ABC News investigated Playa Lung?

dewnorth · Post by **dewnorth** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:29 am

Boy, am I going to get flamed now! Take what you like and leave the rest. (.......deep breath.........) Here goes:

If this info is legitimate, "health experts" studied 5000 burners for lung problems from playa dust.

The conclusions about playa dust?

1.) Bandanas & "basic face masks" (cheap paper dust masks with elastic straps?) don't do squat.
2.) Playa dust lung problems for long-time attendees are on the rise.
3.) The health problems go away over time.

I tried unsuccessfully to find the original story on the ABC News site itself. Dr. David Prezant, cited in the post, is quoted a zillion times on the Internet, especially about Ground Zero workers' lung damage. So far, I've found no substantiation for the story below. I'll try writing him to find out more about the study and see what I get back

http://www.brproductions.net/forums/lof ... 11760.html
posted by: chihuahua killer on Sep 4 2008, 08:23 AM

When the Dust Settles
Studies Show "Playa Dust" Can Be Deadly
By LARA SALAHI
ABC News Medical Unit
Sept. 3, 2008

The dust and debris that billowed into the air during this years Burning Man might posess detrimental health effects.

Health experts discussed the effects of air quality at Burning Man.

"Long time attendees, it appears, develop long-term respiratory problems from the particles of pulverized 'Playa dust' they inhaled over an extended time", according to Dr. David Prezant.

"This isn't just 'Oh, I have a cough,'" said Prezant. Prezant said the study of approximately 5,000 past attendees is looking at "who was ill and who continues to be ill."

The researchers said the biggest area of concern was the effects of inhaling or ingesting the particulate matter as opposed to having it touch the skin.

According to the researchers, attendees only have basic face masks and hankerchiefs, which doesn't keep out most of the dust particles.

Prezant said there has been a dramatic increase in Burning Man party-goers receiving respiratory treatments after the dust has settled.

Prezant said it's too early to tell whether the bad air quality and respiratory problems might lead to increased instances of malignancies or growths.

The experts said one of the problems with measuring the air quality on the Playa is that most of the testing mechanisms are designed to test air quality over a long period of time.

#

(I don't claim copyright. So Big Brother, don't throw my ass in jail. I posted the story below because so many things on the Net disappear before long.)

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:34 am

Don't expect a responce to this thread.. We are all dead from playa lung

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:36 am

I'll have mine with a side of Bacon and Eggs, please.............

Token · Post by **Token** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:02 am

Live and let die.

I think you should stay home this year as the reference subject.

dewnorth · Post by **dewnorth** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:24 am

bm_cricket · Post by **bm_cricket** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:32 pm

The real question is about particle size. Personally, I'm not an air quality expert.. or an expert on much of anything.. but I'm more excited about the geo-chemistry of the playa. Not for any health reason or environmental reason... Just because I think it's cool..

But here's why my plan for research died. Simply put there was no money to do the kinds of research in this kind of environment for this short of an event in a way that would give us real, quantitative results. My department lacks any equipment to do it and, even if we had it, they don't really want to fund research on Burning Man.

The big question is about particle size and how much of that sized dust gets air-born. Nobody really knows what sized particles are worst for you either. The EPA says that there is a range of fine particles that they really care about but some studies say that the worst ones are smaller or bigger than that range of sizes. What ever the case the playa does have those particles. It's a matter of how many of them. And it's about wind velocity and about the shape of the playa and any structures on it. It's about how much we humans are kicking up in the air. All those questions need really expensive equipment. I wish I could give the community an answer. Find me $100,000 and I'll find you the answers!

Now... Bigger fish. Does it matter? Well, personally, I think that as long as you keep it out of your lungs it doesn't matter how bad for you it is. So keep it out of your lungs. I just use a nice, thick, wet bandanna. The bandanna gets disgusting every few hours but I don't develop any sort of cough which tells me it's doing something right. All that playa soup that ends up on the bandanna isn't ending up in my lungs.

Post by **mdmf007** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:28 pm

lol -

If playa dust is so deadly, Winnemucca, Gerlach, Fernley, and all points down range would have higher rates of asthma. I dont see a lot of the kids draggin O2 bottles behind them.

People have lived in this desert for centuries...thats all the evidence I need.

bm_cricket · Post by **bm_cricket** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:52 pm

Nobody lives on the playa. It's hot and completely dry 11 months out of the year. I doubt anyone in near by towns ever have to deal with it enough to cause any trouble. Then again, one week out of the year actually "living" on it like we do and I bet we aren't going to die either. DPW? Maybe they are putting their necks on the line even more than people give them credit for..1-2 months on the playa? I'm sure that has a lingering effect...

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:43 pm

bm_cricket wrote:Nobody lives on the playa. It's hot and completely dry 11 months out of the year. I doubt anyone in near by towns ever have to deal with it enough to cause any trouble. Then again, one week out of the year actually "living" on it like we do and I bet we aren't going to die either. DPW? Maybe they are putting their necks on the line even more than people give them credit for..1-2 months on the playa? I'm sure that has a lingering effect...

You think all that blowing lake bed stays there?? I'll bet it could be found in air samples in Reno.. And all the camel herders have been zombies for the last 10.000 years..

bm_cricket · Post by **bm_cricket** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:49 pm

unjonharley wrote:
bm_cricket wrote:Nobody lives on the playa. It's hot and completely dry 11 months out of the year. I doubt anyone in near by towns ever have to deal with it enough to cause any trouble. Then again, one week out of the year actually "living" on it like we do and I bet we aren't going to die either. DPW? Maybe they are putting their necks on the line even more than people give them credit for..1-2 months on the playa? I'm sure that has a lingering effect...

You think all that blowing lake bed stays there?? I'll bet it could be found in air samples in Reno.. And all the camel herders have been zombies for the last 10.000 years..

I'm not saying that it stays there but "samples in Reno" are going to be small. And most importantly, what are the sizes of the samples in Reno? And the chemical composition? Simply breathing dust isn't bad for you depending on the particle size and what it's made of. And naturally how much of it you have. Nobody really knows how bad anything is for us but "best guesses" say that some things are worse than others. Sounds intuitive? Yeah. It is.

Token · Post by **Token** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:55 pm

OMFG, your such a Pansy! Safety THIRD!!!

Go on now and grow some fuzz on them peaches!

motskyroonmatick · Post by **motskyroonmatick** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:19 pm

I am way less worried about the effects of playa on my system than all the stuff I get exposed to out in defaultia. The way I look at it my body gets a break from all that stuff at the burn. The dust has never really bothered me at least to the point where I feel obvious symptoms.

Now the guy that I work with that was a concrete cutter for 25 years. He has a cough.

dewnorth · Post by **dewnorth** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:37 pm

Thanks bm_cricket for your input. It's interesting to have some background on the testing. Also nice to know how to make a bandana filter dust out better.

Regarding the information I posted, I'm not refuting or defending the information. It is what it is.

If the information is accurate and good science was practiced, it's for each individual to do with it what they choose. Information is power.

I haven't had problems on the playa with coughs, congestion, etc. I had a respirator, but didn't use it. Maybe I'll start using it now. (Insert violin music here) I've used respirators for 8 to 12 hours at a time at work, and they're a pain in the nose for me.

I work for a big company that makes a popular brand of paper masks. And basically, I don't know what they're good for except to keep sick people from sneezing and coughing germs directly onto someone. (Is that what surgical masks are used for too?) Because they don't seal tightly around the face, no paper mask really keeps things out of your lungs. The filter materials work just fine for their intended use, but the gaping holes near your face negate their effectiveness.

FaeTora · Post by **FaeTora** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:13 pm

Studies have found that living in a large city is equivalent to smoking a pack a day.

The Playa will be a vacation for my lungs then.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:21 pm

bm_cricket wrote:Nobody lives on the playa. It's hot and completely dry 11 months out of the year. I doubt anyone in near by towns ever have to deal with it enough to cause any trouble. Then again, one week out of the year actually "living" on it like we do and I bet we aren't going to die either. DPW? Maybe they are putting their necks on the line even more than people give them credit for..1-2 months on the playa? I'm sure that has a lingering effect...

you might want to check your facts there.......

Kinetik V · Post by **Kinetik V** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:41 pm

There's so many things out there that can hurt or kill ya that if one of 'em is going to take me out, it might as well be one that is kicked up while being in a place I love.

My N95 dust masks have worked just fine for me providing I keep some with me and use them. The one with the extra piece on it to make exhaling easier seems to work the best.

bm_cricket · Post by **bm_cricket** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:51 pm

ygmir wrote:
bm_cricket wrote:Nobody lives on the playa. It's hot and completely dry 11 months out of the year. I doubt anyone in near by towns ever have to deal with it enough to cause any trouble. Then again, one week out of the year actually "living" on it like we do and I bet we aren't going to die either. DPW? Maybe they are putting their necks on the line even more than people give them credit for..1-2 months on the playa? I'm sure that has a lingering effect...
you might want to check your facts there.......

Eh, take what I say with a grain of salt. Remember, I have not actually done all these studies on Black Rock that I wanted to.

But it is a playa and it's full of salts. Maybe you can fight me on the "completely" part but it's damn dry or it wouldn't be a playa. And if it's wet for longer periods of time then the dust will have less time blowing around the valley and into the neighboring towns. But that doesn't make it some lush oasis. When it's wet I doubt much of anything can drink water you find in it. Again, I've never studied it.

Kinetik V · Post by **Kinetik V** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:06 pm

This thread has some info / links that might be of interest to anyone in regards to playa composition.

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... ion#165106

Look for Table 2. I'm not a scientist so half of that is gobbledygook but I'd bet that will help answer your question.

Post by **mdmf007** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:42 pm

bm_cricket wrote:Nobody lives on the playa. It's hot and completely dry 11 months out of the year. I doubt anyone in near by towns ever have to deal with it enough to cause any trouble. Then again, one week out of the year actually "living" on it like we do and I bet we aren't going to die either. DPW? Maybe they are putting their necks on the line even more than people give them credit for..1-2 months on the playa? I'm sure that has a lingering effect...

I lived every summer in Winnemucca for a decade - dust storms are frequent off playa. Look at your google earth - there are plenty of ranches just on the other side of all the ridges to the playa,

Post by **mdmf007** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:46 pm

Dewnorth -

not sure if you know it or not, but this topic gets beaten to shit every year, pre and post event.

The dust at BM is the least of my concerns, clandestine firework shows, drunk art cars, visibility in dust storms - theres a possible killer.

use the search function and you can find a dozen threads.

later

bm_cricket · Post by **bm_cricket** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:55 pm

mdmf007 wrote:
bm_cricket wrote:Nobody lives on the playa. It's hot and completely dry 11 months out of the year. I doubt anyone in near by towns ever have to deal with it enough to cause any trouble. Then again, one week out of the year actually "living" on it like we do and I bet we aren't going to die either. DPW? Maybe they are putting their necks on the line even more than people give them credit for..1-2 months on the playa? I'm sure that has a lingering effect...
I lived every summer in Winnemucca for a decade - dust storms are frequent off playa. Look at your google earth - there are plenty of ranches just on the other side of all the ridges to the playa,

Good to know.

dewnorth · Post by **dewnorth** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:18 am

Thanks bm_cricket for your input. It's interesting to have some background on the testing. Also nice to know how to make a bandana filter dust out better.

Regarding the information I posted, I'm not refuting or defending the information. It is what it is.

If the information is accurate and good science was practiced, it's for each individual to do with it what they choose. Information is power.

I haven't had problems on the playa with coughs, congestion, etc. I had a respirator, but didn't use it. Maybe I'll start using it now. (Insert violin music here) I've used respirators for 8 to 12 hours at a time at work, and they're a pain in the nose for me.

I work for a big company that makes a popular brand of paper masks. And basically, I don't know what they're good for except to keep sick people from sneezing and coughing germs directly onto someone. (Is that what surgical masks are used for too?) Because they don't seal tightly around the face, no paper mask really keeps things out of your lungs. The filter materials work just fine for their intended use, but the gaping holes near your face negate their effectiveness.

Rusted Iron · Post by **Rusted Iron** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:37 am

I have had no problems with N-95 masks. I buy them in bulk for the playa and use them at work, in a hospital.

I figure that viruses are smaller than the small particles blowing around on the playa.

They cost more than the little paper masks, but last longer, seal tighter, and are more comfortable.

Hey, maybe I should buy stock in a company that makes them.

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:40 am

I can help you with that.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:15 am

Reading this thread gave me this strange feeling of deja vu.

The EPA is lowering the thresh hold for the PM standards. Of course, I don't hear about the playa bed being a non-attainment area with anywhere near the frequency that I hear about Phoenix, the Chino Valley, or Santa Barbara being the same.

And as the playa is surrounded by mountains, with no outlet for water, I rather suspect that the amount that leaves the basin and ends up in Reno to be small. (with a bunch of dreary caveats thrown in.)

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:53 am

Many people in that area work in the dry wall industry. Could they perhaps have some experience with this and maybe some facts?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:35 am

It's possible, UD, but for some reason eplaya polls low in the key sheet rock worker demographic.

bm_cricket · Post by **bm_cricket** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:02 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:It's possible, UD, but for some reason eplaya polls low in the key sheet rock worker demographic.

White, middle class, westerner? Hmmm....

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:53 pm

I've emailed the author of the article to see if she has a pointer to the original.

dewnorth · Post by **dewnorth** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:35 pm

Thank you, Sputnik!

I've written both Lara Salahi and Dr. David Prezant. I don't know if either of them will have time to reply. But I'm hoping.

I've spent quite a few hours now trying to search the Internet for any research on the health effects of playa dust. The study mentioned in the story attributed to ABC News is the only story that comes up, and the only place it comes up is in the post by "chihuahua killer." Other than that post, the study is nowhere to be found.

In my haste, I made a HUGE, IRRESPONSIBLE mistake. My post at the beginning of this thread has 3 of my own "conclusions" from the study. I was writing and editing all over the place, and didn't finish fixing point number 3. I meant to say something else, but I didn't catch the error until it was too late.

What I said is just plain wrong: THE STORY DOES NOT SAY PLAYA DUST'S EFFECTS GO AWAY WITH TIME!

Too much time has passed for ePlaya's server to let me fix or delete it. What to do??????????

ABC News investigated Playa Lung?

ABC News investigated Playa Lung?

N-95

Thanks Sputnik!