Low income people not allowed?

Questions, answers, tips & tricks for newbies and veterans alike
atossab
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Post by atossab » Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:06 am

What irks me too is that if someone sneaks in, there's nothing you can do about it. It's too late. After working your ass off for a year and planning in your free time and blah blah blah, some jerk or jerkess is planning on hiding in an RV somewhere. Once their in, there's no way to prove it. I guess you could BURN them as suggested, ha ha! "you can sneak in anytime you like, but you can never leeaave."

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Post by TheMuse » Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:20 pm

We were on our way out of BM last year when some guy was going between cars asking for $ for the bus ride home. When I told him (truthfully) that we didn't have any cash he flipped me off and yelled "NICE FUCKIN RV"... a vehicle which my friends and I had practially gone broke to rent. What an assuming asshole!
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atossab
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Post by atossab » Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:46 pm

He must have though BRC stood for Black Rock Communists. I'm sorry you got that on the way out, how ugly of him.

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Post by dman » Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:45 pm

Prolly the same Burnier-than-thou fucktard that came by last year, cooled off in our mist tent, welcomed our offer of ice-cold beer, plopped down in our comfy, shaded chairs and then proceeded to give us grief about the large truck used to haul all that stuff out to the playa to begin with.

I plan to gift grey-water enemas to anyone sporting that attitude this year, but my campmates will probably stop me (or will they?..... only one way to know for sure).
"Yes, but is it art?" "No, Art is over there, on the couch."

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:09 pm

this sounds like a great time to introduce my first sig
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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:17 pm

dman wrote:Prolly the same Burnier-than-thou fucktard that came by last year, cooled off in our mist tent, welcomed our offer of ice-cold beer, plopped down in our comfy, shaded chairs and then proceeded to give us grief about the large truck used to haul all that stuff out to the playa to begin with.
Darnit! I hate people like that! I'm all for minimizing impact but you gotta be able to thing about impact and how things are interconnected.



(and here I offer up an apoligy to anyone who's waded through some of my more passsionate responces to trolling posts and thinks I'm pushing a simple agenda.)

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:55 pm

I plan to gift grey-water enemas to anyone sporting that attitude this year
Nah, bring some dry ice and gift 'em a grey water popsicle.
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Captain Goddammit
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Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:45 pm

Badger wrote: Nah, bring some dry ice and gift 'em a grey water popsicle.
The popsicle, if applied properly, could become an enema of sorts...
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Stormy
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Post by Stormy » Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:04 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:At the risk of sounding elitist, I'm gonna say that BM is basically an expensive party that isn't wise to attend unless you have the disposable income to blow and still keep your bills paid.
Perhaps it has come to that for some people. Though historically it was about $23 to get in. Even now the Borg doesn't just want people who can pay $200+ to get in. Being relatively poor is not an obstacle, it just requires more planning.

Some people get in cheaper by planning ahead and buying the low price tickets when they come out. Others volunteer to be involved in important projects for the city and get discounted tickets. Those who have real artistic contributions to make but not a lot of cash can apply for scholarships. Some theme camps give scholarships to members of their camp who earn it.

Burning Man doesn't have to undergo the same sort of gentrification that San Francisco went through. A situation where newly affluent people all wanted to move to SF because of its unique culture, created by artists, writers, philosphers, activists, etc. Then all the well heeled folks drove the real estate prices up and the artists had to move to Oakland, Emeryville and even farther away. As the artists and creaters left it became more and more like any other place.

An art festival, is an art festival. Traditionally most artists have not taken safe corporate jobs and therefore just barely scrape by, especially with the recession we're living under. If Burning Man didn't have ways of making it possible for starving artists to go, I think it would be just another rave.
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Post by thedrunkenmonkey » Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:39 pm

I think it's less about low-income people and more about "Get your shit together and don't expect others to carry you there."

I know a guy who makes less than poverty level and manages to go EVERY year. It CAN be done, but reality - it's a long way out. It's a lot of food and planning and production.

It TAKES WORK.
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Post by Tancorix » Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:46 pm

I think it's less about low-income people and more about "Get your shit together and don't expect others to carry you there."
Ding! Ding! Ding! Someone finally got it. Radical self sufficiency is still a part of BM. Preparation is king.

Instead of bitching with the gate opening in a week, why not channel that energy into preparing for next year? Start thinking about it now...54 weeks should be sufficient time to get it all together.

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Post by angrykittie25 » Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:42 pm

I am on disability and am raising a baby on my own on the small amount of money I get from disability. I wanted to go this year, but a number of circumstances made me realize that I could not attend. I am slowly saving up money for next year hoping that I will be able to attend. Circumstances may arise once again, as they like to do, and I may not be able to attend once again, but I will keep trying until I make it.
Being of low income, does not make things impossible, it sometimes makes it harder to attain. I will appreciate Burning Man more knowing that I have put so much effort and planning into going, rather than just being able to decide to get a ticket at the last minute and take a trip. I think that in a lot of cases, being low income is actually better. Life would definately be a little less stressful if I had a nice cushy bank account to fall back on, but I don't have that luxury. I have to work hard to get everything I have, and I think that having less money, has built character in me.

You have to set priorities, Burning Man is not number one on my list, so it can wait. Sooner or later I will get there, and I will appreciate it more because I finally made it happen. But for now I focus on my daughter and sock away the little extra money I come up with, and when I have enough, I will go. Your life is not going to end because you miss burning man, there's always next year.

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Juju
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Post by Juju » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:51 am

Bad shit always seems to happen around playa time... 2 years ago we were nearly killed in an accident coming home, last year my car was broken into and my tickets were stolen (they were in my purse with some cash) 2 weeks before the event, same car broke down and I lost my job a matter of days after returning home from the playa.

I was even unemployed for 6 months of the past year, and my bin o'random burningstuff was stolen from my backyard. Altho sometimes it seems like the universe is conspiring against me, I MUST DEFEAT IT!

We all fall on hard times now and again. if I hadn't found a job when I did, there's a good possibility I'd be staying home. But I'm not, because my BM week is valuable to me, and I'm willing to work my ass off and pull shit together to make it possible. There are always options for living cheaply. I'm a lazy, directionless layabout, but if I can do it, there's no excuse for anyone else :)
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Post by no_ones_koolaid » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:04 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:The bit by MissNev about it being expensive to go to Hawaii was right on the mark.
not really. I found it much easier to get to hawaii. it's actually cheaper to fly there than to buy a burning man ticket. and once I got there, there was a great deal of work trade - I didn't even have to deal with money most of the time, just an honest exchange of labor for goods. some of us just don't like to deal with the dirty dollar if at all possible.

I'm actually surprised how many of you are down on the original poster. shit happens. people fall on hard times. this summer I lost everything I had through *forces beyond my control*....maybe most of you have never had this happen to you. you're lucky. I work fucking hard and believe me I never thought I'd be in this situation....but the universe flattened me like a pancake.

maybe these are the times when people most need the burn.

or maybe all those homeless people you pass everyday are just lazy. they must want to be out there.

yeah, whatever. the ignorance of most of you amazes me. I'm not afraid to call SF elitism when I see it....wake up, have a little more compassion.

the fact is most festivals provide some form of work exchange for people who don't have the means but are *willing to work*....thus providing a *fair* exchange. $250? $350? give me a break. for some of us other half, that's a month's survival right there.

it's all fine and dandy to get ayn rand on everyone's ass....but believe me, sometimes things get out of control despite our best efforts. once more - if you've never been there, you're lucky. and I would argue that this is when we need the most support and compassion from others. there is nothing dishonorable in being willing to give what you have, and willing to admit when you genuinely need help.

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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:46 am

no_ones_koolaid wrote: I'm actually surprised how many of you are down on the original poster. shit happens. people fall on hard times. this summer I lost everything I had through *forces beyond my control*....maybe most of you have never had this happen to you. you're lucky. I work fucking hard and believe me I never thought I'd be in this situation....but the universe flattened me like a pancake.
2002, 3 months before the event....I had something similar happen where I lost my ass due to forces way beyond my control. I buckled down and made my BM trip happen anyway. I tapped into family and friends, I worked overtime, I worked odd jobs and projects....
or maybe all those homeless people you pass everyday are just lazy. they must want to be out there.


There are homeless who prefer the streets rather than deal with byzantine layers of various agencies and fundy groups who want to "help them" so while you're being sarcastic, there is truth in that statement.
yeah, whatever. the ignorance of most of you amazes me. I'm not afraid to call SF elitism when I see it....wake up, have a little more compassion.
Pull out the big brush of stereotyping and slap me across the head with it. Wow I guess BM is just a mass exodus from SF for the week? Wrong. This board has people from across America on it. How about expanding your point of view a little? Or maybe read the survey results from BM and see where burners come from?
the fact is most festivals provide some form of work exchange for people who don't have the means but are *willing to work*....thus providing a *fair* exchange. $250? $350? give me a break. for some of us other half, that's a month's survival right there.
If you want something bad enough you work for it. There are no free rides, or even one way rides. BM is not an entitlement. If you want to go you have to get off your ass and make it happen, that's all there is to it. They are not obligated to give you squat. And if they start shelling out money for half price tickets for their volunteers it drives up the overall cost of producing the event which means they might have to scale back in other areas to make it happen. Think about it.
it's all fine and dandy to get ayn rand on everyone's ass....but believe me, sometimes things get out of control despite our best efforts. once more - if you've never been there, you're lucky. and I would argue that this is when we need the most support and compassion from others. there is nothing dishonorable in being willing to give what you have, and willing to admit when you genuinely need help.
Yeah, I don't mind helping others...hell I'm a United Way Coordinator and I do a lot of other helpful things (the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society is a group I go all out for). But BM...this is an optional life experience. Nobody is required to attend BM. It's not a critical thing like finding food, clothing, shelter, or medical care. Those things I'll gladly help with. But don't be riding people's ass if we don't chip in for an optional life experience. If I can do it....while I'm recovering from car accidents with major head injuries and memory loss, my sister's cancer, and my mother's non-hodgkin's lymphoma and still make it happen for 3 years now....anyone can.

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bdongray
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Where does the money go?

Post by bdongray » Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:13 am

no_ones_koolaid wrote:
Captain Goddammit wrote:...$250? $350? give me a break. for some of us other half, that's a month's survival right there...
What has caused the cost of the gate value ticket to go from $250 to $350?
That's a 40% increase!

I do understand all pre-gate tickets are at most $250, so the total income of BM.LLC is not going to be 40% more than 2003, but I bet it is significantly more this year, unless there is an expectation that the population is going to decrease (eg due to higher ticket costs and/or the politics of changes).

So before I go jumping to conclusions, does anyone have some details about BM income over the past few years, expected income for 2004, and the approximate outgoings of the money?

I hope it's not lining someone's pocket!
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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:18 am

I've seen this explained by the org somewhere but I'm at work so I can't provide the cites right now. But...the higher ticket prices are to discourage the last minute types. BM relies on advanced ticket sales to fund the run-up to the event. They want to reward those who plan ahead.

Also as quite a few people will vouch for, there's a perception that people who come for 3-4 days at the end of the event are more of the spectator and yahoo types. Raising the ticket price discourages these kinds of people.

Again...the key to an affordable and successful burn is planning and preparation.

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Post by Last Real Burner » Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:36 am

no_ones_koolaid wrote:

yeah, whatever. the ignorance of most of you amazes me. I'm not afraid to call SF elitism when I see it....wake up, have a little more compassion.


yes it amazes everyone. And I agree that we should be a little more compassion, but like my dear sweet grandmother use to say "FUCK EM' I'm not fatting frogs for snakes".



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stuart
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Post by stuart » Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:29 am

  • it's actually cheaper to fly there than to buy a burning man ticket.
horse shit.

You can get a BM ticket for $145 if you are of meager means and can pull your head out of your ass well enough to plan in advance.

Last time I flew to Kauai it cost me around $500.
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bdongray
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Check your facts

Post by bdongray » Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:24 pm

stuart wrote:
  • it's actually cheaper to fly there than to buy a burning man ticket.
horse shit
a) LAX (Los Angeles) to HNL (Honolulu) Aug 31-Sep 7: $306 on United Airlines or United Airway (as of just now).
b) Burningman ticket for Aug 31 is probably more than $350 (as that's the Aug 30 price).

So BM ticket <B>is</B> more than Hawaii airfare.

Planning in advance: yes a BM ticket can be as low as $145 (although that would be an exceptionally good price to get, they sell out very quickly). A planned LAX-HNL trip can be as low as $258 (Dec 8-15 on NorthWest Airlines). But the BM ticket price does not include any travel expenses to get there, which for LA is 600 miles, about $60. So anyone with a $200 BM ticket (which you do have to plan a fair bit in advance to get) in LA, will be spending more than a planned ahead trip to Hawaii!

For me, travelling from Minneapolis (2000 miles one way). My MSP-HNL ticket is $511 (eg Am.West). I estimate my fuel will also be about $500, and then I have my $250 ticket to get me that last mile from the gate to the Man. Total $750. So for me, flying to Hawaii is still cheaper! If I had space for someone to travel with me, it'd be $250 each for fuel, and $250 each for ticket. So about the same price as both of us going to Hawaii.

Both places I then have to have food and shelter. I'd imagine the cost of the Hawaii trip starts to outstrip the cost of the BM trip.
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Post by atossab » Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:30 pm

maybe these are the times when people most need the burn.

or maybe all those homeless people you pass everyday are just lazy. they must want to be out there.

yeah, whatever. the ignorance of most of you amazes me. I'm not afraid to call SF elitism when I see it....wake up, have a little more compassion.
A note on ignorance: are you projecting? What the hell does homelessness have to do with Burning Man? Nothing! And back when I did live in Berkeley and SF several years ago, I fucking helped so many homeless people eat and get clean and I volunteered at the foodbank whenever I could. SF elitism? I don't know ANYWHERE else in the country where the homeless are treated with such respect and the mentally ill people on the streets are befriended and assisted to such an extent. What the hell are you babbling about?
The originial poster gave a long ass explanation of how she has NEVER paid full price by doing this and that, and now finally, she has reached a point where she can't get a free ride. Worse, she then bashes the whole event politically just cuz she can't afford ti. Don't fucking go if you can't afford it. It's not a political issue and it's not really imperative to your life. Unless it is, in which case you wouldn't be begging at the last minute, you'd have a better plan.

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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Where does the money go?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:18 pm

bdongray wrote:
no_ones_koolaid wrote:
Captain Goddammit wrote:...$250? $350? give me a break. for some of us other half, that's a month's survival right there...
I didn't write that...
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Post by no_ones_koolaid » Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:38 am

ok.....I deserve some of these responses, I was annoyed when I wrote my first post, so I apologize for being a little over the top.

you're right, burning man is not *essential* like food and clothing are essential. it's a luxury. I understand that. no one is entitled to be there, they have to work for it. whining about not being able to go because you didn't plan ahead is spoiled.

however. that being said.

burning man is the most expensive festival out there. and I agree with the original poster that this keeps many low income people from attending the event. burning man, consciously or not, is discriminating against a large group of people – younger people, people without disposable income, people who live in their cars and don't have palm pilots to keep their lives organized months in advance, spontaneous and mentally unstable people who are utterly incapable of planning that far ahead. burning man is largely for grounded, stable people with lots of disposable income. not saying this goes across the board, obviously there are a lot of exceptions, but for the most part this is true.

and yes, this seems strange to me. because a lot of these people which are excluded every year could contribute a lot to the event.

also, a lot of these people end up sneaking in. wouldn't it make more sense financially to provide a way for these people to work for their tickets? yes burning man is something you have to get for yourself – but does money have to be the only way to get it? again, a lot of people try to deal with money as little as possible. this does not mean that they are lazy.

also. no one's demanding anything, just asking for help. burning man is not essential...*but* people who have really hit bottom might have the most to gain from burning man. just like miracling someone at a phish show....which I've been on both ends of. sometimes it feels right to give and sometimes it's ok to receive. so what's the big deal?

and a note on hawaii – airtech.com. actually it only cost me $129 to fly there from the west coast, which is cheaper than the cheapest burn ticket. like I said, once you get there work exchange for food and lodging is abundant. so sorry to the gentleman who spent $500 to fly to kauai but that really wasn't necessary.
atossab wrote: A note on ignorance: are you projecting? What the hell does homelessness have to do with Burning Man? Nothing! And back when I did live in Berkeley and SF several years ago, I fucking helped so many homeless people eat and get clean and I volunteered at the foodbank whenever I could. SF elitism? I don't know ANYWHERE else in the country where the homeless are treated with such respect and the mentally ill people on the streets are befriended and assisted to such an extent. What the hell are you babbling about?
really. maybe the key words are 'several years ago'.....not sure what you're talking about, because berkeley is the worst place I've ever been homeless. treated with respect? befriended? most of the students here treat the homeless like shit. the california aid programs (foodstamps, welfare to work, etc) are a joke. yes there are a few remnants of the past (ie: berkeley free clinic) that still provide a great deal of help, and of course it's a city so there are lots of free meals. but no way would I call this the best place to be homeless. oregon for one has much saner ways of dealing with these problems. so that's what the HELL I was babbling about, thanks for asking.
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Post by JezebelinHell » Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:07 am

Just for the record, I'm about as low income as a person can be. I work in a video store, my dad's a career musician, and my mom's unemployed. Burning Man's a priority for me though, so I budget throughout the year by eating nothing but ramen, and not going out much. This year, I got kinda fuct in the ass because my car got broken into and I had to pay $600 to replace the glass that got busted. Fortunately for me, a very kindly burner sold me his $165 ticket, and then bought one for $250 for himself. If that hadn't come through, I would have sold off the majority of my DVD collection on half.com. I'd love if the festival were less expensive, but almost anyone can pull the cash together if they try hard enough.

My sympathies are with those who can't burn with us this year, but just start saving for next year now and you won't have to complain about it again.
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Post by AntiM » Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 am

(with tongue firmly in cheek):

Oh well, there's always the Rainbow Family Gathering. That's free.

(or maybe not)

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Post by swampdog » Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:33 pm

I don't have a sock to say this for me, so I'll just put on my flameproof bvds now.

no_ones_koolaid says:
burning man, consciously or not, is discriminating against ... spontaneous and mentally unstable people who are utterly incapable of planning that far ahead. burning man is largely for grounded, stable people with lots of disposable income.

ok, except for the part about lots of disposable income required (which jezebel_in_hell and others refute pretty well) I'm going to give a big three cheers that BM is for grounded, stable people.

Maybe I'm just a yuppie newbie mofo, but I tend to think that that is a good thing.

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Post by maeabee » Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:12 pm

I suppose that some people plan this, as they would plan to pay rent every month. For me I have 364 days to plan for the next time. So I keep putting a little something away every month to be able to go. I guess that being stable would consist of organization and determination.

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Re: Where does the money go?

Post by allanon2 » Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:21 pm

bdongray wrote:
no_ones_koolaid wrote:
Captain Goddammit wrote:...$250? $350? give me a break. for some of us other half, that's a month's survival right there...
What has caused the cost of the gate value ticket to go from $250 to $350?
That's a 40% increase!

I do understand all pre-gate tickets are at most $250, so the total income of BM.LLC is not going to be 40% more than 2003, but I bet it is significantly more this year, unless there is an expectation that the population is going to decrease (eg due to higher ticket costs and/or the politics of changes).

So before I go jumping to conclusions, does anyone have some details about BM income over the past few years, expected income for 2004, and the approximate outgoings of the money?

I hope it's not lining someone's pocket!
well first of all thy give out 2000 free tickets!
yep all of you guys support about 7-8% of the people that attend. I am not sure who gets those free tickets.

second- at least in the past the some high mucky mucks got large artist stipends (over 10K but under 100K) that was a few years ago. I do not know where that artist stipends go these days.

third- i willl leave to your imagination.

have a nice day
rex

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Post by Hotspur » Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:39 am

Here's the news flash:

Running Burning Man costs money. Johnny on the Spot isn't giving us the porta poties. The BLM isn't giving us the land.

So how do you want to pay for this?

You know, I don't have any sympathy for the "people who live in their cars and don't have palm pilots to keep their lives organized months in advance, spontaneous and mentally unstable people who are utterly incapable of planning that far ahead" because quite frankly, if you're incapable of planning ahead, you don't belong at burning man.

It's a desert. It's an environment that will kill you if you can't "plan ahead." If the price prevents people who are incapable of doing enough planning to get there and survive without being a total leech from going, good! If you can't get your shit together enough to save up to get a ticket, I suspect you're far more likely to be a drain on the event once you get there than a benefit.

I think it's borderline offensive that you talk about the Org "discriminating" because they expect people to cover their own costs. Do you even know what discrimination is? I'll give you a hint: it's not asking people to pay their own way!

Charity is a wonderful thing, but it's pretty sad when people start feeling entitled to it.

The problem is that the Org doesn't have a whole lot of work that it pays for. You want to volunteer for your ticket? Well, what can you do that mitigates the cost to the Org of having you on the playa? You want to be a greeter or a ranger? Except, whoops, those folks are buying their tickets.

If the org just finds makework, or displaces true volunteers for people "volunteering for a ticket," all it's doing is passing the cost of your ticket on to the rest of us.

Hey, if the org wants to do that (and it does, for a limited number of people) great. But don't you dare call their refusal to do it for everyone who asks "discrimination."

That's insulting to people who are actually getting discriminated against.

(Biting tongue on Homeless in Berkeley rant.)

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i agree you have to be preapred

Post by allanon2 » Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:00 am

[quote="Hotspur"]Here's the news flash:

Running Burning Man costs money. Johnny on the Spot isn't giving us the porta poties. The BLM isn't giving us the land.

So how do you want to pay for this?

You know, I don't have any sympathy for the "people who live in their cars and don't have palm pilots to keep their lives organized months in advance, spontaneous and mentally unstable people who are utterly incapable of planning that far ahead" because quite frankly, if you're incapable of planning ahead, you don't belong at burning man.

It's a desert. It's an environment that will kill you if you can't "plan ahead." If the price prevents people who are incapable of doing enough planning to get there and survive without being a total leech from going, good! If you can't get your shit together enough to save up to get a ticket, I suspect you're far more likely to be a drain on the event once you get there than a benefit. quote]


the first year going out there. Their was a guy who basically showed up with nothing and depended on everyone else to feed, clothe, and provide shelter for him. It was scary and if i remember right he also had no ride back!

ttyl
rex

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