Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Want to talk about tickets? You've come to the right place
User avatar
unjonharley
Posts: 10315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
Location: Salem Or.

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:07 pm

pink wrote:unjonharley, no one has said yet that low income ticket holders can't buy a vehicle pass. Look above at Trilo's answer to Fishy.
I could give a rats ass about low income tickets... I think it is stupid to get a low income ticket and have the money to have arrive and set a camp.. The camp cost has always been higher than any ticket..

User avatar
unjonharley
Posts: 10315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
Location: Salem Or.

Leave it as this

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:19 pm

Ass, grass or gas no one rides this VW for free...larryhas pushed us back to the ""stoned"" age

Or is that to far(out) in the old days to know what it means??

Count how many $700K RVs pick up some hair ball hippie/ravers.. coming out of NY state..

If you can't fly out to Reno with your camp on your back.. What kind of a Burner are you, already..

Every year I have offered a seat to the playa.. Eight times and no takers. Not even a nibble.

User avatar
Captain Goddammit
Posts: 8368
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am
Burning Since: 2000
Camp Name: First Camp
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:34 pm

Just make the tickets $420 and skip the extra hassle. What's wrong with that?
We're already carpooling and packing existing vehicles to capacity.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

User avatar
unjonharley
Posts: 10315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
Location: Salem Or.

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:42 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Just make the tickets $420 and skip the extra hassle. What's wrong with that?
We're already carpooling and packing existing vehicles to capacity.
Thats good with me./ cept keep the $40 as a nudge to carpool..

you would have to be real hard up to carpool with that ugly captain.

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16901
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:20 pm

@unjon, you're the one being silly. You don't need to have a vehicle pass for every ticketholder, you only need one for every vehicle. And judging from the results of the study done on last year's event, that's a hair under 2 people a vehicle. 35K should be more than enough passes. And if the doom-n-gloomers are right and people hoard vehicle passes like crazy, it will be raining vehicle passes in the weeks before the event (just like it was raining tickets in the weeks before the 2012 event).

@Captain Goddammit - as I've said in a couple places, it's necessary for Burning Man to get their arms around and have some control over the number of vehicles coming to the event. Many push their vehicles to capacity, but not everyone does.

User avatar
Valgar
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:08 pm
Burning Since: 2006
Camp Name: DeathGuild/ThunderDome

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Valgar » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:24 pm

Vehicle Passes can be purchased when you buy tickets online.
Maybe writing scripts and parsing EDI files the last two days has broken me, but does that mean if I am gifted a ticket, I can't buy a vehicle pass? Or just that I will need to enter the ticket lotto, and then just buy the pass and not the ticket?

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16901
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:37 pm

If a person can gift you a ticket, they can also gift you a vehicle pass or possibly help you sort out a rideshare of some sort. If your gifted ticket is as a result of a volunteer staff thing, you'll want to get with your manager or team lead with regards to vehicle passes.

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16901
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:45 pm

FYI folks, I'm hearing some conflicting information as to whether vehicle passes will be sold 1 to 1 with tickets purchased, or whether you can buy more passes than tickets (up to 4 in the presale, up to 2 in the directed and individual sales).

If you can buy more passes than tickets that would be a really bad idea IMO, as that only encourages people to hoard. Once I can get confirmation, I'll pass it along.

User avatar
unjonharley
Posts: 10315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
Location: Salem Or.

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:47 pm

trilobyte wrote:@unjon, you're the one being silly. You don't need to have a vehicle pass for every ticketholder, you only need one for every vehicle. And judging from the results of the study done on last year's event, that's a hair under 2 people a vehicle. 35K should be more than enough passes. And if the doom-n-gloomers are right and people hoard vehicle passes like crazy, it will be raining vehicle passes in the weeks before the event (just like it was raining tickets in the weeks before the 2012 event).

@Captain Goddammit - as I've said in a couple places, it's necessary for Burning Man to get their arms around and have some control over the number of vehicles coming to the event. Many push their vehicles to capacity, but not everyone does.
If there were two people per car last year.. Why the hell were 60 000 vehicle.. Just becouse BMorg said stuff people into your car don't mean it is possible..

IMUSThave my personal vehicle with me at BM..

The odds of the little guy getting a pass is huge..

The heavy hitters will be able to get passes if they don't already have then..

Another way to view this is.... It is against the law to charge passage for a medical device..

I could make six seats for other to ride in the van.. That means nothing if no one has a pass.. I'm sure no one is asking for a ride if they have a pass..

When I starts to rain car passes they will be up to $400 per..

If I'm lucky enough to get a car pass and ticket.. Might sell the fuckers and sit this one out..

User avatar
unjonharley
Posts: 10315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
Location: Salem Or.

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:55 pm

trilobyte wrote:FYI folks, I'm hearing some conflicting information as to whether vehicle passes will be sold 1 to 1 with tickets purchased, or whether you can buy more passes than tickets (up to 4 in the presale, up to 2 in the directed and individual sales).

If you can buy more passes than tickets that would be a really bad idea IMO, as that only encourages people to hoard. Once I can get confirmation, I'll pass it along.
That has to be a miss print in the JRS.....

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16901
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:24 pm

There weren't 60,000 vehicles at the event. Last year or ever.

You're missing the point in the raining tickets in 2012 comparison. In that year, hoarders trying to unload the tickets they no longer needed were selling them at face, and in many cases far below face value. Some idiots may try scalping vehicle passes, it would probably be met with the same response as selling tickets above face - the entire order would be canceled and tickets voided.

As for being against the law to charge passage for a medical device, that's a good question. You may want to take it up with the ticket support folks, though I've relayed it onwards to a couple people at HQ to look into.

User avatar
Patamon
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Patamon » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:33 pm

Image

User avatar
tatonka
Posts: 3369
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:28 pm
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Camp Threat
Location: oregon

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by tatonka » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:46 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Just make the tickets $420 and skip the extra hassle. What's wrong with that?
We're already carpooling and packing existing vehicles to capacity.

this
Tales told
Of battles won
Of things we've done
Caligula would grin

User avatar
BBadger
Posts: 5870
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 am
Burning Since: 2010
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by BBadger » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:51 pm

This is really just a scheme to get you to fill out the census for a validation sticker.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.

User avatar
Patamon
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Patamon » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:52 pm

Image

User avatar
theCryptofishist
Posts: 40313
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:28 am
Burning Since: 2017
Location: In Exile

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:52 pm

tatonka wrote:
Captain Goddammit wrote:Just make the tickets $420 and skip the extra hassle. What's wrong with that?
We're already carpooling and packing existing vehicles to capacity.

this
No. Like Trilo said, that won't do a thing to lower the number of vehicles coming in, which is one of the long term goals here. Merely paying for the road isn't enough.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

User avatar
mudpuppy000
Posts: 1552
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:54 pm
Burning Since: 2009
Camp Name: THE BELLIGERENT GAP
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by mudpuppy000 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:03 pm

trilobyte wrote:And if the doom-n-gloomers are right and people hoard vehicle passes like crazy, it will be raining vehicle passes in the weeks before the event (just like it was raining tickets in the weeks before the 2012 event).
That's the thing, I wouldn't want a big question mark hanging over me till 2 weeks before the event. Plus it's only $40. Once STEP closes is anyone going to bother trying to find a local buyer on craigslist or whatever?

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16901
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:05 pm

For fuck's sakes, patamon, just rent a bigger truck for your camp. Depending on how big your camp is, it might even make sense to rent a separate truck to haul the infrastructure, and one to haul campmates' gear.

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16901
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:07 pm

@mudpuppy000 - if that became an issue (and that's a big if), plenty of people are able to successfully buy/sell tickets on ePlaya.

User avatar
Eric
Moderator
Posts: 9358
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: BRC Weekly
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Eric » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:21 pm

One thing I'm noticing that everyone freaking out in this thread doesn't seem to be able to get a grip on: the "typical" (read: "average") vehicle is already carrying "1.9 humans" into the event - that means that almost half of the vehicles coming into the event already have 2 or more people in them, while just slightly over half has 1 person. I know the vehicle I come in never has less than 3 of us, and has carried up to 6 in the past. We don't have a single person in our camp who travels alone - all come in 2s & 3s, which means my entire camp won't need more than 3 or 4 passes for a dozen-ish people, and most camps probably have similar ratios (if they're not solo). The 35,000 passes is more than enough based on the number of tickets being sold and how people have traveled in the past, and will encourage those slightly-more-than-half who are currently travelling alone to think about having someone travel with them.

That said, do I think there will be some assholes hoarding because they don't understand basic math, because, face it, Burners are just people. As for the images of overloaded trucks that have been posted - the passes admit roughly the same vehicles that came last year. If you didn't see your over-packed vehicle vision last year, why do you think you'll see it this year? Other than "sky is falling" paranoia and an apparent desire to freak people out, of course.

tl:dr: The number of passes for this year = roughly the same number of vehicles as last year. The passes force people to think about how they're traveling, and to give the Org long-term proof they can control traffic in the future.

Or, with my mod-hat off: Calm the fuck down. :roll:
Damn hippies will find anything to go apeshit over...
It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Regarding Scammers & Scalpers
Please read above link for all official information.

Eric ShutterSlut
Ass't Editor, BRC Weekly

User avatar
unjonharley
Posts: 10315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
Location: Salem Or.

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:31 pm

Eric wrote:One thing I'm noticing that everyone freaking out in this thread doesn't seem to be able to get a grip on: the "typical" (read: "average") vehicle is already carrying "1.9 humans" into the event - that means that almost half of the vehicles coming into the event already have 2 or more people in them, while just slightly over half has 1 person. I know the vehicle I come in never has less than 3 of us, and has carried up to 6 in the past. We don't have a single person in our camp who travels alone - all come in 2s & 3s, which means my entire camp won't need more than 3 or 4 passes for a dozen-ish people, and most camps probably have similar ratios (if they're not solo). The 35,000 passes is more than enough based on the number of tickets being sold and how people have traveled in the past, and will encourage those slightly-more-than-half who are currently travelling alone to think about having someone travel with them.
If this were anywhere near correct There is no need for the dispensing 35 000 road tax.. Just add iot on the price of a ticket.. If your right the BMorg is pole vaulting over mouse turds.

User avatar
illy dilly
Posts: 4900
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:02 am
Burning Since: 2009
Camp Name: Gnome Dome
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by illy dilly » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:31 pm

trilobyte wrote: @illydilly - vehicle passes are available on a 1:1 ratio with tickets sold. That means presale buyers may purchase up to 4 tickets and 4 passes, and directed group sale buyers may purchase up to 2 tickets and 2 passes. But regardless of that, it's still not possible to sell 60% of the vehicle passes in the early sales.
I hadn't seen this 1 vehicle pass (VP) per 1 ticket rule posted. Where was it?
For clarification, I was referring to the Directed Group Sale. Its very unlikely, but if 15,000 people could each buy 1 ticket and 2 passes, that would be 30k passes. Unless, the limit is also Capped at 15,000 VP, which it could be and I just haven't seen it stated.

Though hopefully it will be ironed out to a 1 VP per 1 Ticket plan before the actual sales start. Even so that means that the directed group sale could end up with 15k of the 35k passes. Leaving the individual sale and OMG sale 39k tickets to share the remaining 20k VP.

I stand by my theory that in the beginning, groups or individuals will hoard the Vehicle Passes, but by late July or early August it will sort it self out. And, the way it might simply be the BMorg prints more Vehicle Passes.

Half way through the JRS, under the Burning Man Traffic Mitigation Plan, Vehicle Passes it states
...There are 35,000 passes available this year. This may change in future years depending on how successful we are at reducing traffic in 2014.
Which makes me believe they're going off the 1.9:1 ratio and seeing how the cookie crumbles.
Why don't ya stick your head in that hole and find out? ~piehole
Plan for the worst, expect the best. Make the most out of it under any conditions. If you cannot do that you will never enjoy yourself. ~CrispyDave

User avatar
Dr. Pyro
Posts: 4715
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:11 am
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Barbie Death Camp & Wine Bistro
Location: Meadow Vista, CA
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Dr. Pyro » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:34 pm

Last year the vehicle I was in had eight people total in it. It seems to me that if you have five or more people in a single vehicle not only should you be able to bypass the $40 fee but also have a dedicated mega-car-pool lane. I mean if Larry really wanted to sell the product, uh, I mean concept of responsible carpooling. But of course he doesn't, he just wants more money and can blame it on the NDOT.

User avatar
Patamon
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Patamon » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:37 pm

Eric I don't think the problem is the nunber of passes (35K) It's the uncertainty in trying to figure out how many passes you'll need, 7 months before the event. I know for our camp, which is a 70 person camp with tons of experienced burners who almost all have a decade of burns, its still impossible, in Feburary, to know what the carpooling/truck/driving situation is going to be in late August.

That leaves two choices...

(A) get as many vehicles passes as you can, in February, and then sort it all out once you get to next summer.

Or...

(B) attempt some Rube Goldberg mathematics in order to estimate how many passes you'll need, get those passes, hope for the best, and be stressed out for the next 7 months as to whether your camp has enough for everyone.


If 90% of the experienced theme camps go with option (A), that leaves maybe 5,000 vehicle passes for the other 40,000 burners once the regular sales begin.
Last edited by Patamon on Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mudpuppy000
Posts: 1552
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:54 pm
Burning Since: 2009
Camp Name: THE BELLIGERENT GAP
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by mudpuppy000 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:38 pm

Ok, so I'm sure lots of people carpool and all that, but do you know who you're driving in with in January/February when tickets go on sale? No? Ok better buy a car pass when I buy a ticket. Voila, all the car passes are gone with the first 35k tickets. The rest of the people get stuck wondering if they should even buy a ticket if it's critical for them to have a vehicle.

Misti
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:20 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Location: Utah

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Misti » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:27 pm

I would pay quite a bit more than $40 to pitch in to have Jungo made drivable instead.... this would cut traffic through the bottleneck by offering another route and would shorten our drive by a lot.
Two roads in and maybe a zig zag back and forth like cattle pens to get to the gate would probably get the numbers on the road down enough for people to be happy.

As it is now, i forsee people in the early sales hoarding passes and more people under or unprepared to be able to fit in a carpool vehicle.
My family faces possibly not going since with the RV being transportation and camp we would have the option of waiting until a few weeks before for rain or rushing to figure out plans.. I am too much of a planner to be able to do that.

User avatar
TT120
Posts: 1760
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:43 pm
Burning Since: 2012
Camp Name: Orphans TOO!
Location: Sacramento, CA.
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by TT120 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:40 pm

Patamon wrote:Eric I don't think the problem is the nunber of passes (35K) It's the uncertainty in trying to figure out how many passes you'll need, 7 months before the event. I know for our camp, which is a 70 person camp with tons of experienced burners who almost all have a decade of burns, its still impossible, in Feburary, to know what the carpooling/truck/driving situation is going to be in late August.

That leaves two choices...

(A) get as many vehicles passes as you can, in February, and then sort it all out once you get to next summer.

Or...

(B) attempt some Rube Goldberg mathematics in order to estimate how many passes you'll need, get those passes, hope for the best, and be stressed out for the next 7 months as to whether your camp has enough for everyone.


If 90% of the experienced theme camps go with option (A), that leaves maybe 5,000 vehicle passes for the other 40,000 burners once the regular sales begin.
This is correct. Everyone is going to grab as many passes as they can and then sort it out later. Even if STEP is going to handle passes as well as tickets, once everyone figures out how they're getting there and don't need the pass, how many of those people are going to go through the trouble of selling them back or to someone else if it's only a $40 loss. Some will I'm sure. Most wont.
mudpuppy000 wrote:Ok, so I'm sure lots of people carpool and all that, but do you know who you're driving in with in January/February when tickets go on sale? No? Ok better buy a car pass when I buy a ticket. Voila, all the car passes are gone with the first 35k tickets. The rest of the people get stuck wondering if they should even buy a ticket if it's critical for them to have a vehicle.
Also correct. I sure don't want to deal with the angst of spending $380 on a ticket without knowing if I can even get there until 2 weeks before.

I didn't see very much carpooling in my neck of the woods last year. Most people came in their own cars. 1.9 people per car sounds too high from what I saw last year. I'm probably wrong tho....
Life's a bitch, then you go to Burning Man - Unjonharley
We welcome the stranger, but that doesn't mean we have to like them, nor they us, and that's alright. - AntiM

W6BJD

User avatar
Captain Goddammit
Posts: 8368
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am
Burning Since: 2000
Camp Name: First Camp
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:46 pm

Well fine, they have to get control over the number of vehicles.
To make it even remotely fair there should be only a certain proportional number of VPs available to the directed ticket sales people so they can't grab half to most of the passes, like is about to happen.
I mean really, what happens when VPs are all taken before you get your ticket?
Exactly what the fuck happens?
Let's say you try your best but lose out in the Great Ticket Grab. You are able to get a Craigslist or step ticket. But not a VP.

What the fuck happens?

Defend this bullshit fucked up program all you want, we all know it's a bunch of shit.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

User avatar
unjonharley
Posts: 10315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
Location: Salem Or.

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:48 pm

what the goddamitt said..

User avatar
kiss-o-matic
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 10:09 pm
Burning Since: 2012
Location: Chicago

Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by kiss-o-matic » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:54 pm

trilobyte wrote: @Captain Goddammit - as I've said in a couple places, it's necessary for Burning Man to get their arms around and have some control over the number of vehicles coming to the event. Many push their vehicles to capacity, but not everyone does.
Well said. Entry and Exodus are still pretty clear in my mind (entry, especially). I went to great lengths to get there early and actually have some sleep the first night, as I was in that volatile demographic, also known as "a couple". That went over like a lead balloon, and the results that ensued are about what you'd expect, unfortunately. If they can get less vehicles in that line, it's a win. The ticket prices didn't go up either. I don't see what all the tears are about.

Post Reply

Return to “2014 Tickets Discussion”