Harrassed at gate for bringing child with no ID

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hipifish
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Harrassed at gate for bringing child with no ID

Post by hipifish » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:45 pm

Greetings Burners!
Lovely burn this year, eh? The way the fire slowly creeped up the man & you could see it burning as an entitiy in itself rather than being completely engulfed by the flames from the base. Ahhhh. It was magnificent.

I am a part of a theme camp and arrived around 1:30 AM on Saturday shortly after the gates opened for members of a theme camp. We were 4 in all and greeted by a pleasant woman bundled up against the wind & dust. She asked if we all had tickets to which I replied, "No." and that is when it got complicated. I was travelling with my father, a friend and my 11 year old daughter on her third burn. I was told by a very hostile and aggressive DPW worker in charge at the time (blonde man totally intoxicated on something...perhaps his name was Will?) that I needed some 'proof' of my daughter's age. He was cussing and yelling and refusing to hear any logic. I asked him repeatedly (and calmly) to engage in conversation with my daughter perhaps by allowing her to get out of the car to see her size, teeth etc. I said ask her quetions about her school, when she was born or anything else he might find as a means for IDing an 11 yr old.

Finally, in desperation, I remembered that she one of the youngest members of the Fire Conclave & Crimson could ID her age. Then he really got abusive and admonished me for 'name dropping'. The funny thing is that he didn't_even_know BMs policy on what age gets into the event without a ticket. Here, pulled this from the BM site myself "Children 12 years old and under get in free. Children 13 years and up must have a ticket."

It took me over a day to shake that off and it was my fourth burn. My poor daughter thought she was dreaming because it was so unreal & she was so rudely awaken and yelled at by this man. Finally, my dad started getting upset and returning the angry comments with like kind. Next year, I will have a copy of the policy listed on the website in addition to her birth certificate. To whomever the bystander was outside the car who told the angry guy in charge to cool it cause he was messing with a child, THANK YOU!!! It allowed me to get in the gate, pitch a tent & put my sweet girl to bed, at home on the playa where she is happiest.

Any suggestions on how to handle this type of situation? And any way to keep the completely fuckered up people from working a shift?

Ridge

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Ivy
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Post by Ivy » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:56 pm

Any suggestions on how to handle this type of situation?
I think you already answered your own question:
Next year, I will have a copy of the policy listed on the website in addition to her birth certificate.
While I don't think it was appropriate for the gate staff to engage in an arguement with you, I'm a little surprised (perturbed?) that you didn't have any ID for the child. 11 is very close to 12 and children grow at all different rates and looking superficially at height, weight or teeth is not really an adequate way of determining age. I've met 12 year olds taller than I am, and I've met 15 year olds who could pass for 8. I don't think they were out of line asking for ID.

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Re: Harrassed at gate for bringing child with no ID

Post by Dustdevil » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:12 pm

I was told by a very hostile and aggressive DPW worker in charge at the time must have a ticket."

Are you assuming this person was a DPW worker? During the shifts that I worked Gate/Perimeter we never had DPW personal in charge. Just curious.
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hipifish
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Post by hipifish » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:16 pm

I don't think they were out of line asking for ID.

Yo...I'm a 4th year burner. I *read* the survival guide. I even read the updated information on children. NO WHERE does it say BTW~ you may encounter a totally fuckeredupasshole at the gate, so be sure and bring a birth certificate. NEXT year, I will plan for such an event, BUT more parents need to be informed to bring birth certificates if this is a 'new' policy. I was several hundred miles away from home, had been on a plane & long car ride and it was 1:30 in the morning. NOT once in the years previous was I asked to bring a birth certificate.

The guy was out of line and making up policy as he pleased and when given a legitimate means to ID my daughter....attacked even more. Perhaps it is the norm for those lacking integrity to assume that the rest of the world is also lacking that very integrity. NOT once have I ever lied about my child's age. How else does a little person learn how to be in a world where honesty is key? By example. You can damn well bet that when she turns 13, she will GLADLY have a ticket in hand after having no 'official' evidence or ticket stub the previous 4 years of her attending.

The point in the long run, my friend....is to bring attention to the ORG and other unsuspecting parents that a new issue has come up.

For you to presume that I need to plan for aliens to land on my house even though it has never happened before...is simply absurd. Yes, my bike got stolen....you don't hear me bitching about that BECAUSE I know that is a possibility. You don't see the person behind the ticket window at the movie theater demanding a birth certificate from every parent who says there child is a certain age. Who the fuck cusses out a child right after they were rudely awaken except unhappy people.

The delivery was the issue, Ivy. Not the fact that he didn't trust me or her.
Ridge

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~

Post by sparkletarte » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:38 pm

From your OP I too got the idea you were annoyed that you were expected to have ID for your kid and you were unhappy about the argument. I'm surprised that as a parent you wouldn't automatically carry some sort of ID, but everyone's different. I agree that it was unreasonable for the person to argue about it and yell at your daughter. Perhaps you want to talk to their employer/volunteer co-ordinator about it.

For you to presume Ivy was asking you to prepare for aliens landing on your roof is rather absurd.

hipifish
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Post by hipifish » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:40 pm

Are you assuming this person was a DPW worker? During the shifts that I worked Gate/Perimeter we never had DPW personal in charge. Just curious.

Devil of Dustiness. You are correct. I am presuming it was a DPW worker. I had the pleasure of riding home w/ the gf of a DPW worker AND was even lucky enough to be on the playa in June where I was greeted with open arms & a hunk of bacon by members of the DPW base camp. Lving on the playa for 3 + months is no easy task much less for the love of an event. There was a very large contingent of people hanging out at the gate when I arrived. They by no means had the freshly landed on the playa look. Now.....who else would be at the gates partying it up like try masters the moment the gates open for general entry of theme camps?

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Post by Ivy » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:48 pm

who else would be at the gates partying it up like try masters the moment the gates open for general entry of theme camps?
Um, the gate staff, perhaps?

I still don't think theya re out of line to ask for ID, even if you're carrying a baby in swaddling clothes. While I understand your thoughs about honestly, not everyone has your integrity, and really, without ID, how is the gate staff to know how old your child is. I'm glad youa re an honest person. But it is possible that there aer others out there trying to get their teenage children in for free under the guise of being under 13.

I'm in agreement with sparkletarte, too. If I were taking my child on any sort of trip/vacation, I'd be carrying ID for them anyway.

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Post by YerNotDaBossOMe » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:19 pm

While the ID issue has merrit, I am more concerned about how a supposed adult treated a child. If Hipifish's account is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't), then it's a new low in being high.
There...I said it and I'm glad!

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Post by unjonharley » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:58 pm

I too had a small disagrement with gate. I just found the right person (Sweet Thing)(( Her name)).

Thank you again for getting thing set right.
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Post by Papa Bear » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:35 pm

I was driving the car Ridge (hipifish) was in, so was literally right in the middle of the whole exchange. Her version of the story is pretty much dead-on the way I remember it.

I didn't catch the guy's name either, but at one point he claimed to be in charge of gate. Which would to some extent be backed up by the fact that the woman who initially dealt with us (and was perplexed when faced with a child without a ticket) had asked us to pull ahead and to the side while she got someone with more authority.

Unlike Ridge, I don't recall him actually cursing at any of us. That came from another group that seemed to be aiming verbal abuse wherever they could at people coming in, and which made a beeline straight for the middle of our situation until someone told them to "cool it, there's a kid in the car".

But regardless of whether he was cursing or not, this guy's behavior wasn't the least bit appropriate for resolving a situation with adults, much less kids. From the moment he showed up, he came across as aggressive, reactionary, and clearly hostile. No idea whether he was drunk, high, exhausted past the point of functioning professionally, or just a natural-born jackass, but any way you slice it he was out of line.

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:43 pm

DPW doesn't work Gate, but if we did, theme campers arriving at 1:30 AM on Saturday before the event would have been treated with all due aplomb.
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Post by Badger » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:55 pm

I'd put together a more descriptive writing of the event as you remember it. Include date, time, people you were with and a frank summary of the exchange.

Send it to Spiderman who heads up the gate team. Explain your concerns and that as a minimum you'd like some acknowledgement of your message. Explain to him your concerns and what you'd hope to get from your exchange (an explanation, an apology, an investigation, etc.). Keep assumptions to a minimum. Send it to him. Give it a few as far as a reply goes remebering that a good number of the folks want some down time so soon after the event. If you don't get what you're looking for climb up the ladder a bit higher. Maybe Harley DuBois who oversees the gate/Rangers. I don't think you're going to get resolution from this board.

Just a suggestion.
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Post by Princess Dammitt » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:53 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but how would one get an ID for a child so young (short of a passport). I personally wouldn't have thougt twice about bringing an ID for a child to prove that they are young enough to get in free. Most events/parks/ect just ask for the child's age when they are let in.
My first picture ID was my student body card in high school!
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Post by PurpleKoosh » Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:33 pm

Princess Dammitt wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but how would one get an ID for a child so young (short of a passport).
The state of California will issue a state ID card to anyone, regardless of age, with a Social Security number and proof of both birth date and legal residence.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#idcard

Check with your own state's motor vehicle department for local requirements.
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Post by Papa Bear » Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:53 pm

Badger wrote:Just a suggestion.
And a good one, Badger (as usual).

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:22 am

Pardon my ignorance, but how would one get an ID for a child so young (short of a passport).
AFAIK, it's called a birth certificate. Poor thing might have been raised by wolves, though.

How come no one is outraged at trying to get through the Gate a day before the event?
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Post by Papa Bear » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:25 am

Bob wrote:
How come no one is outraged at trying to get through the Gate a day before the event?
Perhaps because we were there to set up a registered theme camp, and as such had been informed by the org that we could show up any time after 12:01 AM Saturday morning?

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Post by hipifish » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:19 am

Whew. What a lot to think about and comment on from so many insightful burners. I love this cult (wink, wink) :lol: and THANKS to everyone for sharing.

Papa BEAR! Thanks for backing me up & straightening me out where needed. Missing you already. AND thanks for the great pics you posted to our board.
Princess Dammit brought up a question that I too had. How am I supposed to get my kid an ID short of standing in one of those cheezy fair lines where the local TV station finger prints kids?
Purplekoosh has a solution for me when I move to Cali....will check to see if that is an option in CO.
Bob...nice_oh_so_nice use of the word aplomb. One thing about the birth certificate though...if I were lacking integrity, I would not hesitate to falsify my kids birth certificate to get my kid in free. It is the first document that came to mind for me though as a form of ID with birthdate.
BADGER! You are the man. You have the information that I wanted. I will send a brief email to Spiderman and like any good complainer...have a solution (attempt at least) suggested when I send it.

THANK YOU all so much for sharing. I'll keep you posted on any new developements.

ONE LAST QUESTION...how do you all get the quoted information in a nice box?

Love and light! Ridge

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Post by YerNotDaBossOMe » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:43 am

ONE LAST QUESTION...how do you all get the quoted information in a nice box?
Copy the text you want to quote, click the Respond button. At the Post a reply page you will see a button at the top that says Quote. Click that button, paste the quoted text, and then click the Quote button again to signify the end of the quote.
There...I said it and I'm glad!

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Post by Badger » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:45 am

ONE LAST QUESTION...how do you all get the quoted information in a nice box?
First, cut-and-paste (highlight and hit save) the portion of text you want to quote.

At the top of the reply box click the 'QUOTE' button, paste your text and then click the '*QUOTE' button again.

Then continue with your point(s).
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Post by Papa Bear » Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:29 am

Alternately, just click the "quote" button in the upper right-hand corner of the post you're replying to, then trim out whatever you don't want once the "post a reply" page comes up.
Papa Bear

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Post by Rich » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:39 pm

Ivy wrote:
I'm in agreement with sparkletarte, too. If I were taking my child on any sort of trip/vacation, I'd be carrying ID for them anyway.
Hi Ivy,

I have three children, including a 16 year old daughter. I have never carried ID around for them except for International travel. I can respect your view, but my personal opinion is that I live (at least, I used to live) in a free society. In a free society you are not required to reply to requests for 'your papers.' And you don't have to carry special id for your children.

The requirement that kids have social security numbers basically from birth causes me distress.

In fact, the assumption that we all carry identification and will present it at will is, to me, a violation of basic freedoms.

As for the gate staff demanding id of this person...it _seems_ to me that if the policy is to allow kids in for free (which actually I didn't know, and probably means I'll bring mine next year) and there is no mention of documentation requirements then what the gate person did is out of line.

The assumption in a free society is that people do not need ID in order to engage in society.

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Post by Bob » Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:30 pm

As per past arguments wrt freedom of speech, etc. -- your rights are defined in terms of you and the government, and don't pertain in the same way at a private event.

And it didn't take me very long the other day to find the "kids at bunringman" page on the main site that opens with:
All children 18 and younger must be accompanied by an adult of 21 or older. Children under 12 will be admitted for free. Children ages 12-18 require full-price tickets. Be prepared to show proof of age.
Hope this helps.
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Post by Dustdevil » Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:51 pm

Bob,

You certainly know how to cut through the BS. I admire and respect that ability.
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Post by Simply Joel » Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:51 pm

what is that i hear? why... it's a clarion of clarity... oh thank goodness for its return.

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Post by Bob » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:26 pm

Shirley, I've had my own beefs with Gate -- not least of which is that they made DPW (and other onsite staff) wear wristbands as part of the wider effort to clamp down on non-ticket-paying sneaks and sundry early arrival issues -- printed with their logo, no less. Seemed redundant given that AFAIK we all get picture laminates, and kind of feeble wrt any swag value. Some of us who didn't want to get a wrist caught while working opted for clipping them through available body piercings, but I ain't that evolved, pagan-wise.
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Post by Ivy » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:09 pm

Hi Rich,

I respect your view, too, though I respectfully disagree with it (hence the "If it were me" statement).

While I see your POV re: personal freedoms, I've been worrywart my whole life (it's genetic). If I were on a trip with my children, I would take ID--not becuase I'd think I'd need it to prove their age, but in case of any sort of emergency that came up. Am I a bit paranoid? Probably.

Like I said, I respect your point of view and totally understand where you are coming from. I just didn't want you to think that I'm in favor of some child ID national law or anything like that. It's just the way I would do things. Do I think my way is right? Of course. : ) We all think our own ways are right--that's why we do things that way. : )

However, Bob has rendered this whole discussion moot.
I love Bob. *



*Today, anyway.

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Post by hipifish » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:22 pm

All children 18 and younger must be accompanied by an adult of 21 or older. Children under 12 will be admitted for free. Children ages 12-18 require full-price tickets. Be prepared to show proof of age.
Today has been hectic & I've yet to email the org. In the mean time, new and interesting information keeps popping up here.

Has anyone ever had a difficult time searching for information on the BM website? I have and often. Just today I was searching for a specific EG email addy and I got several different years of EG information and it was tricky finding the clues to what year I was reading. I find this to be true also with other information that I have searched.

Ticket sales is also a great example. Bob, did you find that information above regarding kids & ages for ticket purchase with a specific year mentioned anywhere in the text or side links? I pulled down a quote & posted it here where I found it says that 12 and under are free with no mention of proof of ID. I found that on the tickets page. I remember specifically checking this year before I sent off for my ticket cause we're both conclave & I wanted to make sure. I presumed that it was the current year since it was on the ticket information page. I wonder what year of information each of us were viewing. My guess is as good as anyone elses. hmmmmm. There's a sumthin' funny going on around here. Who turned out the lights? ohhhhh, I like it when you touch me there. Hey, who was that and why did you stop?

And Rich, (high five's) thank you for sharing your very realistic point of view regarding children and IDs. I'm guessing (just guessing) that those supporting the idea of carrying photo ID of a preteen on a summer holiday to a private event (say, like flying to Florida and heading off to Disneyland, Universal Studios or Epcot for 2 weeks) actually have no children, have never traveled with them or given them up for adoption. The *only* time that I too have carried this sort of legal stamp is leaving the US borders. How many times have you stepped out of the house and driven a car without your license? I wonder...
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Post by Ivy » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:18 am

I'm guessing (just guessing) that those supporting the idea of carrying photo ID of a preteen on a summer holiday to a private event (say, like flying to Florida and heading off to Disneyland, Universal Studios or Epcot for 2 weeks) actually have no children, have never traveled with them or given them up for adoption.
Yes, you are just guessing. But that's a step up from assuming (albeit a small one), so I'm "guessing" that you're headed in the right direction.

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Post by AntiM » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:06 am

Wow, this seems really bizarre ... I was raised as a navy brat and have had picture ID since the age of 8. That means I've been carrying government ID for nearly four decades (shut up); I must be conditioned into thinking it is normal. Turning twelve was a big thrill for me, but my cheap dad made me claim I was 11 for two more years.

I never thought of ID as an infringement of my freedoms. Wearing a burkha and having a shopping chaperone in Saudia Arabia, THAT was an infringement of freedom. (Cheap, hilarious dad offered to sell me to the chicken vendor for $20k. Not funny.)

Why wouldn't you want ID for your kid so they can get help if they need it? I know the "show us your papers" thing is unnatural, and I'd be slow to hand out presonal info at random, but it is odd that parents are resistant to what I'd consider emergency information on a trip. Not all kids, even bright ones, are completely able to give enough information to return them home if lost. Honestly, I've met smart older kids who do not know their parents' first names or street addresses! You just never know what will happen on the road, can't hurt to arm your kid with a tool which may be useful.

Just another opinion. Maybe I was raised in a less? more? paranoid era.

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