On evap ponds...

Talk about your camp or project's LNT plans (and MOOP problems) here. Discuss cleanup tips. Ask questions or share ideas on what works and what doesn't.
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Soliton
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On evap ponds...

Postby Soliton » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:58 pm

First burn, and making plans, etc. Read on the main Burning Man site that evaporation ponds are not advised:

http://burningman.org/event/preparation ... ray-water/

Oops! :oops: That is my plan, and it is a little late in the game for me to construct an evapotron or similar (and going solo, that would really be overkill anyway :wink: :? )
Thoughts on evap ponds?

2nd question: for evap ponds, it seems one of the issues is having/making/keeping a level surface to aid in evaporation. The evapotron design that I have seen does this by using a plywood 'floor' under the tarp. For a small (say, 4' X 8') pond, advise on whether to bring a piece of plywood for under the pond or just using the playa surface? I'm already going to double line it (two sheets of PE sheet) to reduce the chance of leaks. Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance,

Soliton

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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby The CO » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:06 pm

You have plenty of time to build an evapotron or other options. They can be built over a weekend.

Plenty of good info on this thread.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby Jackass » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:45 pm

For one person? Leave water in an open tub all week, whatever doesn't evaporate you pour back in bottles and take with you.
Not a big deal.
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby Roundabout » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:06 pm

Jackass wrote:For one person? Leave water in an open tub all week, whatever doesn't evaporate you pour back in bottles and take with you.
Not a big deal.

Ditto. Get one of those black tubs sold for mixing concrete at a place like Lowes or HD. Those have good surface area and the black adds extra evaporative heat for a while, at least until the tub gets lined with playa dust/mud, and then is no longer black.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby Papa Bear » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:01 pm

From what I've seen, the playa surface is plenty flat for an evap pond - no plywood needed. My camp uses evap ponds to get rid of around 1000 gallons during the event, using just 2x4's, duct tape, black plastic, and a push broom.

That said, I would strongly recommend against an evap pond in your situation (and for most other camps, in fact). The key to an evap pond is making it large enough that the water stays very shallow, keeping the water spread evenly across the surface (that's what the broom is for), and making sure other idiots don't mess with it (treating it as a slip-n-slide,or a place to dump their own gray water). It works for us only because we're extremely committed to doing all of that; plenty of camps have run into trouble by missing on just one of those issues.

I'd focus first on conservation (no need to evap what you don't generate), and then on making sure you have a way to transfer and haul out any water your system fails to handle. You don't want to get stuck not being able to leave because you still have water to get rid of. If you do that, and assume that whatever other system you take out there will at most be an occasional helper, you'll be better off in terms of both preparation and peace of mind.

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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby GreyCoyote » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:26 am

If evaping for just one person, try the towel method: buy yourself a big surplus bath sheet. Dunk it into your treated greywater and hang it up to dry. Repeat. Shouldnt take an hour, tops, per cycle. At the end of the week simply throw it into a trash bag and dispose of it properly. (It'll be gross and disgusting and stiff, but you can name it "Fred" and invite it to dinner each night where it will be indistinguishable from every other burner).

Note this trick takes two towels: one to dry you off (the "clean" one), and one to act as Fred the Evaporator. :mrgreen:
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby AntiM » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:20 am

Roundabout wrote:
Jackass wrote:For one person? Leave water in an open tub all week, whatever doesn't evaporate you pour back in bottles and take with you.
Not a big deal.

Ditto. Get one of those black tubs sold for mixing concrete at a place like Lowes or HD. Those have good surface area and the black adds extra evaporative heat for a while, at least until the tub gets lined with playa dust/mud, and then is no longer black.


They can flip over during high winds, which is No Fun.

And we had to hide ours at night, as it would mysteriously fill up with unknown fluids.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby Ratty » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:23 am

That's the system I use. You just reminded me. I'm going to make a 'lid' for it out of chicken wire and tie some light weight cotton cloth all over it. The ends on the top will blow in the wind and the ends on the bottom will wick up the water. I can easily crimp the wire around the lip of the bus tray. This should speed the evap process.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:24 am

The third in Emerson's trilogy, after Walden Pond and On Golden Pond...
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby trilobyte » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:27 am

I'm giving this a nudge over to the LNT board, since that's a better fit for evap pond discussions.

I would not advise that a first-time burner plan for an evap pond, either. They can be tricky for even seasoned veterans, and if you're not careful it can quickly become a disaster. I've seen baby pools blow away, and even brick-lined baby pools get flipped when the wind kicks up. And AntiM's not kidding about the fluids part, though that can depend a lot on your neighbors.

There's some great advice in this thread, I'd say all of it is worth some consideration.

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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby JayBobBoy » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:41 am

We had a fun competition between three different evaporation contraptions in our camp. One was a traditional Evapotron, another was a crazy variant of the evapotron with a bigger wind fan, and the last was a simple version with towel pieces that hung into the water.

It wasn't even close. The evapotrons are very tricky to use and the conditions/wind patterns have to be just right for it to operate efficiently. They only evaporated a small fraction of the liquid each day. Never enough to stay ahead. The evapotrons required daily maintenance to keep them running and were not terribly effective. They sure are fun to build though!

The winner by far was the simplest method. I stole (borrowed) the idea from here somewhere. Put four tall stakes outside of your evap pond and stretch one of the stretchy cargo nets across and over the pond about 24" above the surface of the water. Get a couple of old towels and tear them into strips about 2" wide. Attach them to the cargo net so they dip the ends into the water. I had about twenty strips total.

The water wicks up the fabric and evaporates really fast. I don't have any measurements, but it took care of the grey water from our shower set up all week long with no fuss. We only had to pack up 5 gallons or so at the end of the event (and I think that was a last minute present from our departing neighbors).
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby asr9754 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:45 am

However big you build your evap station, that's how much water you will accumulate. Campmates and neighbors live by a general rule: People see tub, people fill tub.
So educate your camp mates, hide the pond in the back of your camp, and keep it small. Conservation and good cooler management are way better uses of your time and energy, esp as first-timers.
There's lots of tips on eplaya how to conserve water and minimize ice melt while still living a pretty comfortable life out there.

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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby SageV » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:11 pm

All the stuff the page you referenced says about evap ponds is true. Evap ponds were all the rage back in the day, but eventually they died out because even though they work, the fact that they work encourages people to just put more stuff in them, until you have either a shallow swimming pool or a leak you didn't anticipate. Then you are MOOPing the playa without even knowing it. The other thing is that evap ponds are an attractive nuisance. Neighboring camps will use them as a dumping ground for their greywater, thinking "hey, the sun's got my back, no skin off that other camp's neck."

Also, any evap apparatus that might be an attractive thing to a hippy who is frying who can't tell water treatment from an interactive art exhibit, well that's something to avoid. We had spontaneous pool parties break out in our evap pond (i.e. just pure yuck is what that is). We even had one with a little kiddie pool and an a fountain that would flow down some screen material, but again some zoned out hippy would inevitably yell "a fountain!" and jump into the yuck water, knocking over the whole setup, which I might note one time ended up electrocuting one hippy. Low voltage, so nothing serious, but it sure freaked him out.

So IMHO, don't do evap ponds and don't use any evap apparatus that people might want to jump on, in, or mistake for an interactive art exhibit. It's just an invitation for getting squicked watching some sparkle pony dance around in sewer water. Maybe that's your fetish, but just, ick.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby GreyCoyote » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:25 pm

SageV: as I read that story, the first thing that came to mind was "damn, Sage has got himself most of a big Leyden Jar there, and I've got a portable fence charger that puts-out DC. We need to talk!!!!" :mrgreen:
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby SageV » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:57 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:SageV: as I read that story, the first thing that came to mind was "damn, Sage has got himself most of a big Leyden Jar there, and I've got a portable fence charger that puts-out DC. We need to talk!!!!" :mrgreen:


You mean like a bug zapper for hippies? :)
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby GreyCoyote » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:06 pm

You betcha!

And can you imagine the result when your asshole neighbor tried to sneak a piss in your evaporator? :shock: :mrgreen:
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby caffeineslinger » Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:12 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:You betcha!

And can you imagine the result when your asshole neighbor tried to sneak a piss in your evaporator? :shock: :mrgreen:


This would be oh so funny... but I think it's been busted by those smug smart asses on tv.

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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby Soliton » Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:53 pm

Ok, Great comments everyone - and thank you for sharing the knowledge!

I won't bring an evaporation pond -- and will look at other solutions for my minimal water disposal needs. The pond idea was driven mainly by wanting to take a shower (solar shower or garden sprayer), and it seemed the simple solution. Given that I will have *at most* only about 15 gallons to dispose of over the course of the week, a catchment system and a hanging towel or two will probably do the trick. With practice and care, I'll bet I can even reduce my grey water production to much less than this.

Besides, I really don't relish the idea of somehow becoming the owner of grey water (or other fluids...) from elsewhere :roll:

Soliton

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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby Captain Goddammit » Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:56 pm

I use an extremely simple and 100% effective system. I just dump all my grey water into barrels and haul it back out.
If you were able to haul it all in, you can haul it out. Zero issues.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby Ratty » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:07 pm

WARNING: I've been drinking. Did anyone read in the most recent JRS about sprinkling your grey water on the playa? Yup. treat it with 'a little bleach' and sprinkle it on the ground! I read it and reread it. Nope. I just can't do it. All these years of "only fresh water hits the ground and no puddles". I'm not buyin it. then again, I've been drinking.

Here it is...............How will you dispose of your gray water from your kitchen and shower? We cannot dump greywater directly on the playa. Camps can use small footprint evapotrons, or collect their greywater and take it to one of the RV dump stations along all exodus routes, or contract with United Site Services to let a professional handle the gray water disposal. If you're in a small camp, with minimal dish- and body-washing water, you might choose to treat your gray water: pour it through a filter (like a paint sieve), disinfect it with (teeny amounts of) bleach, then, since it is treated, sprinkle it in your camp to keep down dust.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:41 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:SageV: as I read that story, the first thing that came to mind was "damn, Sage has got himself most of a big Leyden Jar there, and I've got a portable fence charger that puts-out DC. We need to talk!!!!" :mrgreen:

And I just thought something like, "Huh, non-potable showers are not an anomaly then."
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby missmelee » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:52 am

You will undoubtedly find pros/cons to many different ways of dealing with your water. On our first BM adventure we did the baby wipe route and visited Astral Headwash when we wanted our hair-washed once or twice. In our next 4 BM adventures we had our own evap pond. We made a collapsible wood frame (no bottom) and stretched black polyethylene plastic inside of it and up around the edges and stapled it. Our shower drains into this pond. We have about 4-7 people using it in our camp and we have a strict make it quick, every other day use policy that really helps control the water. This also allows it to significantly dry up during the day. We have a broom that we use to push the water around occasionally and some bricks that we put inside to make sure that the plastic is always laying flat. This helps disperse the water evenly for quicker evaporation. We don't shower on the last day and at the end of our week we fold the frame up with the plastic still attached. There's usually only a small amount of water in it at that time which is trapped in the plastic when we fold up the frame. Then we can cut the plastic out and dump it all when we get home.

We, luckily, did not have an issue with strangers using it to dump anything or sneak a shower. We also dumped very minimal water in it from dish washing. Since we're a small camp and had minimal cooking clean up we mostly cleaned our dishes with a spray bottle soap/water mixture which reduces the amount of water needed.

As some others have said, I would avoid investing much in evaporation methods for your first burn.

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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby Captain Goddammit » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:41 pm

No showers on the last day, make it quick, every other day only... that sounds like it sucks!
How could you have had room to carry the water in but not out?
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby GreyCoyote » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:32 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:No showers on the last day, make it quick, every other day only... that sounds like it sucks!
How could you have had room to carry the water in but not out?


Regretably, the grotesque excesses of the millionaire camps have finally trickled-down to the unwashed masses, to wit: Capt GodDammnit is now running a Plug-n-Spray. Sigh....
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby melodiousdirge » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:58 pm

Sorry, drive by posting - someone may have already mentioned some of these. Let me say that I'm a pretty big fan of building projects, even when they serve little purpose, and an evap pond was on my list first year, but I never got to it. After being out there and seeing everyone's ponds, i'm glad I didn't build one, and I never will for the following reasons (most of which are: They are gross):

1) They are gross because they stink - grey water is nasty, especially if you have any kitchen water in there. Nobody wants to smell a 10x10 pool of your garbage juice.
2) They are absolutely fucking disgusting to step in at night - usually unlit, dark, low to the ground, and full of slimy nastiness. Wiping out into someone's evap pond ruins your night.
3) They spray nasty grey water all over the place in a wind storm - self explanatory.
4) They often leak, especially if someone steps in them, trips over the edge, or if you just use a crappy tarp. This makes a big goopy stinky playa mess.

If the "they are gross" reasons aren't enough for you consider this - you are bringing all your water in, meaning you already have enough containers to bring all your water out. I usually bring in 50 gallons of water, have a short solar shower every day, fill coolers with ice every other day, and I generally have one 6 gallon jug of grey water to deal with, maybe two. Even this isn't a big deal because I just pour the water through a filter, add some bleach, and sprinkle it on the roads when i'm done. Not only is this easier and less disgusting than an evap pond, it leaves me without a befouled plastic shit show to clean up when I break down camp.

TL;DR - it's much easier and less disgusting to just haul your water out or treat it and sprinkle on playa.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby The CO » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:01 am

Variation on a pumped cascade.

The MK VIIA evap and its variants can use the same 12v pump as the Figjam cooler, and run 24 hours a day off battery power.
Mine evaporated about 10 gallons a day last year.
Maybe $20 to build in 1 day.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby SourPatch » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:20 am

Since you are flying solo, try to reduce your gray water to absurdly small amounts.
After that, filter your water with pantyhose, add bleach, let it act for a few hours, then sprinkle on the playa at noon.

From BM Website: http://burningman.org/event/preparation ... ray-water/
Filter, treat and disperse small quantities of gray water. This method is only for small camps that already know how to minimize dishwater and body-washing water. If your gray water is both filtered and disinfected, and you don’t form mud, you will be within the rules.So, collect gray water in a container over which you have mounted panty-hose or a paint strainer. Add chlorine bleach regularly.In your own camp space (NOT public areas like roads or shortcuts), use a garden sprinkler-can (or improvised equivalent, even just a spoon) to distribute water very sparsely during the hottest hours of the day. The droplets must be sparse enough that they soak in and dry up quickly, and the surface stays hard.But keep in mind that somebody watching you might think that you are simply sloshing untreated gray water around, so be prepared to explain your careful process.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby melodiousdirge » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:28 am

SourPatch wrote:Since you are flying solo, try to reduce your gray water to absurdly small amounts.


It's really not necessary to get all anal and reduce to - as you put it - absurdly small amounts. Even if you generate a ridiculous amount of grey for one person like 5 gallons a day, a 1 quart bottle of bleach, a cloth to filter it through, and a container with which to sprinkle the water about on the road makes it easy to dispose of. OBviously for a camp of 10 people it might be a little more challenging, but even so it's still easier than dealing with a pond or an evapotron imo. Pumped cascades are even worse for sending stray droplets flying in the wind, and depending on what's in it, stinking like the cruddy recesses of the bottom of a dive bar bathroom garbage can.
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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby missmelee » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:42 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:No showers on the last day, make it quick, every other day only... that sounds like it sucks!
How could you have had room to carry the water in but not out?


Haha... it doesn't really! We just don't want to put dirty/gray water back into the containers that previously housed clean water or drinking water. It works for us to just use water sparingly and have less to haul on our journey home. To each their own :)

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Re: On evap ponds...

Postby melodiousdirge » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:44 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:No showers on the last day, make it quick, every other day only... that sounds like it sucks!


:roll:
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