Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by lucky420 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:35 am

OMG

Ruuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnn, duck & cover!

The sky is fallingggggggg, the sky is fallingggggggggg. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by VultureChow » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:43 am

Corvus wrote:
VultureChow wrote:I'm not worrying about it. The man will burn, and I will be there. I'm just interested to see how it works out.
This should be every burnar's mantra.

I'm wondering about the road damage comment. What with the sheetrock plant in Empire closing a couple years ago, I can see Ingress/Exodus being the most traffic by far for the two weeks they happen, but the number of BRC citizens driving 80,000 lb semitrailers has to be pretty miniscule.
I'm thinking that this move is more an effort to placate the local authorities and highway dept than anything else. A bit of a CYA move. Don't have a problem with it. We are a hugely disruptive force for the locals.

That's a good point about the plant, though I wonder if the skill of the drivers has something to do with it. The soft shoulders are just ripe for asphalt disintegration. Maybe we, on a per capita basis are more likely to pull off and contribute to the erosion there.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by CapSmashy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:54 am

moonwatcher wrote:Highly organized camps, camps that have many years of experience on the playa, probably already know how many vehicle passes they will need (+/-).
Nope. We ran a village. We had very efficient and organized folk in leadership positions and while we knew early one about our core membership, we had several campers that were in a ebb and flow situation on an annual basis, job issues, camp defaultia curve balls, etc.

In fact, after 7 years in a row, I find myself in this exact same position for the burn this year. I will probably not know until late July or early Aug if we will be making the trek to the event this year because there are far too many balls in the air and they are taking way too long to hit the ground to make the decision for being gone for 3 weeks and spending the usual 4 to 6 thousand dollars the trip costs us.

I mentioned in an earlier thread, I had zero concerns in regards to securing a couple of tickets at that late of a date because that is usually the time when thousands of tickets are getting dumped onto the various markets. The whole vehicle pass thing simply adds another wrinkle to our process. Will the people that are dumping tickets also be dumping vehicle passes along with them? Unnamed source have mentioned that there is apossibility of selling these at Will Call in addition to ticket sales. That's great, but only if it is a guarantee that there will be vehicle passes there.

I'd hate to drive 2k miles and burn $1500 in fuel getting there on a maybe that turned out to be a no. I think I'd be giving the Perimeter folk something to do at that point because Charon would make quick work of the trash fence. :mrgreen:
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by EspressoDude » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:16 am

I think the new fee is a way to isolate the regular ticket funds from attack by the locals for road and infrastructure issues. county wants money for road repair, org hands over $ from this pot. county wants more. sorry pot is empty. collect more. sorry burners bitched like hell over $40, take your handout and go away. political negotiation as usual.

Oh and those road shoulders gonna get worse with overloaded vehicles trying to save $40 that get flat tires or lose control
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by CapSmashy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:24 am

EspressoDude wrote:Oh and those road shoulders gonna get worse with overloaded vehicles trying to save $40 that get flat tires or lose control
I predict as many as 9 RV's breaking in half this year because people do not understand axle limits, GVW and how all that open space in a cheap RV does not mean stuff it full.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:45 am

Oh yeah. There are so many people driving extra unneeded vehicles to Burning Man. Every vehicle that comes through the gate isn't loaded to or beyond capacity. Right? Bullshit !!!
Yeah sure I get it there's pressure to reduce vehicle traffic but all I'm seeing is another red tape issue and an excuse to squeeze more money in the process.
Seriously does anyone know anyone who isn't already maximizing every inch of space in their vehicle?
Last edited by Captain Goddammit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by VultureChow » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:52 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:Oh yeah. There are so many people driving extra unneeded vehicles to Burning Man. Every vehicle that comes through the gate isn't loaded to or beyond capacity. Right? Bullshit !!!
If I were to be totally honest, with some more careful packing I could fit another human being and two suitcases into my car.

I've thought about it, offering a rideshare, and while I like to think of myself as helpful and giving, this is one area that I haven't given in on. I fly in. I fly back out. My timing is carefully regulated by those two reservations. Not a lot of wiggle room there. I'm fortunate enough that I don't need to defray my travel costs by picking someone up for gas money, and the $40 vehicle fee doesn't change that.

If someone from our village needed emergency help, I would offer it, but otherwise, I will be one of the (slightly)underloaded vehicles.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by GreyCoyote » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:55 am

This might be one of those times where paying a $40 per car fee at the entrance would make sense. No limit to the number of cars (its a big playa!) but there would be an incentive to car pool just the same, and there wouldnt be the potential mismatch of tickets and vehicle permits. It acts as a tax on those doing the alleged "damage" to the roads but doesnt create a situation where a ticketholder is denied access just because he couldnt get a parking pass.

On a different note, maybe the BMorg could consider an additional outer ring just for parking cars. You could come in, unload at your camp, get the basic stuff set up, and then move your car out to The Ring for the rest of the Burn. (Some events already do this). Cars in camps take up space that can be used for other stuff. Certainly dont make it mandatory to move all cars to The Ring, but make it attractive to do so. This would let us use the city-space more efficiently as we grow.
Last edited by GreyCoyote on Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by GreyCoyote » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:57 am

Captain Goddammit wrote: Seriously does anyone know anyone who isn't already maximizing every inch of space in their vehicle?
I could likely get another stick of gum and extra pair of shoelaces in if I cleaned out the ashtray. :mrgreen:
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by AntiM » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:59 am

We use vehicles in our village as traffic blocks. People see the interior paths in the village and try to drive down them, to cut through the double block. We arrange the vehicles so bikes can get around, but not cars.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by GreyCoyote » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:02 am

AntiM wrote:We use vehicles in our village as traffic blocks. People see the interior paths in the village and try to drive down them, to cut through the double block. We arrange the vehicles so bikes can get around, but not cars.
Fair enough. But I think there are many vehicles not doing barricade duty that could be moved. Maybe half of them? Dunno. Just thinking out loud.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:12 am

Ok there's the fly-in people who rent cars to get to the playa.
Other than that who really shows up in a vehicle empty enough to carry someone else and all their gear? And how rare is that, if there's anyone?

How many threads are there about what to do with all this extra space in my vehicle?
How many threads about towing trailers and renting trucks and building racks to try to cram all your shit onto your vehicle?
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by CapSmashy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:13 am

GreyCoyote wrote:Fair enough. But I think there are many vehicles not doing barricade duty that could be moved. Maybe half of them? Dunno. Just thinking out loud.
They are not worried about repaving the playa, they are worried about the roads coming into the event.

Parking cars in a big lot somewhere would only serve to give the car thieves a centralized location to go shopping for stereos, nav systems, phones and other valuables.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by CapSmashy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:20 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:Ok there's the fly-in people who rent cars to get to the playa.
Other than that who really shows up in a vehicle empty enough to carry someone else and all their gear? And how rare is that, if there's anyone?
As a Gate veteran I can say with some authority that 95% of the vehicles I interact with are stuffed to capacity.

The typical exception I see are the really nice RV coaches with an older couple or two on board.

Of course, considering a lot of Burners pack their vehicles like a horde of cracked out spider monkeys, there could actually be a lot of usable space in those vehicles that is wasted by VERY inefficient packing jobs.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:26 am

I don't think so. Weight is the other factor. I have a bit of extra space myself but we're all loaded about as heavy as our vehicles can handle.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by TT120 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:30 am

People ARE going to hoard the vehicle passes.
There WILL be a shortage of passes when the main sale goes live.

I could probably squeeze another person into my truck but no way in hell could I fit another person AND all their gear for a week in there.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by mudpuppy000 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:40 am

GreyCoyote wrote:
Captain Goddammit wrote: Seriously does anyone know anyone who isn't already maximizing every inch of space in their vehicle?
I could likely get another stick of gum and extra pair of shoelaces in if I cleaned out the ashtray. :mrgreen:
I think I could maybe fit someone in my passenger seat if they're willing to hold all their gear on their lap the whole time. :)

I could see this negatively impacting how much art/whimsical stuff people decide to bring out there. Hmm, do I pick up a rideshare, or bring out my life sized plastic goat?

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by CapSmashy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:54 am

Is the goat anatomically correct?
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FIGJAM » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:56 am

I've got room for 2 more people and all their gear, and the gear for 3 more.

Will I do this?

Hell no!

I like my long lonely drive on the spooky route.

One ticket, one vehicle pass= no problem.

I encourage everyone to buy two tickets and two passes, then BURN one of the passes!!! :twisted:
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by LittleJack » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:00 am

I drive up in a Honda Fit that is packed at home with the assistance of my brilliant and talented wife, who is an astrophysicist by education and training, so it's tetrised pretty damned tightly. The problem is that I'm not NEARLY as smart as she, even less so by the end of the week, so it takes me hours on Sunday to pack the damned car back up again, cramming things into every bit of available space (including the cup holders and glove box). I'm quite positive that I pack it far beyond its GVWR, plus at the end of the event the 10' long PVC poles for my monkey hut on the roof rack are curved from 10 days in the sun, so they bend to cover the top third of the windshield, reducing visibility. Not only that, but my tricycle on the bike rack in back likely obscures my license plate, a violation that caused several friends of mine to get pulled over last year.

Given all that, I've been thinking about renting a truck this year and sharing the space (and expense) with at least one other friend in our village. The vehicle pass situation has pushed me from thinking about it into now planning to do so. Depending on the size of the truck, we may even be able to take 1 or 2 more people's gear, allowing them to ride the Burner Express or carpool with others. It will just mean more logistics planning for the days before and after the event to pick stuff up and drop stuff off.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by mudpuppy000 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:00 am

CapSmashy wrote:Is the goat anatomically correct?
We are still trying to figure that out. We're not sure if he has one enormous ball or an udder.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by lucky420 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:08 am

TT120 wrote:People ARE going to hoard the vehicle passes.
There WILL be a shortage of passes when the main sale goes live.

I could probably squeeze another person into my truck but no way in hell could I fit another person AND all their gear for a week in there.
You're pretty sure about that!
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:27 am

VultureChow wrote:
Corvus wrote:
VultureChow wrote:I'm not worrying about it. The man will burn, and I will be there. I'm just interested to see how it works out.
This should be every burnar's mantra.

I'm wondering about the road damage comment. What with the sheetrock plant in Empire closing a couple years ago, I can see Ingress/Exodus being the most traffic by far for the two weeks they happen, but the number of BRC citizens driving 80,000 lb semitrailers has to be pretty miniscule.
I'm thinking that this move is more an effort to placate the local authorities and highway dept than anything else. A bit of a CYA move. Don't have a problem with it. We are a hugely disruptive force for the locals.

That's a good point about the plant, though I wonder if the skill of the drivers has something to do with it. The soft shoulders are just ripe for asphalt disintegration. Maybe we, on a per capita basis are more likely to pull off and contribute to the erosion there.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:29 am

belch

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by ACfromSAC » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:34 am

I think the vehicle pass issue will likely be very similar to the 2011 ticket issue in that people will buy them up, a shortage will result and then there will be a mass dumping of them a month before the burn and those who missed out will be able to get them for below face value. I think the idea is a GREAT one, so good on you BMORG. I think a limit of one pass per person would have been a smarter plan, I only know a handful of people who drive in two cars at a time to the burn... it requires a lot of talent and extremely long arms and legs. Those who will be driving in a vehicle can buy a pass for themselves. HOPEFULLY the number of passes being purchased will be limited to the number of tickets being purchased (one ticket, one vehicle pass). If not, I foresee a major shortage, followed by a major sell off before the event. If my math was correct, there are only 61,000 tickets being sold and 35,000 vehicle passes. In my mind, that seems like more than enough so I'm not really sweating it.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:49 am

If I'm reading this right.. BM is expecting to cut vehicle traffic by 50%

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by htzpah » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:15 am

I only have two issues with the vehicle permitting regime they are trying this year:

1) Price is too low.
2) Given the low price, there are too many permits being issued.

BMORG is simply following the example of many cities, most notably London, in implementing congestion pricing. It solved the issue of congestion in central London during rush hour, and has the potential to significantly improve thousands of peoples' experiences at Burning Man.

You could reach your goal of 2.5 people/vehicle very easily...simply issue only 1 vehicle permit for every 2.5 tickets! At that rate, the price would justifiably have to be much higher, I would estimate about $200/vehicle. You need you make using a vehicle expensive enough that people actually substitute something like ridesharing or taking the Burner Express. Since prices for the Burner Express are $60/one-way (+$5/bag), for example, and unless the 2-3 hours you save to get to 447 are worth a lot to you, it will take a lot more than $40 to convince someone it's the right move.

Right now, you get a total of 61,000 tickets adding up the various levels of tickets (3k Pre-Sale + 15k Group + 38k Ind + 4k LowInc + 1k OMG = 61k tickets), meaning a rate of roughly 1.74 people/vehicle, which is much less than last year's 1.9! Charging $40 for a permit will on the margin dissuade a very small amount of vehicles, if any at all. Assuming a 1.9 ratio, the average cost per person per vehicle is $21, which is a roughly 5.5% "tax" on the ticket price for the average person attending. Since tickets sold out last year, and if anything, access to Burning Man is oversubscribed at current prices, this is simply a general price hike rather than a genuine response to traffic congestion during entry and exodus, and I predict it will have no significant impact.

BMORG could have farmed out this problem to any group of economics grad students and gotten a better pricing/sizing scheme.

In the meantime, I hope they set some sort of limit as to how many vehicle permits one can purchase (ideally 1 for every 2 tickets), otherwise an enterprising, or perhaps benevolent, person could buy them all. That would put that person in a position to do what BMORG should have, and resell, say, only 24,400 of those permits, preferably via auction, or simply distribute them based on need (ideally a mix of the two, about 95% auction, 5% need (same as low income tix)). Peter Thiel or Elon Musk...either of you reading this?

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:17 am

Not if those economic grad students didn't realize that already the "participant" to vehicle is already 1.9 to 1...
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FIGJAM » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:30 am

Is everybody's reading comprehension so poor or is mine?

My understanding is that you can only buy one vehicle pass for each ticket you purchase.

No one can buy passes in bulk lots! :roll:
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by hotmess » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:31 am

Still not sure how I feel about this pay to park policy this year. I am all for it if it will help reduce traffic for entry/exodus. The only thing I don't understand is why they did not issue higher price parking passes for RV's.

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