Green Forward

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:25 am

There is some controversy over ethanol use:

"Do you get more energy out of biofuel than the fossil fuel energy you
> put in?
> There is a huge debate over the energy balance of making ethanol or
> biodiesel out of energy crops, with David Pimentel and Tad Patzek
> presenting negative energy balance for all crops based on current
> processing methods, i.e., it takes more fossil energy input to produce
> the equivalent energy in biofuel."

More at:
http://elizabethlogan.blogspot.com/2006 ... versy.html

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:07 am

Regardless of whether or not the current energy balance is negative, neutral or positive it does support the building of the infrastructure, which should eventually be better than petrolium. Short term it will have little effect, negative or positive, but long term it gives a slightly better option.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:21 pm

The way things are set up now, yes, biofuels are energy-negative. But as soon as more producers come online, and trucks have to travel less distances to get it distributed, I think we'll see a turnaroud. Obviously wheat-based fuel that only travels 180 miles from East Oregon will be more sustainable than corn-based fuel that comes from Missouri, Kansas or Indiana.

phil · Post by **phil** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:17 pm

Popular Mechanics had an article on alternative fuels in May. Here's the section on ethanol:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... tml?page=2
Executive summary: Relying on corn for ethanol requires 675 million acres to replace our annual gasoline and diesel consumption of 200 billion gallons. In addition to acreage, there's pesticides and fertilizers (both generally petroleum based), transportation of seed corn, pesticides, fertilizers, the produced corn, and the ethanol, the cost, maintenance, and fueling of the tractors, trucks, and harvesters associated with the 675 million acres of corn, and refineries. There are now 95 ethanol refineries in existence producing 4.5 billion gallons, and there are another 40 refineries scheduled for completion by 2008, which will increase production to 8.3 billion gallons, still short of the needed 200 billion gallons of current consumption.

The studies on whether ethanol is energy positive or negative are too wildly variable for any knowledgable decision - some include depreciating the equipment, some include transporting the fuel to the farm - there's just too much disagreement to have a way to make the determination. Our government, though, assures us that the refining of ethanol _is_ enerty postitive. And you know we can rely on our government's assurance.

I recommend reading the entire article which begins on
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... tml?page=1
and which finds that electricity is the cheapest energy resource at May 2006's prices.
http://media.popularmechanics.com/docum ... e-e852.pdf

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:43 pm

I'll have to check whether cornstalks can also be utilized to produce ethanol, but my feeling is they can. The corn grain itself can be used for biodiesel and the rest of the plant refined into ethanol. Furthermore, biofuel crops don't necessarily have to be completely pure monocultures; as I understand it, woody plant material can be utilized to create ethanol.

<b><i>Edit: Just did a quick Ask.com search, and yes, cornstalks are utilized in the production of ethanol.</b></i>

This means that two types of fuel can be gleaned from one crop, including the weeds...as well as scrap wood, sawdust, milling industry leftovers. The balance is, mulch would suffer and we'd have less resource for OSB and pressboard.

I made a point about the PMU (pregnant mare urine) farms. They have a herd of horses, sometimes hundreds, already in place. Farms across Canada are shutting down and rescue societies are mobilizing, but they can only do so much and admittedly, the mares weren't bred to be riding horses. They weren't really socialized, never mind trained to go under saddle or draw a carriage: they were intended to be barefoot and pregnant and produce progesterone-laden urine. Oftentimes the foals resulting from the mares' pregnancies would be sold off to killer buyers who turned aroud and sold them to slaughterhouses.

What I was getting at was, if the PMU farms were converted to produce organic fertilizer for 1) Organic produce and 2) Biofuel crops, they would retain those horse herds already in place and could keep the foals, because horses produce manure year-round with or without need of pregnancy, so they could keep the male foals as well. The horses would just produce organic fertilizer. The farmer could even grow fuel crops using the manure his herd put out, and diversify his product stream. He would only need to feed the horses and sell crops for the fuel industry. Other livestock ranchers could utilize the same model. Pigs, cattle, etc., produce fertilizer, too.

Admittedly, it would take a phase-out/phase-in period where we wean ourselves off petrofuels and onto biofuels. It won't happen overnight, but say...try for a full changeover to domestically-produced fuels so that we can divorce ourselves from OPEC dependency? How does 15-20 years sound?

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:03 pm

Sorry, double-post...

Here's the article I cited:

http://www.tylerpaper.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15079698

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:39 pm

One of my favorite quotes is by John Maynard Keynes the reknowned Economist, and I only mention it because I'm drunk is:
"In the Long Run,
We'll all be dead."

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:36 pm

In reference to the manufacture of alternatice fuel:

I was under the impression that if something other than cornstalks were used that you would get 5 times the needed materials and in alot less time. Problem is the fiber was BANNED in 1937. I do not know why. I do know that Dupont patened a new chemical around the same time.

If our "elected?" leaders would consider using the BEST crop for materials than I do feel that production would be alot more sensible.. maybe even profitable. But alas what people went to jail for NOT growing in the past puts you in jail for growing now.

I think it was Jello Biafra that first enlightened me to this and the book title was The Emporer Wears No Clothes. The book title may be a little off since I haven't read it it many years.

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:56 pm

The reason that hemp was banned in 1937 is because of a massive public relations campaign run by Randolph Hearst and his vast newspaper empire ( see the classic movie "Citizen Kane") Hearst had invested in forest land to provide paper for his newspapers. Hemp, which is a superior fiber to wood pulp, was threatening to devalue his investments.
And besides, after prohibition was recalled, the Untouchables needed something to do.
Maybe someday the sheep will look up, and burning man will be part of that.
Insight IS God.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:48 pm

Hemp was alive and well along roadsides up to the late 40's ;>( Then it become to imbred and lost it's kick. Doby doby do

Post by **AntiM** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:53 pm

Argh. Hemp and cannabis are not the same thing, never were. Sure, they're close cousins, but one ain't the other.

Larry was burning roadside hemp out of his parents' hollow as late as the 80s.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:44 am

skygod wrote:The reason that hemp was banned in 1937 is because of a massive public relations campaign run by Randolph Hearst and his vast newspaper empire ( see the classic movie "Citizen Kane") Hearst had invested in forest land to provide paper for his newspapers. Hemp, which is a superior fiber to wood pulp, was threatening to devalue his investments.
And besides, after prohibition was recalled, the Untouchables needed something to do.
Maybe someday the sheep will look up, and burning man will be part of that.
Insight IS God.

Yes.. that jogged my memory some.. Hearst along with Kimberly/Clark et al had LARGE timber holdings and the Duponts just patented a wood sulfide process. New equipment promised to put hemp back on the top as a cash crop. It had to be BANNED for profits. In the past hemp being the strongest natural fiber was used for almost all of our textiles and paper. Unless we do some radical reorganization of bogus legislation that has been passed we will face obstacles with living green.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:48 am

AntiM wrote:Argh. Hemp and cannabis are not the same thing, never were. Sure, they're close cousins, but one ain't the other.

Larry was burning roadside hemp out of his parents' hollow as late as the 80s.

If memory serves the one can't be used to get "high".. tho a perfect option for making paper that lasts, making fuel, obtaining more protein for the seed than soybeans etc etc. But why arent we using it? Corporate rulers will not allow it, the oil barons have taken patents and sit on them doing nothing. I fear with the next "energy crisis" some of us may be forced to have stills to make our own fuel. Than we will goto jail like people in the past that just wanted to make some booze. Though in the past you could also goto jail for not growing pot. During the birth of our nation it was necessary for our independence, we had to supply our own needs rather than get stuff from England.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:50 am

unjonharley wrote:Hemp was alive and well along roadsides up to the late 40's ;>( Then it become to imbred and lost it's kick. Doby doby do

I think it may be quite the contrary.. not sure since I'm kinda young. From what I understand what I hypothetically may or may not have smoked is quite stronger than what was about in the ol days.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:01 am

Going as far as I could with soy products.. (You can eat only one thing just so long).. I have discovered Manitoba Harvest ( Hemp Foods and Oils).

/
I eat green so I can control my intake.. A few years back I weighed 247.. I would grunt and suck air when bending or squating to make a lift.. My stomack was in the way.. Then I started eating green and lost down to 225.. I could work hard at this wieght and feel good.

I don't eat any thing out of the barn yard.. So when the apes take over the planet.. I wont have to change my diet. I intend to out live you meat eater by that much.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:59 pm

Toolmaker wrote: But why arent we using it?

We are. It's making a comeback. There are hemp clothing, hemp oil, hemp paper (hi Poppa Wilhelm!), and they never stopped using it for rope.

I would imagine nobody's used it because they think hemp = marijuana which is illegal (for the moment). So it would appear that a re-education campaign is in order. Spread the word that hemp ≠ marijuana.

Ahem. That aside...I'd like to mention that there's another grass that's being used for clothing and it makes wonderful fabric. It's your friend and mine, bamboo! We have a vendor at Saturday Market that specializes in handmade bamboo fibre clothing. It's as strong and even softer than cotton. It feels somewhere between mohair and silk in terms of hand. One of these days I'm going over to her booth and see if I can barter myself a nice bamboo skirt or a shirt.

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:18 pm

unjonharley wrote: I don't eat any thing out of the barn yard..

I, personally, think you aree doing the cow a favor by eating it. Yum!
More ground chuck please.

Post by **AntiM** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:55 pm

Heh, spent the morning running up to a family ranch in Idaho and brought home half a free range beef which I got in trade for the Amish buggy. I bet if I'd asked she coulda told me the calf's name.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:25 am

Going back to using lard for hand tapping instead of oil.

Convinced my boss to allow me to test a veggie based oil for coolant in one of the milling machines used for plastics.

Trading in my Chevy 2500 for a Diesel truck this weekend that I will modify to run on veggie oil. I use the Aveo for most travelling now, and with the slight modifications I have made I get 36MPG.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:01 am

Toolmaker wrote:Going back to using lard for hand tapping instead of oil.

Convinced my boss to allow me to test a veggie based oil for coolant in one of the milling machines used for plastics.

Trading in my Chevy 2500 for a Diesel truck this weekend that I will modify to run on veggie oil. I use the Aveo for most travelling now, and with the slight modifications I have made I get 36MPG.

/
Got boil with cutting oil imbeded in my pants. So switched to veggie soap water. That worked fine. Cept in the summer the soap spoiled and I was overrun by mosqitos. Same for Simple Green as a wind sheild washer. Stunk up the car also.

phil · Post by **phil** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:21 am

AntiM wrote:I bet if I'd asked she coulda told me the calf's name.

I was raised on a farm, and we knew the names of our beef. We didn't name the pigs and chickens, though. They were eaten anonymously, I guess. :->

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:39 pm

Just read on the news last night that a lot of car manufacturers are letting their present-model trucks and SUVs go for a song. Huge rebates (average $5000), 0% financing, discounts like crazy.

Sounds like they're ramping up to introduce biofuel-burning trucks and SUVs and cleaning out the gas-burners. Still doesn't excuse the presence of Hummers and Tankigators.

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:48 am

I'm trying to build a house in Twentynine Palms (I know it's hot but Great-grandma left me a lot there)
I just found out a cool thing! If I put solar panels on it I will get immediate savings on my PG&E bill, and the cost of the panels will be amortized over 30 years of mortgage payments.That's like free money! Especially since I plan on being dead before the mortgage is ever paid off.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:21 pm

Just noticed the other day, I have been green on this for as long as I can remember.. I do not use dish soap.. I have always scalded my dishes.. First wash them in very hot water with a brush.. Next scald them.. They dry almost instancely when the hit the room air..

Also just one less thing I have to buy or take camping..

Fat SAM · Post by **Fat SAM** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:45 pm

What do you mean 'scald' them? Just dip them in boiling water to sanitize them?

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:17 pm

I eat off of old newspapers.
That has to be some kind of green.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:18 pm

Fat SAM wrote:What do you mean 'scald' them? Just dip them in boiling water to sanitize them?

\/
Guess the word scalding in from the yesteryears.. I use a tea kettle or when camping the coffee pot..

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:22 pm

skygod wrote:I eat off of old newspapers.
That has to be some kind of green.

\/
Glad to see your paper trained.. What ya think of me rolling one up and smack your nose??

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:51 pm

unjonharley wrote:
skygod wrote:I eat off of old newspapers.
That has to be some kind of green.
\/
Glad to see your paper trained.. What ya think of me rolling one up and smack your nose??

Curmudgeon!

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:06 pm

I'm thinking about eating out of breadbowls and off of trenchers (plates made of bread). It'll 1) Keep my baking skills sharp, 2) Guarantee my daily dose of fibre and complex carbs, 3) The damn dishwasher takes an hour and a half to complete a load and pisses off the cat, and 4) Will encourage me to eat smaller portions. Bread tends to be filling.

Green Forward

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