Fuel Question

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pappachuck
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Fuel Question

Post by pappachuck » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:25 pm

Are we allowed to have our own 5000 gal. fuel truck?
  • If you are used to diesel engines you might know that industrial equipment cannot run on any diesel above B5. It damages the engine. I do not know which fuel they provide at BRC and they do not answer so I wanna bring my own.
  • Red Diesel is also a lot cheaper.
  • I also will need quite a large volume and do not know if they are able to attend my demand.
I do not see anything saying that I cannot bring my own fuel truck, because technically vehicles like semi-trucks and big generators have large fuel tanks. So why not have a whole fuel truck?

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Sham
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Sham » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:31 pm

The real question for you should be, is 5000 gallons of fuel enough? You're going to be very far from civilization and you don't want to be caught short in the middle of the week.

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Token
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Token » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:36 pm

Nope. No can do.
No more than two 55-gallon fuel drums (or no more than a total of 110 gallons of fuel) may be stored in a camp.
Anything more than that and you have to deal with Black Rock City PETROL.

No one wants your fuel tanker next to their burn barrel.

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by pappachuck » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:57 pm

So if they are not organized enough to plan ahead of time and provide the right fuel what do I do?
Rental companies get really mad if you do not use the right fuel.
To not run out of fuel I can make alternative plans, however that implies sacrifices to the infrastructure.
I really wish they could guarantee the fuel delivery before and during the event.

We need power tools to build the stuff. Otherwise we would go full-on amish. LOL

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by gaminwench » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:21 pm

This is Black Rock City we're talking about. Ain't no-one gonna guarantee you shit. Make your plan, burn your plan; nothing ever goes down as it 'should' out there. (Well, maybe sometimes things do go according to plan, but that would be cause for celebration 8) ). OMG, it WORKED!!!!!

It's part of the charm.
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motskyroonmatick
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by motskyroonmatick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:43 pm

What equipment are you running, for what purpose and for how long that you will burn through 5k gallons of fuel?
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pappachuck
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by pappachuck » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:54 pm

5K gallons are for 8 days of event + 3 days of construction before the gates open + 10% safety. This for everything, vehicles, generator and compressor.

If I had the freedom to bring my own fuel truck I would guarantee myself 110% and would be cheaper than BRC option considering the truck rental and driver.

Seems I have more self-reliance than the BRC itself LOL.

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Popeye » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:42 pm

pappachuck wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:57 pm
So if they are not organized enough to plan ahead of time and provide the right fuel what do I do? WITHOUT
Rental companies get really mad if you do not use the right fuel. SO? IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT FUEL DON'T START THE ENGINE
To not run out of fuel I can make alternative plans, however that implies sacrifices to the infrastructure. THAT MIGHT BE OK
I really wish they could guarantee the fuel delivery before and during the event.
Wish in one hand.... 11 days, 12 hours per day is about 37gph. That's a little more than a 500kw generator would burn at full load.

We need power tools to build the stuff. Otherwise we would go full-on amish. LOL
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Token
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Token » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:49 pm

Oh for fucks sake, that is such horseshit.

5000 gallons of diesel will run a 250KW generator 24/7 at full load for 12 days.

‘The fuck are you gonna do with 250KW worth of power out there.

Please tell us who you camping with so we can warn them that you’re
dangerously clueless.

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Sham » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:16 am

pappachuck wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:54 pm
5K gallons are for 8 days of event + 3 days of construction before the gates open + 10% safety. This for everything, vehicles, generator and compressor.
If you figure the event opening on Sunday afternoon and you sprint to find an open camping area spot, you'll need at least 3+ days to set up. Wind and dust storms can/will set you back. Camps effectively start breaking down on Sunday and exodus Monday morning. You can take a bit of extra time to pack up, but you will mostly be in an empty city.
You won't be needing any gas for vehicles, as your usage will be zero for the week.

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by pappachuck » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:17 am

The previous camp design had a 100 KVA generator and very bad power grid.
I am suggesting a new layout with a 250 KVA generator running for 24/7. Considering that it usually has a nominal PF of 0.8 it can supply up to 200KW. The reality will be more like a PF of 0.7 or 0.6. So I expect only 150 KW worst case.

The proposed is to run HVAC for 80 people. So in the previous layout we have Hexayurts for 80 people fitting about 3 people per Hexayurt giving us a total of 25 of those. It means 25 window A/C units consuming a total of at least 25 KW. We have also to power sound equipment, lights, art installation, kitchen (we give away free Acai every day, need to be frozen) and Mutant Vehicle, shower trailer, bathroom trailer, water pumps and more.

So in my new proposed design is to have a large tent of 40 X 200 ft to comport sleeping area, kitchen, chill-out area and more and run a single 25 ton HVAC. It ends up being cheaper than the previous structure and provide a huge acclimatized area.

Previous camp has a cost of 240,000.00 and takes days to setup. My design has a cost of 120,000.00 and takes only 12h to setup considering the new logistic strategy and the use of a forklift.

Having a 5000 gal. truck does not mean I will fill 5000 gal. of diesel.

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some seeing eye
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by some seeing eye » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:58 am

This is a question for fuel@burningman.org.

If you haven't already, you should set up a burner profile. Search for "burner profile" on burningman.org.

There are a lot of rules about how the event operates that have been set by the BLM, the county sheriff, the state highway patrol, the FAA and I'm sure others. The people in you camp who worked with placement last year would know much of it. There are various theme camp organizer forums, just be sure you are getting truth as many forums are anonymous.
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ygmir
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by ygmir » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:05 am

well, really, with planning and fees, you can go in and out. So, what about your fuel barrels, and, every morning before breakfast you scoot out and fill them then come back?
Gerlach is not that far...
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Lonesomebri » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:00 am

I have a feeling this is the dream that the skool turned into.
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Jackass » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:05 am

I have a feeling pappachunk is a major stroker, here to troll
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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A-RockLeFrench
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:24 am

Is this your first year? Are you planning power/fuel logistics for a huge-scale camp and bragging about your budget as a burgin?

pappachuck
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by pappachuck » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:15 pm

The rules related to BLM, sheriff, rangers, etc... all of those I already cleared. The only one that does not give feedback is the BRC fuel. In their email they say they will be back working in March. But it is middle March and nothing yet.

I am not bragging about camp budget. I am just trying to increase the budget efficiency. Gerlach does not have Red diesel.
No, I am not here to troll. I had a simple question whether it was possible or not to bring a fuel truck and you all changed the topic and started to question me, my plan and my ability to organize the logistics.

Previous organizers ended spending more than they planned, now the next step is to cut costs while increasing efficiency and quality.

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some seeing eye
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by some seeing eye » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:28 pm

To the OP, we really do want you to succeed, believe it or not. Now it appears you may have a real, and signifficant budget. Therefore have your canp send you to the theme camp summit. It is in SF soon.

I don’t hink it has been done in BRC, but the airconditioned tent thing is used by the military and ICE, though not usually for the right reason. There is a rumor I heard that one of the companies that makes those tents might be based in Eugene, but that is just a rumor.

If you are renting skid mounted AC and generators, cables and spider boxes, just be sure the owner is OK with getting them dusty. That will be in the fine print on the contract. The problem comes when that fine print appears at the last moment. And you end up with a large cleanup fee, or end up having to buy the equipment outright after bringing it back ruined. YMMV
Last edited by some seeing eye on Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:28 pm

I asked so I could *maybe* give you better advice. Now I know you have no clue as to how things work out there.

Alright first-timer, in years past there was a place called HELL STATION. It's the BRC Fuel Depot, its where a lot of the burners with the big generators and mutant vehicles and flame throwers buy their fuel.

The following is how it has worked years prior, I am no way a BMorg official nor do I know if this is actually the way things are: You can pre-register with them so they know who you are when you show up to activate your account. Or, if you don't pre-register you'll have to tell them who you are when you show up to buy fuel. You literally show up and buy gas/diesel/propane with a charge account paid by credit card. You can also arrange to have daily fuel deliveries to your camp. It's really quite simple. Or at least has been, it may be different this year... YMMV

It's not cheap but nothing about Burning Man is.
Also worth considering is dollar cost vs. time/energy spent trying to solve a 'problem'. Is it more economical to buy the convenient fuel at high dollar or bust your balls and stress out about whether or not you can bring your fuel tanker truck to a very regulated event you literally know next-to-nothing about?

My real advice is this: Go to fucking burning man and get a clue so you have some context as to how shit works out there. Then, after you have seen it, start taking on huge responsibilities like managing aspects of large-scale camp/art production.

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Sham » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:41 am

Pappachuck, please let us know where you'll be camped so we can catch the big show.

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Meat Hunter » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:01 am

In prior years, for those theme camps who made prior arrangement/scheduling with BMO and who need larger amounts of fuel, in the past HELL STATION had large fuel trucks and they made deliveries direct to theme camps.
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Ratty » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:26 pm

Sham, I thought you were going to post one of the mishaps. MVs or motorhomes burning to the ground. But thanks for that video. I wasn't there in 2007. Quite the spectacular burn.
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some seeing eye
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by some seeing eye » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:33 pm

My guess is that the fuel plan will be ready for the Theme Camp Summit. Other sources are the placement newsletters, some of the old fuel information has been depreciated so searching burningman.org for fuel then looking at google cached (outdated) pages, and reading the draft EIS.

The context is that a wildfire in the camping areas is one of the most likely scenarios that would permanently end the event, cause significant loss of life and it would be psychically traumatic to the community. So the rules are there for a reason. I would expect fuel rules to only get stricter.
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by maladroit » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:44 pm

https://burningman.org/event/black-rock ... l-program/

Anything not covered on that page means you have to figure out something special, and since you're not special, the answer will be no.

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Token » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:10 pm

BTW, Crude Awakening Burn was a paltry 900 gallons of expired JP8 donated by NASA.

Think what we could do with 5000 gallons!!!

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by pappachuck » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:23 pm

I already figured out multiple solutions. Bringing a truck was just the cheapest.

The fire would be more like this:
https://youtu.be/jRbYWML8EO8
https://youtu.be/Qqpb-JmLAqk

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by Sham » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:29 am

Pappachuck, have you investigated running an electrical line from the tiny hamlet of Gerlach, just down the road? I'm no electrical scientist, but looking on a map it seems to be a pretty clear shot right into the back side of the town. Just the money saved on the ticket for the fuel truck driver would probably cover the cost of electricity. You might even be able to convince a local resident of the town to let you plug into an outlet on their back porch.

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Re: Fuel Question

Post by ygmir » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:01 am

Sham wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:29 am
Pappachuck, have you investigated running an electrical line from the tiny hamlet of Gerlach, just down the road? I'm no electrical scientist, but looking on a map it seems to be a pretty clear shot right into the back side of the town. Just the money saved on the ticket for the fuel truck driver would probably cover the cost of electricity. You might even be able to convince a local resident of the town to let you plug into an outlet on their back porch.
or, remember some years ago, "Karl Von Hesse" and the "power to the playa" project? the subterranean static differential power generator? They were connected with Mr. Jellyfish and "Ein Hammer". I saw a couple of their "power ports" scattered about the playa....As I recall "power to the playa" was a thread related to "Ein Hammer", running concurrently? Been some years ago.
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some seeing eye
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by some seeing eye » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:33 am

Fuel cells is the way to go! You can run them off hydrogen or ethanol most commonly. The beauty is that they are extremely quiet and produce water as a waste product.

They are considered the next "engine" for vehicles. and eventually there will be a surplus of used ones to tinker with. We had a 5KW one for about $15 a W all in. Part of our plan was to make a power plant by filling a container skid with them, about 100KW for a 40'. We were famous as one of the largest venture failures in our area because our CTO was covering up that the product degraded too fast.

The beauty of the system is that it can heat water, so perfect for your showers!

Image

To be most efficient you could use liquid hydrogen. That would give you the most bang for your buck.

Here is a liquid hydrogen dewar (vacuum bottle) for refrigerated gases.

Image

(BTW diesel generators are used on film sets. A standard brand is the MQ WhisperWatt. They are about 10dB quieter than a Honda 2000i. Your neighbors will thank you.)

I think Sham is on the right track, just lay a cable from the NV Power Empire substation. Or do a contract with a private landowner nearby to drill a geothermal well. It will only take about 10 years to get a permit.
Last edited by some seeing eye on Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fuel Question

Post by XPTom » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:22 am

some seeing eye wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:33 am

To be most efficient you could use liquid hydrogen. That would give you the most bang for your buck.

Careful with the ideas... Next question from the OP will be can I drive my own liquid hydrogen truck to the playa?
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