Afternoon napping for babies?

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MayaP
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Afternoon napping for babies?

Post by MayaP » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:42 pm

We are bringing our 11-month-old daughter to the playa this year and I'm trying to devise the best napping-station for daytime. Our frinds brought out their 11-month-old girl 2 years ago and she had a great time. But they brought an RV. I'm hoping to avoid that, but I want to be prepared for my daughter's shade and cleanliness needs.

Anyone have any experience with infants on the playa? What did you do for daytime naps? Anyone have a stellar shade structure design? Do babies hate the dust, or do they just adapt?

thanks!

Mama Maya

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Captain Goddammit
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Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:54 pm

At gramma's house would be good.
I have some campmates with a young baby. They made arrangements with gramma this year... last year that wasn't an option, so they DIDN'T GO TO BM. But then, they are good parents.
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Post by angrykittie25 » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:20 pm

But then, they are good parents.
I think that was quite out of line. Who says that taking a baby to burning man makes someone a bad parent. If they make proper arrangements and find out things ahead of time, which it seems to be what they are doing. Now if they just took their baby to BM and said, "well just have to see how she does and improvise on how to take care of her out here." Then they may have questionable parenting skills. But I see no reason why a baby cannot grow up going to burning man and being exposed to so much diversity, as long as you take care of your child.

Captain Goddammit, why do you have such issues with parenting? And are quick to jump on someone when they mention their child? Finding a babysitter is not always possible, as we have disscussed before, but just because they decide to include their baby in their trip to burning man, in no way makes them bad parents.

Sorry, but this just pushed my buttons.

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Captain Goddammit
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Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:32 pm

angrykittie25 wrote:
Captain Goddammit, why do you have such issues with parenting? And are quick to jump on someone when they mention their child? Finding a babysitter is not always possible, as we have disscussed before, but just because they decide to include their baby in their trip to burning man, in no way makes them bad parents.
I have issues with SOME parenting... wish more parents did. Like my campmates do. You didn't hear me jump on them, complimented them in fact. And YOU had a problem with that!
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Captain Goddammit
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Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:33 pm

angrykittie25 wrote:
But then, they are good parents.
I think that was quite out of line..
Really...
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angrykittie25
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Post by angrykittie25 » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:40 pm

Maybe I wasn't clear. I think you were out of line insinuating that they were good parents because they left their child with someone else, and that the person asking questions insuring the safety of their child at BM was not. Just because you want to bring your child to burning man DOES NOT make you a bad parent. Does that make it more clear?

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Captain Goddammit
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Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:49 pm

It makes SOMETHING clear...
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_tears_
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Post by _tears_ » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:47 am

Frankly I agree with Captain Goddammit on this one 100%
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Post by unjonharley » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:18 am

Putting you child in harms way makes for a "..BAD.." parent. I have 6 kids that were brought up camping. "..Never.." would I take then into playa conditions. Mine at maybe 14-15 but by then I did'nt have to baby sit.
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Alpha
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Post by Alpha » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:43 am

Bullshit. The original poster already cited one known case in which parents took their baby to BM and a good time was had by all. I personally know several others. Why don't you all get off your high horses and help the OP?

Here's my contribution: It can be very hot in the afternoon and very difficult to nap in a tent. Find a way to cool down the space for the baby (misters, for example).

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Tiara
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Post by Tiara » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:12 am

I'd suggest that the nap space should be in open air, under shade. It just gets too hot too fast inside a tent.

a hand held mister in front of an electric fan can be amazingly cooling in the shade.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:31 am

When we had the little guys, we live where it was very hot"112°. Could'nt affored AC. Just a swamp cooler that did'ntdo much. While afternoon nap and early evening too. We would put a damp (rong-out) hand towel over the kids. Works like a swamp cooler up close. Mine you one of us were with in sight of them at all time. Do not let the baby sleep face down. This will make it hotter for them. This is not a green flag from me. More than likely babys, adults and animals died on this same playa trieing to cross it in wagons.
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Bob
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Post by Bob » Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:24 am

Ninety nine percent of you people shouldn't go there either, IMO.
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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:20 am

Bob wrote:Ninety nine percent of you people shouldn't go there either, IMO.
//
You get an amen for that. In 2001 the ranges kept checking us at camp. Guess we looked pretty old to them. Thanks Ranges
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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:02 pm

I too would like to chime in on the issue of "bad parenting."

Whatever the merits or demerits of a particular parenting style or of bringing children to the playa, I am a little disturbed by how easily some people can instantly condemn someone else's choices from a distance. Mostly because there is a cultural epidemic of calling out "bad mother" as a stealth tactic keep women in "thier place." To the extent that Burning Man is trying to reinvent community and sociaty, I think we should be careful about falling into those easy thoughtless cultural traps. Especially as I think that a great many of the people who use these arguements would be happy to extend them to the event in general.

To be sure, I think anyone bringing their child to the playa should think it through carefully, not expect anyone else to provide childcare, and be prepared to leave before the burn if it turns out that that's nessesary. Beyond that, I think that the experience of Burning Man can give children a much better example of human possibilities than much of the default world and that parents who are willing to put in the amount of time and effort and money to share the playa with their children and their children with the playa should be encouraged and supported to the community's best extent. I don't ask that dissent be silenced (there is definately room for difference of opinion on this topic), but I truly wish that dissenters would refrain from language that skirts "hate speech" so closely.

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Re: Afternoon napping for babies?

Post by PurpleKoosh » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:09 pm

MayaP wrote:Anyone have any experience with infants on the playa? What did you do for daytime naps? Anyone have a stellar shade structure design? Do babies hate the dust, or do they just adapt?
It suddenly occurs to me that nobody has pointed you at Kidsville yet:

http://www.burningkids.org/index.html
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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:22 pm

No hate just a matter of fact Taking a baby into extrem weather conditions is stupid. Just because BM has had temperate weather the last few years dose not insure this as a norm. As a father of six and a life long extrem hiker/camper I think I can call stupid when I see it. The other day I told Grandfather some one was talking about taking horeses to the BM. Never seen the old man jump like that. He has been around hoeses for 80 some years. He rode the chuch wagon with his mother on cattle drives. All he said was"no". After awhile he said "I'll see about that"
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Post by Dork » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:34 pm

Whatever the merits or demerits of a particular parenting style or of bringing children to the playa, I am a little disturbed by how easily some people can instantly condemn someone else's choices from a distance.
And I'm disturbed when people are condemned for expressing opinions that are at odds with how they and their friends choose to do things. But that's just me.

Hearing about people bringing infants to the playa scares the hell out of me, but I don't have any kids myself so feel free to disregard my opinion.

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:39 pm

I agree with the Captain also. I think it is bad enough that children (6-12) are becoming more common. Ultimately it will make Burning Man into Desert Disneyland in order to protect them (or hasten it's demise).

It is possible to bring a baby or very young child to the Playa for a week without issues. It is also possible to bring a baby or child on a white water raft trip without issues. Or skydiving. But I think most people would agree that the risks of these later activities are too extreme for a baby. The Playa is not quite so extreme, but then not everyone has the same sensitivity to risks.

The point is, there are many additional risks at Burning Man that must be dealt with. IMHO, these risks are even greater for babies or very young children than they are for adults. Just because a parent can survive as an adult does not mean a baby can under the same circumstances. 15 minutes of elevated temps can be enough to cause permanent brain damage. It is hard enough to ensure ones camp mates (who presumably can speak) are hydrated, not to mention dust storms, skin dryness, sunshine, heat, cold, alkali soil, polluted smoke, loud noises, etc.

I can understand the desire, but I have to recommend that babies and very young children (1-5) be left at a responsible baby sitter if the parent chose to attend BurningMan.

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Post by ness » Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:37 pm

I would have to go with captain goddammit ...the playa is no place for a baby, hot dirty dusty its not good for anybodys lungs let a lone a babys

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Post by typewriter » Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:42 pm

Off the top of my head

Pros :
Baby gets to 'enjoy' the event

cons:
Baby hates the heat
Baby breathes playa dust
Baby gets no sleep
Mom and dad completely occupied
Mom and dad spend way more money
Mom and dad pack out dirty daipers
etc

Thinking in cost / benefit sense...
This seems to defeat the purpose. You'd really be tieing yourselves down IMO, for no real positives. What can the tyke possibly have to gain? an 11 month old would rather stay at a relatives house and pet the kitties.

I support your right to do it, and doing it will not make you bad parents. But please don't do it.
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Post by angrykittie25 » Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:07 pm

On the above post about pros and cons. Maybe these people like to include their child in everything that they do. Maybe it is a bonding experience for them.
I personally do not like having to get a baby sitter for my child, but I was going to go to burning while my daughter sat at her grandpa's house, but that is my decision. I don't think that she could handle the elements now that we live in a place with much cooler temperatures. The town that I used to live in got to 120 degrees on a regular basis in the summer and she survived just fine. We had a swamp cooler, but after a point that doesn't do any good either.
My original posts to captain goddammit was not because he feels that kids should not go to burning man, it was because he insinuated bad parenting with out asking questions about how they were going to make special arrangements for their baby to keep her safe, or how they were going to deal with the complications of bringing a young child to the event. It was just cut and dry, take your kids to burning man and you are a bad parent. If he would have worded his post differently and not have questioned parenting skills, then I probably would not have responded.

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Post by _tears_ » Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:18 pm

I wouldnt say it is " bad parenting" to bring children, i would jsut say its not a bright idea.


I do believe there should be an age restriction, the playa can be very hard on the body.

The person who started this post, have they gone before? I dont remember and I dont care too look. If it is there first time, I would STRONGLY suggest NOT bringing ANY children or ANY teenagers, its a crazy experiance and one that they cannot truely understand until they have gone already.

If they have gone, well its there call, although I wouldnt suggest it. My theme camp ( Lamp Lighters ) Is camped near Kidsville. It is a wonderful camp, but I was also able to see how hard they have to work with the kids. Its not like you can ask a big ol' theme camp to turn down there music, that would surely start some problems.

These are just things for them to take into consideration.
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Post by unjonharley » Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:25 pm

I would place the people that bring there baby in a class. The same class of pepole that leave the kids in a hot car. "Stupid" Makes for bad parents.
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Post by _tears_ » Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:31 pm

I agree to an extent.

It is horribly hot and I dont believe Burning man is a place for anyone under at least 12.

At that young age it is more about there bodies than the emotional things they may see.

It is just not wise. I would not bring my child until they were old enough to at least semi take care of themselves and if they were mentally ready.

Between the dust, the sun, less nap times, I saw FIRST HAND parents in frustration with fussy babes. There are 50,000+ people, I am one of those paranoid people, I wouldn't trust anyone either.

Taking children is a RISK and a HUGE responsibility, not matter HOW "prepared" you think you are. Are they using the potty yet? You are going to have to keep dirty diapers with you.. I just dont think its WISE to bring children.

As for "Bad parenting " Well I really cant say because I dont now how they are normally. But This wouldn't help there case that's for sure.
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Post by stuart » Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:41 pm

what could a baby possibly get from the event?

walking and talking kids I could understand, but a baby? Seems a bit selfish.

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'stine
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Some serious implications to consider

Post by 'stine » Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:55 pm

This is my first year at BM and I'm concerned about me- a grown adult - taking care of myself while there. When I get into new situations, I get caught up in activities and have a tough time forcing my adult self to get rest, eat and drink water even though I understand why it is very very important to do so. How are the parents going to "Make" their baby drink and eat and rest when s/he is hot, tired and cranky? There is no reasoning with them.

That said, my real reason for responding to this thread has to do with how does bringing babies/small children impact the well being of the whole event? BM gets enough negative media attention/scrutiny as it is.....note how many law enforcement agencies will be represented there (this was discussed on another thread about drugs and BM). What's gonna happen to the event if, say, the parents bring the baby and it heat strokes, gets brain damaged and then maybe dies..all because the parents dozed off just long enough for the heat damage to occur? Where is the line between parental rights and endangerment of the whole event? Does BM have insurance to cover for such medical emergencies/casualties? (We are living in a sue-happy culture) Do parents have to sign a disclaimer? (and will it hold up in court?)

Along that line of thought....do event EMTs now have to expand all of their medical resources to accomodate pediatric needs? Babies/young children aren't small adults - they need special sized equipment and the treatment options are different.

I DEFINITELY agree with what _tears_ said about not bringing a baby/child if the parents have not been the BM. Parents - ask yourself how you will justify to family, friends and legal authorities for your choice to bring your baby/child to BM if your baby/child gets permanently injured. The baby/child is too young to gain anything emotionally from the experience and the physical endangerment issues are high, so ...why do it? Just to prove that you can? And does your insurance cover the medical care if something happens.....some policies don't cover extreme activities and related Medivac costs. Can you afford for something to go wrong?


I ponder....if the BM culture respects dogs and horses enough to not make them endure BM, shouldn't we extend that courtesy to babies/small children?

'stine

p.s. one last small picture issue....common courtesy....are nearby campers going to have to endure or resettle their camp somewhere else when... and you know this will happen.... the baby has a long crying and wailing period because he or she is hot or cranky or teething or collicky or just because?

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'stine
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Post by 'stine » Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:28 pm

maybe BM should take a hint from amusement park rides......post a sign at the gate which reads, "You must be this tall to burn." ;-)

MayaP
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Wasn't Asking for your opinions, thanks.

Post by MayaP » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:53 pm

- I know I'm a good mother.
- I wasn't asking for your opinion.
- Thanks to the *few* people who actually answered the question.
- There's another thread about "Kids at Burning Man" which *was* soliciting opinions. I'm sure the most self-righteous of you have been compelled to let your opinions be known there *as well*.
- To those of you who defended the possibility that I might actually know what's best for my child, thanks.
- Next time, don't feed the trolls.

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'stine
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Post by 'stine » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:58 pm

point taken. I will start a new thread on the legalities issue.

I hope you have a safe and happy BM experience whether you decide to bring your child or not. :-)

'stine

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