2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Talk about your camp or project's LNT plans (and MOOP problems) here. Discuss cleanup tips. Ask questions or share ideas on what works and what doesn't.
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BBadger
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby BBadger » Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:30 am

maladroit wrote:There's another phenomenon out there I've noticed. Sometimes people will leave a pile of what looks like abandoned stuff, but later on some of them will come back and get it. So it's hard to tell sometimes if they just left it, or if it's staging while they work out shared transportation etc. This is true even for bags of trash, although I've seen small stacks of fairly nice camping gear as late as Tuesday. The official word has been that you just don't take things off the playa that aren't yours, because of that gray area where you just don't KNOW if it's actually been abandoned.


Ugh, this actually happened in our camp. It was the camp's lost and found pile, and being some of the last people to leave -- but not the last -- we were at pains to decide whether to take the heap home, or if others wanted to find their stuff. Most of the stuff wasn't typical MOOP either, like camping chairs, or other crap; our campmates also aren't the kind to leave MOOP either. Then again, you don't want the last person being stuck holding the bag. I for one couldn't fit any big stuff in the car, so I took what small stuff I could.

In the end, we send the remainder of the pile home with someone with enough spare room. Still lots of unclaimed stuff, and it was good that we did take it back just in case. Overall, having an "abandoned goods" camp policy would go a long way to avoid the confusion, and have a person-of-last resort able to take whatever is left if necessary.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby danibel » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:18 pm

A bit OT, but the first of the moop map results are up. Yay. My camp is solid green, so far.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby FIGJAM » Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:04 pm

Looks like the red X's are taking the place of the "black marks" from last year.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby BBadger » Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:12 pm

This is what happens when you combine gypsies* and flower-power hippies into a camp. I'm actually surprised the blog mentioned a camp by name.











*Note: I use the term "gypsies" not to refer to the Romani or any other ethnic group, but the negative stereotype of nomadic squatters and criminals.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby maladroit » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:30 pm

BBadger wrote:This is what happens when you combine gypsies* and flower-power hippies into a camp. I'm actually surprised the blog mentioned a camp by name.


Maybe next year's theme should be "The Blame Game" and the Man is built with an outstretched pointing finger!

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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby BBadger » Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:37 am

We need a "P" ring to name though -- maybe two.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby nixiebunny » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:39 pm

My wife tells me that when they walked the trash fence, three $100 bills were found. My theory is that they were using it as T.P. in Billionaire Camp, and a dust devil tore through when Moneybags was taking a dump.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby skippy3k » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:21 am

Tiahaar wrote:Leaving the playa home of Starship Palomino looking back towards 8:15 and J/K...that pile of bikes in the way background earned an x on the map, otherwise pretty empty.


Hey, we were two camps away from you! Totally off topic, I know. But I recognized the Starship Palomino. This year we were invited to camp in that neighborhood with some friends who had been camping there for years. Best decision we ever made....what a great group of people on that street.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby kiboy » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:12 pm

BBadger wrote:This is what happens when you combine gypsies* and flower-power hippies into a camp. I'm actually surprised the blog mentioned a camp by name.













*Note: I use the term "gypsies" not to refer to the Romani or any other ethnic group, but the negative stereotype of nomadic squatters and criminals.


They're just burning in their own way man. :P

Just kidding, sort of .

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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby xdwingdx » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:46 pm

Reading through all of the comments, Gina posted something very interesting:

2014 is showing the slippery slope that Burning Man is on.

The Burning Man principles include 1. de-commodification, 2) radical self-reliance,3) communal effort, 4)participation, 5)leave no trace, 6)radical inclusion 7) communal effort 8) gifting 9) civic responsibility 10)radical self-expression.

The Burning Man organization supports plug and play camps…because they argue its a way to spread the culture of burning man. But its seems rather than spreading Burning Man’s culture…they are distorting it, bastardizing it, poisoning it.

Instead of building off the notions of de-commodification and communal effort, the plug n’ play camps begin from the idea of PROFITING off of burners.

So Plug N’ Plays exist to PROFIT. And inherent in that model is the total disregard for the principles of de-commodification, self-reliance, inclusion, communal effort, participation…

It seems it hasn’t taken long for so many of these camps (Lost Hotel, Caravancicle and others on the map) to decide –if we can ignore five principles, why not ignore other principles…such as Leave No Trace. Thus, the piles of MOOP.

Whether the people organizing the camps are making money off of $25,000 dues or off $350 dues… the driving force is NOT to set up a participatory community that self-expresses and gifts, but rather to set up a camp from which they can make a PROFIT, the antithesis of de-commodification and gifting.

And some unscrupulous organizers figure that if they are allowed to make a profit with their theme camp.. why not make a greater profit by scamming and not delivering what is promised? Gypsy Flower Power is not the only when were people were scammed. The Burning Man facebook group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/burntheman/) has a number of other examples including Basshenge and an unscrupulous chef who took thousands of dollars for meals that were to be distributed at a camp that didn’t exist.

The question of course is what is the way forward? How dear do we hold our principles? How much are we willing to defend them and uphold them? What are the benefits and costs of allowing plug n’ play?

An artist friend who has worked at plug n’ play camps for the last three years defended them as his means of getting to the playa so he could gift his performances on the playa.

Is there another way to spread the authentic burning man culture to those afraid to make a self-reliant trip to the playa? Is there another way to financially support artists who could otherwise not come to the playa? One idea is for Burning Man to ban theme camps that hire workers and ban theme camps that make a profit…and to ask theme camps to set aside part of their dues to support artists coming to the playa.

What are other ways to make this all work in a manner that upholds our principles and remains inclusive both to those financially unable to support their playa gifts and those who are able to give more financially to the playa?

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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby Elderberry » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:02 pm

Your questions have been asked, answered and discussed to death.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby GreyCoyote » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:07 pm

Elderberry wrote:Your questions have been asked, answered and discussed to death.


JK: I certainly agree with that statement, but these questions are no less valid, and no less important to the Burning masses. Until the BMorg answers, this festering wound simply wont heal.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby tatonka » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:17 pm

maybe we could have some swag that would idenitfy the rich , lets see something like............ a star of david that they could sew on their costume :)
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby unjonharley » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:28 pm

tatonka wrote:maybe we could have some swag that would idenitfy the rich , lets see something like............ a star of david that they could sew on their costume :)


Next you'll want to keep then in there motor couch ghetto
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby Ratty » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:29 pm

Hey we already live in a ghetto. All that's missing is the armband.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby unjonharley » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:38 pm

Ratty wrote:Hey we already live in a ghetto. All that's missing is the armband.

Who's going to moop all that barbed wire??
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby Bless » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:26 pm

K Street ain't lookin' so hot on the second day MOOP map.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby TT120 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:47 pm

I bet they do much better next year.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby 666isMONEY » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:49 pm

TT120 wrote:I bet they do much better next year.


yeah, they'll hire some more slaves, maybe even bring a garbage truck (money turns everything into a commodity)

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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby Eric » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:00 pm

tatonka wrote:maybe we could have some swag that would idenitfy the rich , lets see something like............ a star of david that they could sew on their costume :)


Maybe something a little more creative, and pertinent (seeing as we're Burners)
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby tatonka » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:09 pm

Eric wrote:
tatonka wrote:maybe we could have some swag that would idenitfy the rich , lets see something like............ a star of david that they could sew on their costume :)


Maybe something a little more creative, and pertinent (seeing as we're Burners)
Image



nice ")
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby Lonesomebri » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:13 pm

So do the rich and powerful get the armbands, or are they a force of nature not to be discussed or reasoned with? I know that they are victims, but other than that?
Wasn't moop discussed last year already? Why are we dragging it out into the open again? Moop has been discussed to death, ignored, increased, argued about and solved already, right?

And I realized we don't need a new term for the Sherpas and the Plug and Plays that exploit the event; Moop fits perfectly.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby sparkleBrony » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:18 pm

Lonesomebri wrote:So do the rich and powerful get the armbands, or are they a force of nature not to be discussed or reasoned with? I know that they are victims, but other than that?


No point, they would probably just pay to have a servant wear the armband for them.

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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby Elderberry » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:24 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:
Elderberry wrote:Your questions have been asked, answered and discussed to death.


JK: I certainly agree with that statement, but these questions are no less valid, and no less important to the Burning masses. Until the BMorg answers, this festering wound simply wont heal.


It would heal faster if everybody stopped picking at it already. :roll:
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby Elderberry » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:36 pm

Eric wrote:
Elderberry wrote:Does first camp ever get Xs or black marks? I've never actually checked, but my guess would be no.


They do. The Org is shockingly honest on the MOOP map (this is from 2013):

Good to know.
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby lucky420 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:14 pm

Elderberry wrote:
GreyCoyote wrote:
Elderberry wrote:Your questions have been asked, answered and discussed to death.


JK: I certainly agree with that statement, but these questions are no less valid, and no less important to the Burning masses. Until the BMorg answers, this festering wound simply wont heal.


It would heal faster if everybody stopped picking at it already. :roll:



But it's still gonna leave an ugly scar
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby some seeing eye » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:34 pm

BMORG has a very busy post-playa to-do list. Their life is complicated by the on-playa death.

The various new issues and continuing issues our lightning quick typing fingers think can be solved immediately take a lot of thinking, discussion, going over this year's data and legal work to pop out as the solution sausage.

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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:04 pm

Elderberry wrote:
GreyCoyote wrote:
Elderberry wrote:Your questions have been asked, answered and discussed to death.


JK: I certainly agree with that statement, but these questions are no less valid, and no less important to the Burning masses. Until the BMorg answers, this festering wound simply wont heal.


It would heal faster if everybody stopped picking at it already. :roll:

Agreed, JK.
GC, I've never much liked the llc, but as the years went by I've come to see the constant second-, and third-, and forth- and beyond-guessing as a real problem. It's not that I don't hope steps are taken with Moonshine at least (although as it seems that wasn't a registered camp, there may not be much they can do), but when the whole "burner population" tries to solve problems, the things that they come up with take a lot of time to get there, and aren't really well thought out or original. A huge meta-commitee thing...
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby Elderberry » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:20 pm

lucky420 wrote:
Elderberry wrote:
It would heal faster if everybody stopped picking at it already. :roll:



But it's still gonna leave an ugly scar

That's what plastic surgeons are for. (assuming you can afford one. :wink: :o :shock: :D )
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Re: 2014 Moop Map: Abandoned Items

Postby danibel » Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:24 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:
JK: I certainly agree with that statement, but these questions are no less valid, and no less important to the Burning masses. Until the BMorg answers, this festering wound simply wont heal.



I agree with this and I am waiting for the answer(s). I am not holding my breath, however, because I would like to live to see tomorrow.
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