Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

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Ugly Dougly
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:33 am

FIGJAM wrote: My understanding is that you can only buy one vehicle pass for each ticket you purchase.
That would mean one person per vehicle.
See? I can haz maths!

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FIGJAM » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:38 am

Yes, but there is no requirement to buy a pass when purchasing the ticket!

That jommatree. 8)
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by mudpuppy000 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:50 am

I'm going to buy an extra ticket just for the extra pass!

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:57 am

CapSmashy wrote: As a Gate veteran I can say with some authority that 95% of the vehicles I interact with are stuffed to capacity.
There goes your theory about the problem being too many half empty vehicles, as if everyone didn't know the excess unused vehicle issue was pure bullshit.
$200 vehicle permit? Oh yeah great idea. That will fix it. Make it $2000.

Wanna know what your genius economics will accomplish in the real world? A large increase in bus loads of spectators.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Dr awkwarD » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:02 am

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FIGJAM » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:03 am

More overloaded vehicles= more breakdowns on 447.

Better to have just raised the ticket price as per usual.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by VultureChow » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:08 am

I'm going to have a pad of fee slips made up with ridiculous things, throw on my Mountie hat and coat and then stop vehicles and calculate their fees.

Okay, so that's $30 for arriving during daylight, $10 insufficient bacon fee and $25 per facial piercing. Here's your invoice, you can pay at First Camp. They only accept the Discover card.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:23 am

You may buy one vehicle pass with one ticket..

@ 35000 vehicle passes it will cut 30 000 cars off the 447 from Gerlach to the playa..

You may or may not get in on the vehicle pass buy.. If not your fucked :arrow:

Your fucked if you pull a trailer..

Your fucked if your disabled..

Your fuck if you live in a corner not covered by express bus..

Your fuck if you want a shelter..

Your fucked as the list go's on..

At the very least you some action ie Get fucked

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:33 am

No matter how you slice it, By limiting vehicles your limiting the disabled..

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by MrBeardy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:38 am

I think that the bottom that we all know and dont want to admit is that both tickets and car passes will sell out immediately, this is a fact and will be every year going forward. The good news is that just like every year, come summer, there will be plenty of tickets and car passes for those that want them. Panic now if you will, but everyone that wants to go this year will. If you didn't go in years past, you didn't want to go bad enough...

The end. :D

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:41 am

MrBeardy wrote:If you didn't go in years past, you didn't want to go bad enough...
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by illy dilly » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:48 am

The real question is, if I ride my mountain bike from Gerlach to Black Rock City, will I have to pay for a vehicle pass?
And, what if I take Jungo road? That doesn't put any extra stress on 447!!! :wink:

In seriousness, I originally thought this vehicle pass thing was all bull shit. That 60% of the vehicle passes will be grabbed up in the Directed Group Sale and the remaining 40% in the Individual Sale and then it will be a complete shit show and everyone else will be screwed. People in the OMG sale will definitely be screwed.
That's how it will still start out but I think it will sort it self out by July or August.

I can't imagine that STEP wont have to have some sort of provisions for vehicle passes. In the STEP system it will probably just look like another ticket at a $40 price tier. People will definitely hoard the vehicle passes tell the details get ironed out then sell them in late summer.

The 2:1 people per vehicle ratio sounds about right to me. I know in the past, we've had "gear haulers" (one or two people in a big ass truck) and "people haulers" (2-4 people in a super gas efficient car) that get all the gear and people there for a medium sized camp. There will always be the lone ranger type riding in on a motor cycle or something ( :shock: :arrow: Simon ) and that will be balanced out by the RV's with 4 to 6 riders.
I do think the Vehicle pass might encourage more folks to go with trailers on a truck they were bringing anyway, rather than an extra box truck. Though, people already want to gas up as few vehicles as possible.
moonwatcher wrote:I do not know if the 35k number for passes is a hard number imposed by BLM and NDOT. Assuming it is NOT contractually imposed, BM could easily say "ooops, we need more passes" and add passes to the individual sale.
Shit, there could already be plans to add another 1,000 VP in the OMG Sale, and this is just another chance for the BMorg to teach the "Only buy what you need" lesson.

Its gonna be a shit show at first! But, in the end it will all work it self out for anyone who pays attention..... Sorta like it does every year.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by VultureChow » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:53 am

unjonharley wrote:You may buy one vehicle pass with one ticket..

@ 35000 vehicle passes it will cut 30 000 cars off the 447 from Gerlach to the playa..
Except that's not the case. If the average vehicle contains 1.9 people, then 35,000 pass can reasonably accommodate 66,500 people without any changes to behavior.

And that's without any special exceptions being made or changes later in the game.

It will all come down to distribution and the behavior of ticket purchasers. Will people buy unneccessary passes?

What would have been interesting was to add the fee without adding a limit. Say it is a vehicle use fee and the proceeds are going to maintain the area roadways. Without the threat of scarcity, they accomplish everything they set out to do. 1)Raise money for road care 2)Incentivise ride sharing and alternate transportation methods.

People would have claimed it was just a ticket increase without actually raising ticket prices, but that's already being said.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:56 am

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by elKay » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:08 pm

I see an business opportunity for folks in Gerlach, who have some land along the way, to offer parking spaces for the week and a shuttle to the event.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:14 pm

VultureChow wrote:
unjonharley wrote:You may buy one vehicle pass with one ticket..

@ 35000 vehicle passes it will cut 30 000 cars off the 447 from Gerlach to the playa..
Except that's not the case. If the average vehicle contains 1.9 people, then 35,000 pass can reasonably accommodate 66,500 people without any changes to behavior.

And that's without any special exceptions being made or changes later in the game.

It will all come down to distribution and the behavior of ticket purchasers. Will people buy unneccessary passes?

What would have been interesting was to add the fee without adding a limit. Say it is a vehicle use fee and the proceeds are going to maintain the area roadways. Without the threat of scarcity, they accomplish everything they set out to do. 1)Raise money for road care 2)Incentivise ride sharing and alternate transportation methods.

People would have claimed it was just a ticket increase without actually raising ticket prices, but that's already being said.
Thank you for taking me out of context... I have a extra seat.. I must "my" vehicle for a disability.. I can assure you there are hundreds like me..I would gladly pay a road repair fee.. The price of a road fee and ticket is all in the cost of going..

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:23 pm

@VultureChow - yeah, hoarding is a potential concern... just as it is with tickets. I think it'll work out. It's less of a CYA move and more of a thing that we absolutely must do in order to continue to have the event, let alone think about growing it in the future. It's long been known that one of the pain points in having and growing the event is the number of vehicles on the road.

@shLong - both. First, after bumping our heads on the ceiling last year, Burning Man will be a lot more cautious about offering additional tickets. And second, I think that the vehicle pass program will have its intended effect - people will make better use of rideshares and shuttle services like Burner Express. If every camp reduces the number of cars they bring by just one vehicle, that's several thousand fewer cars on the road (and in gate/exodus lines).

@Valgar - the posted information states clearly that it does not apply to towed vehicles. An MV on a towed trailer does NOT need a pass.

@CaptainGoddammit - I'd consider it to be something of an increase. But in fairness, it costs money to put on the event, and those costs and fees are constantly on the rise. Mo money indeed...

@MikeGyver - staffers should get in touch with their managers and team leads with regards to vehicle passes.

@Patamon (the pessimist!) - even if things are as chock full of hoarding as you suspect, there'd still be more than 20K vehicle passes available in the Individual Sale. That's a far cry from "little to zero passes left". There may be some hoarding, but for the most part I expect not. Seasoned burners already have an idea of their needs from past years. My gf and I rode together in a van filled with camp gear, we'd only need one pass between us. The rest of our campmates traveled with 2-4 people in their vehicles, they'd likely need 1 pass for every 2-4 people. A couple campmates took the Burner Express buses and had a good experience, they plan on doing that again and won't need any passes. A couple campmates are probably going to make the switch to Burner Express this year, they won't need vehicle passes either.

@AlexMN1984 - no you may not, it's a max of 1 pass per ticket purchased.

@GreyCoyote - if they're sold at the gate in an unlimited capacity, that unfortunately does nothing to show that Burning Man's got any control over the number of vehicles on the road. I don't particularly like the idea of a parking ring. There's the NIMBY factor, plus as I understand it there are a fair number of people who particularly enjoy camping on the outermost streets, wide open spaces and a killer view, plus they get their own parades of art cars.

@TT120 - some people probably will, but certainly not all. We know that the box truck we rent can seat 2, and the cargo van my gf and I travel in seats 2, and our campmates can get 2-4 people into their vehicles. Plus the campmates who are planning on taking the express bus don't need a pass. Buying more passes than we need would be more costly for us, be a hassle to deal with, and be a shitty thing to do to other people.

@LittleJack - doo eet, you'll be glad you did. In the years before my camp started doing a box truck rental, every vehicle was overloaded to dangerous capacity, and as you said it took forever to get things repacked. With the box truck we're all safer, packing is easier, and cars can be used for hauling people.

@ACfromSAC - I think you're confusing 2011 with 2012.

@unjonharley - the number of vehicle passes being offered represents no real cut. Burning Man has a goal of reducing vehicle traffic (the goal is to go from 1.9 humans per vehicle to someday getting over 2.5 humans per vehicle), but that's through a combination of things (express bus, flights, awareness, etc). You're nowhere near as fucked as you think you are. Towing trailers doesn't screw you over (in fact, it's encouraged), and disabled burners aren't barred from getting vehicle passes.

@htzpah - I agree, the price is probably too low. I don't think they were modeling it after congestion pricing in other cities so much as what is already common practice in a lot of campouts and festivals.

@FIGJAM - yes, you're right. People are missing that detail. As for 'just raising prices', that wouldn't do anything to get arms around the number of vehicles issue. Previously, Burning Man had no way to plan for (or curb) the number of vehicles on the road. Considering that road capacity has been a major factor in the growth of the event over the years, getting their arms around that seems like something that's important to do. And having a separate bucket for that makes some sense if there are going to be responsibilities for helping to maintain the roads.

@hotmess - with around 1K registered camps and 4-5 times that many unregistered camps, if the vehicle pass thing leads each camp to reduce the number of vehicles they bring by only 1, that's several thousand fewer vehicles on the road (and in gate & exodus lines).

@MrBeardy - I agree, and readily admit it, both will sell out. That's just the world we live in now, ever since July 24, 2011 (first time the event sold out). Unless the population cap increases significantly (which it won't, largely due to road capacity limitations), then we're just in a climate of scarcity. I also agree, those who plan..burn. Every year, there's a churn of as many as 1/4 of tickets purchased changing hands because someone's plans changed - if you perservere you'll probably find the ticket/pass you're looking for.

@illy dilly - it's not possible for 60% of the vehicle passes to be grabbed up in the directed group sale.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:30 pm

trilobyte wrote:@unjonharley - the number of vehicle passes being offered represents no real cut. Burning Man has a goal of reducing vehicle traffic (the goal is to go from 1.9 humans per vehicle to someday getting over 2.5 humans per vehicle), but that's through a combination of things (express bus, flights, awareness, etc). You're nowhere near as fucked as you think you are. Towing trailers doesn't screw you over (in fact, it's encouraged), and disabled burners aren't barred from getting vehicle passes.
I think he's concerned about getting a pass with a low income ticket.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:40 pm

"get over them"
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by illy dilly » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:44 pm

trilobyte wrote:@illy dilly - it's not possible for 60% of the vehicle passes to be grabbed up in the directed group sale.
Unless I miss read JRS a person could buy one ticket and two vehicle passes. According to the JRS there is a limit of 15,000 tickets for Direct Group Sale, but not a limit of 15,000 Vehicle passes.
There is a maximum of 2 tickets and 2 Vehicle Passes per person.
A camp leader might know they need one vehicle for them selves, and one for the box truck that brings all the stuff even though they don't know who will be driving the box truck yet.
Or, one person might know they get a ticket because of prior years volunteer work, but they aren't sure how the vehicle pass thing shakes out, so they might ask a friend to grab them a vehicle pass in the early direct group sale.

Highly unlikely it will happen- Yes. Impossible- NO.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:55 pm

I fully understand the above..

If I am sitting in my yard at home, Ready to pull out for the drive to BM. I have a ticket.. If I can not a acquire a vehicle pass.. I'm fucked..

The chances of me getting a vehicle pass is way out there.. You can bet your sweet ass that the boys in the 700k RVs already have a pass..

Look at what happened last year.. When the heavy hitters couldn't get enough ticket for there (huge) theme camps..

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:57 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
trilobyte wrote:@unjonharley - the number of vehicle passes being offered represents no real cut. Burning Man has a goal of reducing vehicle traffic (the goal is to go from 1.9 humans per vehicle to someday getting over 2.5 humans per vehicle), but that's through a combination of things (express bus, flights, awareness, etc). You're nowhere near as fucked as you think you are. Towing trailers doesn't screw you over (in fact, it's encouraged), and disabled burners aren't barred from getting vehicle passes.
I think he's concerned about getting a pass with a low income ticket.
No Fishy, I can pay ticket and vehicle pass.. Put the money in the account yesterday.. Like you I must have my own vehicle and can offer a ride for another person.. The mad dash for a vehicle pass will put special needs persons a a greater disadvantage.. Theme camps will whine until they get what they want (like lasty year) Others will be dumped in the dust.. Or is it.. If your not quick enough you can go fuck yourself..

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by ZaphodBurner » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:07 pm

I just logged on to start off the season with a healthy round of everybody freaking the fuck out and screaming about how Burning Man sucks and how overcrowded and commercialized it is now that we've all crammed the Burning Man culture down the World's throat with as many boobies and naked hotties that YouTube will allow. Not to be missed.

It turns out that you're not as insignificant as you think you are, Charlie Brown, and your friends finally came out in their land zeppelins and rental RVs. Way to go, asshole. What pill did people take that made them think that the great state of Nevada hasn't already institutionalized the exploitation and fleecing of tourists?
You fucking GO to the playa to get fucking fucked, you fucking fuck, so if you fucking bitch about the government fucking you at Burning Man, WTF? Okay, Okay, they FUCK YOUUU....

Seriously... We always have at least two of us, sometimes three, in our van. Pretty much everybody in our camp rides 2-5 or more in a vehicle, especially in the RVs. The idea of 40,000 vehicles on the playa is as unrealistic as it is disturbing. This will work itself out. We only go every other year. I can't wait!
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:12 pm

Oh this is going to work out just fine.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by mudpuppy000 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:14 pm

"land zeppelins" *snort* :D

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:19 pm

@Fishy - low income applicants will find out more about their vehicle pass options during that process - a number of those details (including dates) are still TBA.

@illydilly - vehicle passes are available on a 1:1 ratio with tickets sold. That means presale buyers may purchase up to 4 tickets and 4 passes, and directed group sale buyers may purchase up to 2 tickets and 2 passes. But regardless of that, it's still not possible to sell 60% of the vehicle passes in the early sales.

@unjonharley - yes, if you've waited until the day you leave for the playa to think about getting a vehicle pass, you're fucked. Well, you probably aren't - you'd probably have some luck looking around on ePlaya or someplace else where last minute tickets change hands. Lesson of the story - don't wait until the last second to plan your trip.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by CapSmashy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:25 pm

trilobyte wrote:@unjonharley - yes, if you've waited until the day you leave for the playa to think about getting a vehicle pass, you're fucked. Well, you probably aren't - you'd probably have some luck looking around on ePlaya or someplace else where last minute tickets change hands. Lesson of the story - don't wait until the last second to plan your trip.
What, and be forced to plan ahead? Yeah right!

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Savannah » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:32 pm

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:36 pm

trilobyte wrote:@Fishy - low income applicants will find out more about their vehicle pass options during that process - a number of those details (including dates) are still TBA.

@illydilly - vehicle passes are available on a 1:1 ratio with tickets sold. That means presale buyers may purchase up to 4 tickets and 4 passes, and directed group sale buyers may purchase up to 2 tickets and 2 passes. But regardless of that, it's still not possible to sell 60% of the vehicle passes in the early sales.

@unjonharley - yes, if you've waited until the day you leave for the playa to think about getting a vehicle pass, you're fucked. Well, you probably aren't - you'd probably have some luck looking around on ePlaya or someplace else where last minute tickets change hands. Lesson of the story - don't wait until the last second to plan your trip.
Your being silly.. Leaving transporting 60 000 in 30 000 vehicles up to the pass holders..

Not waiting for the last min. to find a pass.. I need my vehicle to participate in Burning Man.. If I am one of the 30 00 without a pass i'm wasting my time..
As anyone else living outside the target area (SF/Reno) That need a vehicle to tow or/..

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by pink » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:03 pm

unjonharley, no one has said yet that low income ticket holders can't buy a vehicle pass. Look above at Trilo's answer to Fishy.
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