MOOP Management - glass

Talk about your camp or project's LNT plans (and MOOP problems) here. Discuss cleanup tips. Ask questions or share ideas on what works and what doesn't.
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Mista_Zero
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MOOP Management - glass

Postby Mista_Zero » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:32 am

For 2015 my camp is planning on an interactive piece that involves mirrors and smashing said mirrors. The biggest obstacle I see to realizing this interactive piece is managing the shards of glass that could make their way onto the playa. So far my only ideas are to place tarps down about 10 feet around the mirror and also place 3 walls around the mirror to limit where the glass could go. Obviously, if we cannot figure out (and test) a way to prevent glass from getting onto the playa the project won't go ahead.

Anyone who has experience, insight or constructive advice on this project would share their thoughts I'd greatly appreciate it.
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tatonka
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby tatonka » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:48 am

could tape the back of it , and it should hold most of it together when broken , but slivers will be hard to control
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby silas thatcher » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:54 am

IMHO the miniscule glass shards would not only be impossible to clean up thoroughly , you run the risk of getting an "invisible" piece lodged into a painful area of the foot ... not a great idea in my book, but others may know or have a workable solution... coming from someone who has had one of those "invisible" shards imbedded in my foot and the digging out with a sharp knife and tweezers, i'm gonna say no...

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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby GreyCoyote » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:11 pm

Not sure how this would fit into your plans, but there is a clear contact sheet that is commonly used for lining shelves that might work for you. Laminate the glass between two sheets, and leave about an inch margin of liner hanging off the edge of the glass to allow the front and back piece to seal. At this point you basically have a "mirror in a baggie". It wont be foolproof, but it's a step in the right direction. At the very least it should eliminate most of the shrapnel.

On a different approach, (and please understand that I know nothing about your art idea, so this may be a non-starter), could you eliminate the glass entirely and use a reflective foil? Maybe mount the foil in a sewing hoop or stretcher frame to keep it flat and pristine before the assault begins? This would also have the advantage of reducing the weight you would have to carry in/out, and could mean many more folks get to participate in your art at the same time. I have a feeling it would be cheaper, too, unless you're using repurposed (or free?) mirrors.

Just some thoughts... :mrgreen:
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Melonblue
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Melonblue » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:20 pm

I'm in lines with the others thoughts.

Small shards will be a hazard.

Maybe plexiglass with a silver mirror shine paint glaze or foil as previously suggested.

If true mirror is your ambition, could it be coated in a resin to prevent sharding?

My stomach turned when I thought of hopping around the playa with an invisible shard in my foot for a week.

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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Lonesomebri » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:08 pm

If it's the bad luck associated with breaking mirrors that you seek, just come hang out at my camp for the day.
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Meat Hunter » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:25 pm

You may be able to control larger pieces of broken mirror glass. But, in my opinion, there is no reasonable way that you are going to prevent minute slivers of broken glass from getting on the playa.

It may not happen to you this year, but next year when someone else camps in that location and walks around barefoot, you are going to cause folks some serious misery and injury.

Just my two cents.....

However, if all you need are safe mirrors, it would be quite easy to attach mirror mylar to thin plywood with spray adhesive.

http://www.mirrorsheeting.com

Or:

http://www.tapplastics.com/product/plas ... rrored/256
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby some seeing eye » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:27 pm

You should send a note to the artery (at) burningman (dot) com/org. You might have to give up on your idea, or implement it VR (Oculus Rift etc.)
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby ygmir » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:35 pm

I've seen glass shards fly several feet, if not yards, depending on impact and such.
and it can to up and over, not just straight line out.
It'd sure be great to find a way to not send those little pieces around where folks walk barefooted.
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Jovankat
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Jovankat » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:08 pm

ygmir wrote:I've seen glass shards fly several feet, if not yards, depending on impact and such.
and it can to up and over, not just straight line out.
It'd sure be great to find a way to not send those little pieces around where folks walk barefooted.


I'd be worried about copping it in the face/eye. :shock:

How are you planning on breaking the glass? Does it involve people getting close enough to hit it or are they throwing something? More info would be helpful.

In theatre and film we use "fake" sugar glass that smashes safely but it's not as clear as real glass and applying the mirroring would involve liquids that would probably mess up the sugar. Depending on how good it needs to look you might be happy with foil backed sugar glass. Or maybe you could try to get some car windshield type glass, the kind of crumbles into glass rubble when it breaks rather than shattering into shards, then you could silver it yourself. There are instructions online for that.

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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby maladroit » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:15 pm

You'll get slivers sticking to people's clothing and then falling off at a random distance. You will want to fully enclose the breaking area, it'll be a breaking room. Then everyone going in puts on a full protective suit and mask, which never leaves the area.

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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Elliot » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:31 pm

Mista_Zero wrote:For 2015 my camp is planning...
...
...share their thoughts I'd greatly appreciate it.

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Could you use something like a slide projector or movie projector, and just switch to a slide or film showing glass breaking?
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Eric
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Eric » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:41 pm

Quite honestly it's really hard for me to answer this as a Moderator, because the first thing that comes to my mind hearing that someone has an art project that involves people breaking glass on purpose, on the playa, at a leave-no-trace event, is: "are you fucking kidding me?" The easiest way to clean the glass up is to do what every bar & other camp on the playa does: don't break the glass at all if you can possibly avoid it. I would suggest spending some serious time thinking this project through - remember, it's Burning Man. Everything that can go wrong will, and all your fail-safes will fail as well.
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby gaminwench » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:33 am

I agree with Eric, when I first read this post (before any comments), I felt all of eplaya cringe as one.
We're rarely in universal agreement here, but I'm willing to bet a warm PBR that this is a unifying bad idea topic.

We've (accidentally) broken mirrors in camp; the result was LOTS of playa shoveled into receptacles for removal (and lots of colorful swearing).
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Jovankat » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:05 am

gaminwench wrote:I agree with Eric, when I first read this post (before any comments), I felt all of eplaya cringe as one.
We're rarely in universal agreement here, but I'm willing to bet a warm PBR that this is a unifying bad idea topic.


Yeah but I love that we've managed to come up with some creative suggestions for mitigating the risk despite that.

Working in theatre I see a lot of "impossible" problems solved, many of which were supposedly impossible because of safety concerns. I don't see LNT as being that different to safety issues. I honestly believe that no matter how dangerous (or MOOPy) an initial idea is there is some way to achieve it safely (or cleanly) it's just going to take some more creativity and probably more time/money/effort than it would to do it in it's original form.

Of course sometimes there won't be enough time/money/fucks to give and that will prevent it going ahead but it always seems to be a lack of resources that is the reason a difficult idea dies not a lack of creative solution.

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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby mudpuppy000 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:47 am

Mista_Zero wrote:So far my only ideas are to place tarps down about 10 feet around the mirror and also place 3 walls around the mirror to limit where the glass could go.


If the tarps start flapping in the wind then the glass will go everywhere, also the glass can cut through the tarps if anyone steps on it. Walls around the mirror with no roof sounds like it'd create a glass tornado if the wind blows really hard.

Honestly it sounds awful, maybe an acrylic mirror would work?

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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Tiahaar » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:45 pm

Mista_Zero wrote:For 2015 my camp is planning on an interactive piece that involves mirrors and smashing said mirrors. The biggest obstacle I see to realizing this interactive piece is managing the shards of glass that could make their way onto the playa. So far my only ideas are to place tarps down about 10 feet around the mirror and also place 3 walls around the mirror to limit where the glass could go. Obviously, if we cannot figure out (and test) a way to prevent glass from getting onto the playa the project won't go ahead.

Anyone who has experience, insight or constructive advice on this project would share their thoughts I'd greatly appreciate it.


Oh I got this one. :D Sometime in a past life there was an event where there was a tie-in to a finale where a mirror was broken (something about the reflection doesn't represent the real you or whatever yadayada etc. etc.)

The setup used was a large square wood box maybe 2' x 3' and 4" deep. the front was clear plexiglass (or more likely stronger polycarbonate) and right behind it slid into channels in the box sides was a mirror...you whacked the poly with a mallet, the poly flexed and the mirror inside shattered spectacularly, and fell down in shards completely contained in the box. To reload you tipped the box into a barrel, dumped out the shards, and inserted another mirror. Crazy but yeah performance art 8)
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby maladroit » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:33 pm

That sounds feasible, a sheet of polycarb would probably stand up to a good number of hits.

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Ratty
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Ratty » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:03 pm

Does this art have any roots in Japanese tradition?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagami_biraki
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Jovankat » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:21 pm

Tiahaar wrote:
Mista_Zero wrote:For 2015 my camp is planning on an interactive piece that involves mirrors and smashing said mirrors. The biggest obstacle I see to realizing this interactive piece is managing the shards of glass that could make their way onto the playa. So far my only ideas are to place tarps down about 10 feet around the mirror and also place 3 walls around the mirror to limit where the glass could go. Obviously, if we cannot figure out (and test) a way to prevent glass from getting onto the playa the project won't go ahead.

Anyone who has experience, insight or constructive advice on this project would share their thoughts I'd greatly appreciate it.


Oh I got this one. :D Sometime in a past life there was an event where there was a tie-in to a finale where a mirror was broken (something about the reflection doesn't represent the real you or whatever yadayada etc. etc.)

The setup used was a large square wood box maybe 2' x 3' and 4" deep. the front was clear plexiglass (or more likely stronger polycarbonate) and right behind it slid into channels in the box sides was a mirror...you whacked the poly with a mallet, the poly flexed and the mirror inside shattered spectacularly, and fell down in shards completely contained in the box. To reload you tipped the box into a barrel, dumped out the shards, and inserted another mirror. Crazy but yeah performance art 8)


Clever! You could even made the receptacle that catches the shards big enough that you don't need to emptyit on the playa at all.

I fricken love solutions like this!

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Mista_Zero
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Mista_Zero » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:14 pm

Thanks all. I didn't think there was a good way to manage the glass without investing a lot of resources, but i like the alternative ideas.

Rest assured, no glass will be purposely smashed on the playa.
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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby Bodmin » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:16 pm

In hollywood they used to use sugar based fake glass for stunts. The problem is that once formed it degrades quickly so it may need to be manufactured on Playa. Now they use a resin based product for break-away glass called Piccotex.

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Re: MOOP Management - glass

Postby trilobyte » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:22 am

I'm giving this a nudge over to the Leave No Trace board, since that's a better fit. The year-specific boards are more for posting announcements and updates about the project, and the preparation category is more about project/preparation questions and problem-solving. Since this one is mostly about the MOOP hazards of glass/mirrors, this seems like the right place.

I think others have probably covered it well, but I'll add in my personal opinion as well.. you should really give some thought to alternatives. Aside from the really serious MOOP issues, handling broken glass greatly increases the chances of cuts/injuries for campmates and guests. I understand that there's something visceral and cathartic about the process of smashing or breaking the glass, and that might be a big part of what you're aiming for. If not, then you could look at alternative materials or even pre-breaking the glass at home (then just bring out boxes of shards). If it is, maybe think about other mediums that let you have that visceral physical experience. Fingerpainting on the really simple side, or working with clay, or even going Jackson Pollack style with paint spatters. Or you could get really elaborate and go all "Big Lebowski" hehe

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