Radical Exclusion

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jhimbo
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:09 pm

Schtev wrote:I personally think radical inclusion is more about not turning a person away just because they're a certain colour or have different political views or are too old or whatever. Radical inclusion can't negate practical reality, and the practical reality is this thing costs money to organize and maintain. A lot of money. The only way you could possibly make it free for everyone would be to DRASTICALLY reduce the population size to a point where the necessary annual expenses could be reliably secured via fundraisers and donations alone, and then you end up excluding a bunch of people anyway because you have a much much smaller population limit.

As for transparency, sure. Nothing wrong with more transparency. But frankly I think you want that transparency because you feel there was some sinister reason for your exclusion, and you don't even acknowledge the possibility that maybe they just didn't like your essay or something. Demand exceeds supply, so they've gotta draw the line somewhere.
I want that transparency for several reasons; probably the same ones you would want transparency for.
Admittedly, I was under the assumption that low-income tickets were based on one's income, not how elegantly they wrote an essay. So some anonymous person denied me because they didn't like my essay? Ya, I have a problem with that.

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:13 pm

jhimbo wrote:
DrewDubious wrote: Well, not directly... But when you try to get a low income ticket, I am sure you realize those are only available because the rest of the people pay full price... it's not like the low income tickets holders cost the event planners any less...
Are you under the impression that this is a non-profit event? Hardly.


WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in china? :?:

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by gaminwench » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:14 pm

There is, no doubt, some complicated and mysterious rubric that determines the fate of a low income application. I don't know what that is, but I'd guess that an aggressive, accusatory, gimmee approach in the essay would hinder approval.
Low income was determined long ago; why do you bring this up now?

and as for judging you ...

you wrote the words, we're left to infer.

Sounds like your words have led folks to infer that you're either looking for a hand out, a troll, or clueless.

Have you been to Black Rock City?

Based on past years ticket sales, there will be tickets selling for less than face next week; possibly even gifted.
(Although I'd doubt that anyone would gift to someone with your negative attitude).

There is a world wide burner community that exists year-round. It costs one nothing to participate in that community.
Last edited by gaminwench on Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DrewDubious
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:15 pm

gaminwench wrote:; possibly even gifted.


That's how I gots mine! :D

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gaminwench
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by gaminwench » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:18 pm

Ah, but you were participating (at least on eplaya) BEFORE you acquired a ticket!
"the prophecies of doom were better last year" trilo

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TT120
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by TT120 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:20 pm

Ok everyone, relax.

Jhimbo, you have to understand that we have seen hundreds of troll posts that look exactly like your first post. They come in, complain about one thing or another, cause a big ruckus and then are never heard from again. That's what your first post looked like. If you're not a troll, then I apologize for calling you one. You will however, need to have a little bit thicker skin to survive here. We like to see an introduction as a first post so we can get to know you a little. You wouldn't walk into a large party where nobody knows you and start complaining about the brand of liquor they're serving or the fact that they're charging more than you think they should for it.

This board has many people here with many different points of view. Some don't like lots of things the BMORG does and some do. You're going to get lots of different opinions on every subject you can think of. If you want to have an adult and sometimes heated discussion about something, then knock yourself out.

Again, I apologize for calling you a troll.

Carry on.
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jhimbo
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:21 pm

stew wrote:Wait till thursday before the man burns, I'm sure you'll find a $70 ticket on eplaya then. :wink:
It is true that prices drop in a big way, and even when BM claims "sold out," there will be an excess of tix just prior to the event...
Food for thought.

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:22 pm

jhimbo wrote:
stew wrote:Wait till thursday before the man burns, I'm sure you'll find a $70 ticket on eplaya then. :wink:
It is true that prices drop in a big way, and even when BM claims "sold out," there will be an excess of tix just prior to the event...
Food for thought.


lol. just ate, thanks tho! :lol:

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by trilobyte » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:32 pm

I'm sorry to hear that you're feeling excluded, or that you somehow feel entitled to a free or deeply discounted ticket to Burning Man.

Burning Man's not cheap or affordable, even with a low income ticket. Radical inclusion in this case would mean that everyone is welcome to either self-reliantly find and earn the money to purchase the ticket (if one were still available at the time), or to apply for the program. Just like any program with more applicants than available tickets, not everyone gets to receive one.

Once at Burning Man (or any number of other regional events and gatherings around the world), everyone's welcome (and encouraged) to participate in the community.

I'm also sorry to hear that times are tough for you. Start planning and saving now, and hopefully you'll be able to make it all work out for next year. Ticket info should be released by the holidays, with ticket sales hopefully happening at the beginning of next year. Hopefully your financial situation improves and the expense of tickets and preparation are mere trivialities for you, but if not you have lots of time to plan so that you don't have to pin all your hopes on a low income application approval.

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by gaminwench » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:37 pm

And, in the meantime, you could consider getting involved in your local burner community.
You could participate on eplaya.
Then you'd be included, before the event even happens. :D
"the prophecies of doom were better last year" trilo

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:09 pm

By the way, if you think there's a viable way to make Burning Man free for everyone, this is your thread, lets hear your idea!
As for the "transparency" about low income ticket delegation you want - might I remind you Burning Man isn't a government agency. It's a privately owned venture that owes you nothing and doesn't have to show you any stinkin' badges.

It's a party. There's a cover charge at the door to pay the bills. It's that simple.
If you want to come in and play, but don't want to pay your share, then you are asking me to pay for you.
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jhimbo
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:22 pm

TT120 wrote:Ok everyone, relax.

Jhimbo, you have to understand that we have seen hundreds of troll posts that look exactly like your first post. They come in, complain about one thing or another, cause a big ruckus and then are never heard from again. That's what your first post looked like. If you're not a troll, then I apologize for calling you one. You will however, need to have a little bit thicker skin to survive here. We like to see an introduction as a first post so we can get to know you a little. You wouldn't walk into a large party where nobody knows you and start complaining about the brand of liquor they're serving or the fact that they're charging more than you think they should for it.

This board has many people here with many different points of view. Some don't like lots of things the BMORG does and some do. You're going to get lots of different opinions on every subject you can think of. If you want to have an adult and sometimes heated discussion about something, then knock yourself out.

Again, I apologize for calling you a troll.

Carry on.
Wow, I hear you. I didn't think of it like that. I clearly should have thought that first post through before posting. Thank you for pointing out proper etiquette. I can totally see that I made a terrible introduction. I apologize for not approaching more mindfully. Honestly I was blowing off some steam, and didn't think many folks would take interest, even.

I really didn't come on here to bother anyone, just really frustrated I can't go.
Last edited by jhimbo on Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by Sundial » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:30 pm

jhimbo wrote:Honestly I haven't posted much on boards, and was blowing off some steam
Man have I got a thread for you...
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... ammit+bill
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by Drawingablank » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:59 pm

First - 11k may or may not have been over the threeshold.

Second - writing an interesting essay probably counts at least as much as income.

Third - I have no doubt that there were far more applicants than low income tickets available. Not every applicant can get one.
So it may very well have nothing to do with how you wrote the essay or your income.
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CornMan
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by CornMan » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:15 pm

Low income application - things to consider including:

-Why you are low income
-Why your low income status doesn't make you a bum
-How you are going to contribute to making the event better
-People who depend on your being there
-Projects that you are excited about doing/helping
-What your contributing means to you
-How you contribute during the regional season
-How you hope to contribute next year when you're not low income
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by ygmir » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:19 pm

jhimbo wrote:Thanks, ygmir, I always appreciate a mindful response.
I get the radical self-reliance; and of course if I were to find a ticket, that is just the beginning of the journey, there is a lot more to survival in that environment than just showing up, and I do understand that it is going to cost a lot more and require significant participation...
That point is well taken, tho I do not believe "radical self-reliance" trumps or negates "radical inclusion" nor "gifting" nor "decommodification."

In any event, seems the 10 Principles should be more than a self-congratulatory pat on the back, to be ignored when the questions get tough.
Anyone into mindfully discussing the aforementioned topics, I am all ears.

ygmir, this event IS Burning Man, the very essence of the concept, and everything else the community does outside of the event is peripheral. Valid yes, peripheral for sure. One should experience the event, to really be part of the community, no? Otherwise, it is like saying you can't be a Senator cause you don't have enough money, but you CAN be part of the "Senator's Community" if you watch from afar. Seems a tad silly. We don't want to pretend to be part of the BM community, or live vicariously through forums and chats; we actually seek inclusion to the main BM event. Not too radical a concept imho.
We want to go to BM, the event, not meet up later and celebrate the event which we were restricted from.

Maybe BM should be free for everyone, and a radical new method of funding the event discussed. Now THAT would be radical inclusion.
Maybe there should be some transparency with low-income tix, as that system clearly failed me (and I am sure many others).
Maybe, just maybe, we can actually have a dialogue about it all, without me being called a troll. I am sorry if my quest for understanding is interpreted by you as flaming; sorry for the karma you are dealing with, not for my questions.
Please don't bother calling me names or babbling about "sour grapes." I am seeking mindful conversation and understanding (trolling is something else entirely, look it up if you don't understand); and as I said in my first post ever, that this is also sour grapes, sure. We all get that. No need to keep saying it, or you might risk appearing to be a redundant individual, and I am sure that is not the case.
and see, Jhimbo, I feel you have it backwards:
"the event" is a culmination, if not celebration, of "living the dream" or "burning" all year round, for many of us.
Yup, it's super, and grand and "off the scale", but, it's not the end all, be all. It sort of shows us what's possible.
But, many live it, live the principles, to the best of our ability, every day. We go, to see friends, and be inspired. But, if the event vanished, many of us would still "do it" and find ways to be with eachother. It can truly be a family. Dysfunctional, maddening, and lovable family.

Some folks can't go every year. Some here on eplaya, have only been a time or two, some never. And yet, year after year, contribute here and in the whole world.

It'd be nice if we all got free icecream. But, we don't.
Life is not fair, never intended as fair.
Even our founding document ("our" being U.S.A.), wise at it is, allows us "the pursuit.......", but no guarantee of success.

There are a myraid of ways, to raise the money, to get to BRC. Many, many here are very poor, yet find ways to put it together.
And yeah, when you prove yourself, and become a know quantity, some folks get help from others, even complete strangers.

I hope you make it, and, I hope you make it "on your own", for the taste will be truly sweet.

good luck
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by Eric » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:13 pm

Just a quick note on going next year - if you can earn & put away $25 a week between now & early January, that will give you roughly $500 (20 weeks), which is more than enough to cover a ticket. You will need a credit card to buy a ticket, so get the money saved & put it on a pre-paid credit card, then don't touch it until you enter the race for a ticket. Not everyone who tries to get one will (bigger demand than supply, especially in Jan), but you have way more of a chance than with the Low Income program. Remember that Low Income, while sounding great, is also a bit of a ticket-trap - if you apply for one you can't try to get a ticket any other way except through a third party.

As for reasons you didn't get chosen - I can give a completely unofficial guess (personal opinion): I have a feeling that income is only a small part of what determines who gets one. Like CornMan pointed out above, there are a lot of variables, but I have a feeling that the information they gather from the essay about who you are as a person and what you're going to contribute to the event would be as big of a deal as how much you make, if not bigger.
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by gyre » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:32 pm

The Ticket Overlords specifically will give no other guidance beyond what is posted, even though it would make things much easier for them.

Read what they say, then guess.
Or, send them everything.
That's all you can do.

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