Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Talk about your camp or project's LNT plans (and MOOP problems) here. Discuss cleanup tips. Ask questions or share ideas on what works and what doesn't.
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Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby tattoogoddess » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:28 pm

So this kinda ties all into one question.

This was the first year for blood bath and beyond. Really a huge ass semi cluster fuck of a trial run haha. We did not have nearly enough evap for our camps water, our kitchen was way to small, to much trash to. So a few questions-

When working at dmv they had a paper bag specifically for compatibles. Like food, certain plates and utensils. If we do bags like this next year, are we able to take them some where in brc to have them composted? Or can they be burned in the big burn piles at 3 6 or 9? we had almost 50 members in camp this year and we are thinking we will grow next year.

Gray water- we had way to much to handle in a good manner. We want to have water brought in and pumped out this next year. What is the best company and does anyone know how much it would be to pump out 1000-1500 gallons? along with pumping in that much? We are asking now cause of calculations of next year costs.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby lemur » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:38 pm

no....staff compost is taken to the DPW depot (or some other place where gen public isnt meant to go) and only staff people with dept handed-out photo staff laminates can take things there.

youll need to pack out any compost.

burning it in public burn barrels is surely frowned upon...


as for gray water, you can get gray water tanks and pumping service from the on-site contractor, usually united site services.

they are bigass tanks and for a small camp of about 30-40 people you may never need to pump it out all week long.

Image

they look like this..


you can run a sump pump/pump of some sort to get the water in to it..... or just dump it via bucket..
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby lemur » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:45 pm

no idea on costs.


i think the potable water tank we use is 200 gallons ..... maybe 100. (i am bad at guessing sizes of that stuff) (its in the picture)

the gray tank is pretty big but can fill up quickly (especially if people are treating it as the 'dump shower water and tons of other things in here too!!!' tank)

our camp has ranged from 150-250 over the years and our potable water is used for kitchen use, cleaning, cooking and minimal water drinking through the week..... we dedicate one tank to kitchen gray water and have a seperate tank for showers.....

our schedule for refilling potable and emptying gray water is every 2-3 days.


scale to your camp size...plan accordingly... and add in some 'oh crap we needed an extra fill/pump' buffer space... its better to have paid for services you didnt exactly need than to run out of space in your tank.. or potable water
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby MyDearFriend » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:10 pm

I make burlap sacks out of used coffee bean bags (get them free at a local coffee house) and fill them with my burnable trash. The burlap is highly flammable and burns long enough to keep little pieces of burning paper from flying away. Full bags fit nicely in most burn barrels, too. This really reduces our pile of trash to be hauled out, though pre-deMOOPing all our shopping really helps too. Buy every beverage in aluminum cans, which can be recycled in Center Camp.

Kitchen grey water is the worst, which is why I do not cook with water or wash dishes in BRC. I spray my dishes with vinegar water and wipe them clean with paper towels, which then get burned. Disinfected and de-greased; good enough.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby BBadger » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:21 pm

MyDearFriend wrote:Kitchen grey water is the worst, which is why I do not cook with water or wash dishes in BRC. I spray my dishes with vinegar water and wipe them clean with paper towels, which then get burned. Disinfected and de-greased; good enough.


For cleaning, you need to use detergent to clean your plates and utensils. Vinegar is not a detergent. Its purpose in dish-washing is mostly to remove the soap scum people don't like clouding up their dishes. People add vinegar to their homemade dish washer concoctions and are amazed with their sparkling dishes. Really, the cleaning work was done by the other ingredients in the mix and the heat of the dish washer's water. It just looks nice. Vinegar may even decrease the cleaning ability of the real detergents, as the latter are generally alkaline-based.

You need detergent for its surfactant abilities -- detaching the food and grease from surfaces. Otherwise, whatever you have on there will stay on there and possibly spoil. Disinfecting dishes with bleach or vinegar or other stuff after washing is actually a recent phenomena. Most washing comprised cleaning using surfactants (detergents; soap) and hot water. For the most part, washing with soap and water is sufficient. The converse is not true: simply disinfecting is not sufficient. Some people even spray down their dishes with bleach thinking it's good enough. Then people get sick and learn their lessons. You can't rely on these topical solutions to do the cleaning, even if you wipe them down, because they can't separate the food and grease from the surface.

This is to anyone in general:

If you're using too much grey water for washing, you need to consolidate your dish washing. I know how it is in camps: people individually clean their own plates and utensils, etc. because it sucks to do other peoples' dish washing. So rather than having one large load that does 30-40 plates and a hundred utensils at a time, people individually wash off and rinse their plates and utensils, using a quart or two each time. It adds up.

Instead, have people scrape their dishes and then do a minimal wipe-down in a water tub while the food on the surface is still soft. It doesn't matter what kind of gross-ass food shit is in that water tub; it's just there to remove the large matter. You don't even need much water, maybe like 1-2 gallons for everybody's dishes. You can put some detergent in here too (a few drops) just as an added measure. For people who don't want to touch that gross-ass water, they can use gloves and a sponge on a wand. The point of this stage is to allow dishes to build up until it is time to do the washing, but prevent stuff from sticking. If you're the type who can't stand seeing a counter full of dirty dishes, you need to get over it, as it wastes water and money for the sake of a clean counter.

When you've accumulated all the dishes to be washed for the night, or two nights, ready a tub of hot water and detergent. Now you scrub down the surfaces and put the clean, but sudsy, dishes into the rinse basin. You're just here to use the soapy water to clean up the surface of the dishes. You'll use 2-3 gallons of water for this. Not much.

The person manning the rinse basin uses a water sprayer to spray off the suds from the clean dishes and puts them on the drying rack(s). It's an assembly line that shouldn't take that much work because most of the scrubbing was done by the people in the scrape-tub. The sprayer gives you some force behind your water, so you won't need as much. Expect a few gallons of water.

If you really want to disinfect, buy some Star San from your local brewing store, put an ounce into a 5-gallon bucket of water -- that you can continue using for an entire year, or at least the burn -- and then after you've rinsed, you dip the dishes into the solution and put them onto the rack wet (do not dry them; they're supposed to stay wet for 1+ minute). It'll be sanitary until someone uses them.

BAM! Now you have all the gross-ass material in 1-3 gallons of water, and the rest is regular grey water. Plus you've done the entire camp's worth of dishes in a single session for little water usage.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby graidawg » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:51 pm

it's worth pointing out, the dishes are there to put stuff on, the food never touches the plate. bacon on the foil it is wrapped in after cooking off playa, noodles in the bowl they come in. the sausages got put on tortilla wraps from the grill. those plates don't need anything more than a wipe down because we don't eat off them. If we did i would suggest paper plates to go in the burlap sack for burning.

Bbadger is right and wrong, sure skanky-ass plates you ate a chilli off of would need more than a wipe down and spray with vinegar water, but you could easily wipe then spray with soapy water then wipe again. Or you could develop an immune system that can cope with a bit of dirt now and then
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby Jax Dee » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:28 pm

Another dish/water saving tip. Skip rinsing. If you've washed the dish off really well you can just set it aside as is to dry, either drip or with towel which is what I prefer so you don't get dust sticking to the wet clean dishes. Rinsing is a largely US phenomena. If you are a stickler for rinsing, then realize that water isn't really dirty, so set aside to then become the next washing water for next batch of dishes, new water to rinse...repeat.

And great tip about the burlap bag. You can stick paper towels, baby wipes, etc. to dry out and put in burn barrel later.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby danibel » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:46 pm

I don't know anything about water being pumped in or out.

But for foodwaste - two things. You can bring a dollar store mesh laundry bag and put the wet food in it, hang it over a tarp or black garbage bag that has been split open (for the drips), once dry you can just get rid of the stuff like other garbage, but without the wet icky mess.

Or - you can bring a few (we bring one for camp of 30-40) 5 gallon buckets with tight fitting lids and just drop the slop into those and compost it when you get home. The only drawback (besides having to haul the buckets) is that people find out you have a compost and want to put all their melon rinds in them and fill them up! The only paper products I allow in the compost are coffee filters. If you let people put paper towels or paper plates in them, they fill up way to quick.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby BBadger » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:55 pm

graidawg wrote:Bbadger is right and wrong, sure skanky-ass plates you ate a chilli off of would need more than a wipe down and spray with vinegar water, but you could easily wipe then spray with soapy water then wipe again. Or you could develop an immune system that can cope with a bit of dirt now and then


I must confess, in practice at BM, I'm actually a fan of the last option you mentioned above. It's probably because the camp operates more like a conglomerate than an organized group, and I have just one bowl and set of utensil so I'm not keen on joining or forming some socialized dish washing system. Rinse and wipe, with the occasional wash down mid-week with soap. Also the environment is so dry that I figure little can affect the plate before I use it again, and by the time I'm using the bowl there's already a layer of dust on it.

Though if you have a huge-ass group and actually do quite a bit of washing with lots of water usage, doing it all at once is the way to go.

Jax Dee wrote:Rinsing is a largely US phenomena. If you are a stickler for rinsing, then realize that water isn't really dirty, so set aside to then become the next washing water for next batch of dishes, new water to rinse...repeat.


That's probably correct. I usually avoid the drying part though, favoring the rinsing to remove whatever didn't quite fall off during washing part (i.e. the grime got separated from the plate, but not entirely removed), and feeling that drying at that state might smear whatever has been loosened around (not sure if it's true). Of course that is probably also because there's usually a lot of water available, not so much at a burn.

Good idea on the reuse.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby FIGJAM » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:02 pm

Get a case of the runs from not rinsing the soap of your dishes and report back. :shock:
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby Eric » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:59 pm

Paper plates & bowls all the way (and the plastic bowls my soups come in). I haven't used a "real" bowl or plate out there in years. The only thing I have to wash is a fork, knife & spoon, and those just get a quick sponging off & drying with a paper towel. No mess, no fuss, everything goes into a burn barrel.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby Jax Dee » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:40 pm

FIGJAM wrote:Get a case of the runs from not rinsing the soap of your dishes and report back. :shock:


No seriously. The more common practice is to wash your dishes thoroughly and set on the drying rack or towel off. The suds slide off and dry up. The residue will not make you sick. What do you think leaves those spots on your glasses in a dishwasher? I know this sounds strange to Americans. If you are worried about it then use castille soap. All natural and you can use it for your hair and body too. Saves space on packing for camp trips.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby Jax Dee » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:47 pm

Also my gran washed my mouth out real good back in the day with a nasty harsh bar of heavy duty soap. If that didn't make me sick I doubt some invisible soap scum will :)
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby Bumble » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:54 pm

i personally cant touch wooden cutlery - but these are getting quite popular in Australia - may be a good option to add to paper plates etc & just get burnt - no washing.

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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby BBadger » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:57 pm

Jax Dee wrote:
FIGJAM wrote:Get a case of the runs from not rinsing the soap of your dishes and report back. :shock:


No seriously. The more common practice is to wash your dishes thoroughly and set on the drying rack or towel off. The suds slide off and dry up. The residue will not make you sick. What do you think leaves those spots on your glasses in a dishwasher? I know this sounds strange to Americans. If you are worried about it then use castille soap. All natural and you can use it for your hair and body too. Saves space on packing for camp trips.


That's not a correct comparison. Automatic dishwasher liquids are different than hand-washing detergents. The cleaning mechanism is different, and also the "spots" are not the same thing with the two different cleaning methods.

Automatic dishwashers rely on high heat to do most of the cleaning and to melt oils. They also contain detergents, but not the same mix because of that heat. The detergents also contain chemicals for foam-suppression, water hardness (to some extent), corrosion reduction (due to high heat and other chemicals) and other compounds for breaking down solids. Another important feature is that automatic dishwashers also still contain a rinse cycle. That "residue" is not soap, but more than likely residue from hard-water. That's probably why adding vinegar to these dishwashing solutions produce "spotless" dishes for people.

Hand-dishwashing soap is different. It can't rely on the scalding water found in automatic dishwashers, and therefore contains low-temperature surfactants that must chemically remove solids and oils. The detergents also purposely add foaming additives to purposely help the soap cling to the surface. Without a "rinse cycle" these suds, as well as any solids that did not wash off, will cling to the surface of the dishes and dry.

But for getting sick? It depends on how much is there. One can sometimes taste the remaining soap scum. That may be enough to give people the runs. So you'll have to weigh whether it's worth getting diarrhea or using a paltry amount of water to rinse off the dishes -- or just wipe them down.

I'd personally also rinse because of the way soap is designed to work: it separates the particles from the surface, making it wash off. If the washing tub itself does that for you, by all means use it. But if the water in the tub is pretty funky -- as it often is for a large bunch of dishes -- I'd rather have some clean water wash off whatever might have been left on.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby Jax Dee » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:13 pm

OK. Thanks for the condescending explanation of glass spots. I guess I'm not getting my point across with lighthearted jokes so I'll spell it out clearly. Almost everyone in Britain doesn't rinse their damn dishes and since the entire population isn't suffering any side effects from it my point was save some fucking water and skip rinsing like the Brits. Want it explained? Here: http://www.bbcamerica.com/mind-the-gap/ ... americans/

It was just a tip. I made it clear that most Americans don't get it. I wasn't making something up that might make you sick, I was stating a cultural fact I learned when living in the Commonwealth. Sorry I'm so grumpy BTW. Bad day. Yeah. Anyway, rinse or don't. It's optional.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby BBadger » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:46 am

I'm sorry if that reply sounded condescending. I was a bit overzealous in the explanation of that stuff.

Maybe the Brits aren't getting sick, or maybe nobody has thought to find a causal relationship between soap remaining on dishes and getting diarrhea. Brits also seem to have a culture of "JUST DEAL WITH IT" -- which is good, but may mask complaints. Even so, there are also Brits who are appalled by the practice of not rinsing dishes off, making it out as a vestigial cultural remnant. Who knows, maybe that Fairy washing liquid commercial advertising "rinse free" washing doesn't have the same toxins that would appear in detergents sold across the pond? I'm not about to make that same assumption for whatever is sold here.

Also, while there are people who say they haven't gotten sick from soap remains on their dishes, others have also described getting sick from it as well. Regardless of what Brits do, I'm not going to risk getting the trots just to save a little water. Even at Burning Man, water isn't even that much of a scarce resource. I'd rather use it on rinsing dishes rather than wasting it by shitting it out.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby Jax Dee » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:05 am

Agreed. Which is why I recommended Castille soap. I even use it at home. I don't trust what corporations are putting in our food much less harsh chemicals intended for cleaning.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby AntiM » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:29 am

My:Larry ended up in the med tent with an IV in his arm because our newbs did not do the hot water rinse (03). They also used Clorox wipes to get the food off the dishes. Yikes. We rinse, just in case.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:52 am

paper plates.

duh.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby EspressoDude » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:10 am

rinsing really doesn't "use" water if your recycle or re-use the rinse water as wash water for the next session of washing. If the washing is adequate, all that is in the rinse water is soap. don't toss it, just move the tub to the wash location for the next session; and start with fresh water in the tub at the rinse location.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby BBadger » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:39 pm

AntiM wrote:My:Larry ended up in the med tent with an IV in his arm because our newbs did not do the hot water rinse (03). They also used Clorox wipes to get the food off the dishes. Yikes. We rinse, just in case.


Yeah, wipes just don't cut it. You've actually gotta use detergent to actually clean stuff. It's like using hand-sanitizer on muddy hands -- you're only killing the bacteria on the surface of the grime.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby reader2580 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:06 pm

Each person doesn't have to set up their own wash station at a communal camp. Just set up a communal set of dish pans and have everyone wash and rinse their personal dishes. Now, this doesn't work if everyone doesn't eat at the same time. My solution is simply to use disposable plates and silverware.

You should absolutely rinse all dishes after washing. When I was young a patrol of boys in my Scout troop didn't rinse the soap off their dishes properly and they all got the runs from the soap on the dishes.

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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby FIGJAM » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:17 pm

There is a difference between soap and dish washing liquid.

Dish washing liquid is usually detergent and WILL make you sick.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby Turtleburp » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:34 pm

MyDearFriend wrote:I make burlap sacks out of used coffee bean bags (get them free at a local coffee house) and fill them with my burnable trash. The burlap is highly flammable and burns long enough to keep little pieces of burning paper from flying away. Full bags fit nicely in most burn barrels, too. This really reduces our pile of trash to be hauled out, though pre-deMOOPing all our shopping really helps too. Buy every beverage in aluminum cans, which can be recycled in Center Camp.

Kitchen grey water is the worst, which is why I do not cook with water or wash dishes in BRC. I spray my dishes with vinegar water and wipe them clean with paper towels, which then get burned. Disinfected and de-greased; good enough.


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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby NoAngel » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:28 pm

As far as I know, United Site Services, is the only game in town left for grey water tanks and service. Sani-Hut told me they were no longer supplying grey tanks and service for BRC. If anyone knows of an alternative to USS, it would be great info to have.

For 2013 we were charged $600.00 for tank rental (275 Gallons) plus about $165.00 per pump-out. With 110 people in camp, a communal kitchen used both for camp events as well as main meals, and a shower stall, we were comfortably within capacity at three pump-outs. In years past, with around 60 people and the same set-up, we were almost at full grey tank capacity with only one mid week pump-out.

Until 2009, and with 40-50 campers, we used an "Evap-Fountain" and paid for a pump-out of our kiddie-pool at the end of the week. That did not work very well. Evap ponds don't work unless you are a very small camp.

Order your tank and pump-outs early! Do not expect to even get a returned phone call from USS within the last three weeks before the event.

If you are holding events that require a food permit then you should be familiar with the requirements of the Health Department and should be doing a three stage wash and bleach rinse: http://health.nv.gov/PDFs/BFHS/BM/Burni ... ements.pdf I'm not even going to get into the argument regarding not rinsing! Food poising or a case of the trots on the playa? No thanks!

Paper plates and disposable cutlery are strongly encouraged within our camp. The environmental costs to transport and treat the resulting grey water used for repeatedly washing reusable plates/etc far exceed the costs to deal with a bag of paper plates. Bring them home and compost them if it's important to minimize your carbon footprint.

Love the idea of the used burlap bags for collecting and burning the left-over plates-napkins but we were told that we were not allowed to put anything other than clean wood into the burn barrels this year.
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby EspressoDude » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:02 am

paper plates are just wood pressed real thin (after some grinding and 'processing')
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trilobyte
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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby trilobyte » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:55 am

There's something hilarious and ironic about an individual who railed hard against camps who had all sorts of posh amenities and services now asking about arranging posh amenities and services... but rather than make fun, I'd just like to point out that there as many different ways to burn as there are burners. If someone chooses to run their camp differently, either more or less self-reliantly than you might do it, that's their own business.

There are numerous companies that are involved in the water delivery game. Prior to 2013, anyone in the region could do it. Starting in 2013, the BLM stipulated that these operations would be required to not only pay a percentage of their revenues, but also have a special recreation permit (because they're conducting business that involves federal land). Some companies didn't realize it til it was too late to get that paperwork rolling and ended up not doing water delivery in 2013, but will hopefully get that sorted out in 2014. Some companies went in sans permit/fees last year (and a number of them were fined), and may rethink what they do for 2014. I'd start looking in the spring if that's what you'd like to do.

For greywater removal, you're pretty much looking at United Services. You'd need to call their Reno office and set up an account, and talk to a human to make arrangements for the services you need. You may or may not also need to provide barrels or containers for the water, I'm sure the United Services folks can answer those questions. My understanding is that it tends to be pricey for a small operation, but as camps grow in size it becomes more affordable (on a cost-per-person basis).

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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby trilobyte » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:14 am

Your waste-water issues this year is likely attributed to a couple things. First, people often mistakenly assume that evap ponds are magic, and can easily take care of an unlimited amount of water. As you guys unfortunately experienced, that's not true. You need to give serious thought about the amount of water you're putting into it, and how you can minimize that. Look up stuff like dry kitchens and other minimal-water-use plans, and emphasize with campmates that there should be limits on showers. Your LNT lead can keep an eye on the state of the evap pond, and have him/her declare 'no showers today' if the pond is looking like it needs time to catch up (ideally it should be nearly or completely dry at the end of every day).

Silly as it sounds, even in a small camp I'd put up a sign at the shower to remind people to keep water use to a minimum, and shower no more than once every other day, and that no showers for anybody if the pond isn't cleared the night before. All it takes is for one person in the camp to forget that, and they're using too much water or bathing once or even twice daily to rinse the dust off or to cool down, and you end up with an evap pond that's out of control.

You can also look for ways to soup up or improve your evap operations. A larger evap pond works in some cases, though I've found that you need some kind of broom/squeegee for people to be able to spread out the water if you find it's puddling in one section of a larger pond. You can also improve its efficiency - look into making an evapotron to help aerate the water and improve evap speeds. Another friend has had good luck using towels. He got a bunch from some kind of discount joint (warehouse club, dollar store, etc), and he rolls them up around the edges of his pond. The water will soak into the towel, and air-dry over time. I've never tried that one myself, and it seems like it would be risky if your LNT person isn't watching the pond closely.

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Re: Questions about lnt, gray water removal, large kitchens

Postby tattoogoddess » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:10 am

trilobyte wrote:There's something hilarious and ironic about an individual who railed hard against camps who had all sorts of posh amenities and services now asking about arranging posh amenities and services... but rather than make fun, I'd just like to point out that there as many different ways to burn as there are burners. If someone chooses to run their camp differently, either more or less self-reliantly than you might do it, that's their own business.


I was not aware wanting to take a shower and washing pots, pans, bar mats and shakers was "posh" :?

Really trillo? Get off your damn horse.

We had some camp members this year who did not step up to the plate and help take water back with them when they left, or refused to. We couldn't get the pump trucks to stop so we got stuck hauling out god I don't know how many of gallons out along with moop left behind on top of the camp set up. We were piled to the gills because people didn't step up. So we want to prevent that this year.

We do communal cooking because it gives us a time where we can all sit down and spend time with one another, everyone cooking on their own, one, no community and two leaves the chance of moop spots in the camp of various kitchens. Keeping the kitchen all in one spot cuts down on the moop with in camp. One sink also prevents people from throwing their kitchen water on the playa. I'm in charge of water management. This why we got all green. We had no water ever put on the playa in our camp.
So please don't even go there any say I'm trying to have a "posh" camp. Showers and washing pans are not posh. I'm doing my damn job keeping the moop off the playa and making sure all the water makes its way to wear it needs to be. Any more water and we would have been ducked driving out.

And yes we had two huge ponds, and a towel evap pond, I squeeged it every day, moved water to less full ponds everyday. I was on it. It was just to cool this year to do anything. We even boiled water in a burn barrel.
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