limited personel it can't be open 24/7. Nobody is going to want to hang around camp all day and night without getting out and seeing the sights. I'm kind of partial to adding a little to another camp but I'd still like to consider going at it ourselves.

Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?



welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

precipitate
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Postby precipitate » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:10 pm

> I'm real interested in hearing your suggestions for an interactive camp
> that won't cost much money.

Geez, isn't everyone? That's half the fun: getting some wild hair up your
ass, then making it a reality without going broke.

The theme camps I was involved with were generally bar-oriented. Peep
show (perform to get a drink), dare bar, that kind of stuff. You can do a
decent bar for a couple hundred bucks, if you're only open at certain
times. But bars are a dime a dozen out there, so I'm not necessarily
recommending you do that. This year my campmates spent a lot of time
fixing other people's broken shit, and while I didn't participate, it was
fulfilling for them.

Interactivity means you're doing something interesting, not something
expensive. Porch Camp (part of Nuclear Family) this year had Vision
Quest Roulette. You'd spin some wheels, get a quest and a location, and
set off to fulfill the quest at the location. From what I hear, it was
incredibly fun. That kind of thing is a blast, and total cost was probably
under $10.

So, I can't tell you what you should do (but hey, start a thread in the
Theme Camp area and solicit suggestions; at the very least it'll be
amusing), but I can say that I wholeheartedly recommend that your first
year you either join an established theme camp (with people who've been
at least one year), or you just show up and have the experience. If this
were your second year and you were proposing X domes for X-1
participants, I might call you crazy, but I wouldn't tell you not to do it. And
I'm not exactly telling you not to do it now, I'm just cautioning you not to
spend all your time working.

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Postby drowned_saved » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:12 pm

68barracuda wrote:Nobody is going to want to hang around camp all day and night without getting out and seeing the sights.

especially with you barking orders at them.

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Postby Chai Guy » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:25 pm

especially with you barking orders at them.


Hahahaa!

Seriously though, my favorite theme camps have all been done for almost no money. Here re my top 3

1. Get Shocked for a cookie camp - You agree to be shocked by a cattle prod and receive a cookie. Expenses- Cookie, cattle prod, sign, card table, chairs.

2. Naked Human Sushi- You are rolled up in what appears to be a giant sushi hand roll (naked of course) after you are wrapped up in "seaweed" (actually a blanket) you are hit over the head with a green pillow that looks just like a big ball of wasabi and Saki is poured down your throat. Expenses: Large bamboo looking mat, "seaweed" blanket, wasabi pillow, Saki

3. Space Bag Camp- Barkers implore you to try the mysterious "space bag" you succumb, it tastes quite good, you inquire what it is, it's Box wine that has been taken out of the box. Expenses: Elaborate "Space Bag" sign, box wine.

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Postby 68barracuda » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:32 pm

Precipitate,

I started a thread on the afore mentioned Theme Camp forum under Grudge Match Camp and then I visited Thunderdome's site and uh.. I can't even attempt what they do over there. One of the other members is hip to the bar idea and since he's the one that has attended BM before he knows better than I. Like I said before I'm not a drinker I was leaving that up to him and another fellow to develop, if they wanted to. But both of them have thought about it and now the're not so interested and we are brainstorming to come up with an alternative. I'm pretty sure that once we can come up with something and agree to work on it together it will come out pretty good. But for now I'm heading downstairs to the truck and unloading 550 feet of 3/4" EMT into the garage before heading back into work to do a re-home till who knows what time in the morning. I guess I'm sticking with what I know best.. construction and planning.. And Barking orders :wink:

Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?



welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

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My 2 Cents

Postby Patamon » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:56 pm

I've been running a Theme camp for 3 years now (Camp Bayou), and have seen it grow from 21 to 38 people in that time.

Here's my quickie evaluation of your plans.

First... Its GREAT that you're planning, the more you prepare, the better time you will have on the Playa.

However, this being your first Burn in '04 you have to be carefull not to take too much on, otherwise, you'll find yourself doing Tons of work in your camp (setup, breakdown, maintaining) without ever having the time to enjoy Burning Man.

Keep it simple, and make sure you have 2-3 "McGyver" Types. If you go up with a bunch of lazy asses you may never do this again.

Other Notes...

Water.. You're bringing WAY to much water. Unless you have some sorta plans for a pool or something, you will not use that much water.

Overplanning.. Its possible to think about this stuff too much. After 4 Burn's I find that every year I still Over-pack, and over-analyze, and bring stuff up that I never bother to even open when I get up there.

Playatime is a funny thing. Its not like real time. After 24 hours on the Playa you'll find your energy levels, your emotional levels, and your physical levels of exhaustion dictating your days and evenings.

If there was one thing I would recommend for first timers more than anything else... Try to build up your physical stamina in the months before Burning Man. If you're out of shape and don't take care of yourself, you may find yourself missing a lot just because you're trying to catchup on sleep and are exhausted all the time.

Again, keep it simple, especially for your first year.

- Patamon

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Postby Chai Guy » Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:02 pm

f you're out of shape and don't take care of yourself, you may find yourself missing a lot just because you're trying to catchup on sleep and are exhausted all the time.


This could also be the result of not drinking enough water. Bring a lot of water, more than you think you will need. It's cheap and if you have extra at the end of the week. It's easy to get rid of.

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Postby 68barracuda » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:14 pm

Thanks for the support and suggestions Chai Guy and Patamon. Water.. the never ending question. I'm bringing a lot of water if I have neigbors that need water I will have extra water. If nobody needs it then who does it hurt? Nobody. Misting systems, coffee, drinking, showers, pool or hot tub, cooking dried goods, dish washing, and general usage for 4 people 12 days and 4-6 or more people for 7 days during the event is going to be a lot of water no matter what. 100 gallons of bottled drinking/cooking water and 200 gallons of wash/bathing water should be enough. And thats including the people flying in to Reno and driving out with supplies. Thats roughly 3.25 gallons per day per person. Yes, its 150% of the suggested amount but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I live for the planning and even though BM 04 is over 8 months away its just something to occupy my mind and keep me busy over the winter months. Will I enjoy BM? I think I will even if I stay busy working the camp and checking experiments. Like I've said before I am not the social animal, unlike my camp mates, so even going to BM is taking me out of my shell.

The suggestion of getting in shape is a good one no matter what. The heat and hard work will drain the energy of a person out of shape faster than a person in good shape. Admittedly I am not in the best condition but that is changing.

Mike
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welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

precipitate
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Postby precipitate » Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:40 pm

> Yes, its 150% of the suggested amount but I'd rather be safe than
> sorry.

As is your prerogative. However, the reason the Survival Guide says 2
gallons per person per day is that, for the last what, thirteen years, that
is what experience says is about right.

In '98, '99, and '00 we brought 2 gal/person/day. We always went home
with extra. In '01, we reduced it to 1.5 gal/person/day and by Wednesday
we were afraid we'd run out on Friday because it was a hot year and we
were using a lot more than in previous years for drinking and keeping
cool. Our latecomers brought in enough to bring it back to 2 gal, and we
took home the extra. In '02 and '03 I went back to 2 gal, and brought
home some extra, but not a whole lot, because those were both warm
years also.

I disagree with Chai Guy that it's easy to get rid of. You can't just dump
your water at the DPW dropoff spot any more. You must take it home
with you, just like trash. And water weighs almost 8.5lbs/gal, so you're
looking at eight hundred plus pounds of extra water on the way home. If
nothing else, slightly reducing your excess water load will improve your
gas mileage. If you must bring more than the recommended allowance,
why not make it 2.5 gal/person/day? 25% overage seems completely
reasonable to me.

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Postby 68barracuda » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:05 pm

Precipitate,

You points are very valid and I've taken them to heart. But as LRB and Chai Guy have both said bring more than you think you'll need and I think we'll need 3.25 gallons per day. As for mileage the bus I'm buying in January gets 7.8-8.5mpg loaded or not so an extra 1000lbs for a few hundred miles is not going to hurt. As much as I've read, on this forum and other off shoot discussions, about people running out of water and getting some from neighbors, or having to really limit their useage for the remaining event, I will not be running short. I read the entire topic "How much water, Really?" in Food and Drink and a resounding theme was bring more than you think you'll need. A shower a day, misting systems, mixing drinks, a small pool or jacuzzi, cooking dried goods, washing dishes and cooking utinsles, will take a good bit of water and I want to have enough.

Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?



welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...


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