Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

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unjonharley
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:00 pm

everybody know, the lamp lighters, art builders, theme camps, sound camps and more are guaranteed tickets.. I happened last year over the big ticket hub bub..

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:04 pm

Then you didn't read what I said.

Unless only a proportional percentage of VPs are available to the first-access directed ticket sales people, they will get half to two-thirds of the available VPs. That leaves not enough for the general ticket sales.

And what if despite your best effort, LUCK dictates you miss out in the ticket grab, so you have to buy one later on craigslist or STEP - but you can't get a VP?

And OK let's say that all works out. How will the lines be any shorter, with the same number of vehicles we had last year?
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:15 pm

A (driver) person would be stupid to buy a ticket if they can not get a car pass to go with it..

No I will not pick you up along the road. Stranger to stranger is to dangerous.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by BBadger » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:54 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Well fine, they have to get control over the number of vehicles.
To make it even remotely fair there should be only a certain proportional number of VPs available to the directed ticket sales people so they can't grab half to most of the passes, like is about to happen.
I mean really, what happens when VPs are all taken before you get your ticket?
Exactly what the fuck happens?
Let's say you try your best but lose out in the Great Ticket Grab. You are able to get a Craigslist or step ticket. But not a VP.

What the fuck happens?

Defend this bullshit fucked up program all you want, we all know it's a bunch of shit.
I'm thinking that it might be part of the plan. I'm not sure what the final impact will be though.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by ranger magnum » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:00 pm

Regardless of its purpose or intent, its a bad idea. You want to reduce vehicle traffic, cap the population. But the org wants to make as much money as possible, so capping the population is not in their best interest. We will never be told where exactly the 1.4 million dollars the VP sales generate goes, but if you are gonna sell me bullshit, tell me its bullshit. I'm a big boy, I can handle it.


It will sorry itself out, much like the ill– fated lottery fiasco did. But my confidence in the org is falling...
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FIGJAM » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:02 pm

My confidence in burner attitudes is faltering! :(
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by BBadger » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:15 pm

ranger magnum wrote:Regardless of its purpose or intent, its a bad idea. You want to reduce vehicle traffic, cap the population. But the org wants to make as much money as possible, so capping the population is not in their best interest. We will never be told where exactly the 1.4 million dollars the VP sales generate goes, but if you are gonna sell me bullshit, tell me its bullshit. I'm a big boy, I can handle it.

It will sorry itself out, much like the ill– fated lottery fiasco did. But my confidence in the org is falling...
Give me a fucking break. This is not the lottery or anything close. The number of passes is half the number of tickets, roughly the same as attendee/car ratio that already exists. With a STEP-like program in place it is not going to be hard to redistribute these tickets once people start consolidating their rides in the 6 months after the tickets are sold ("oh look, I'm going to ride with my friend, instant $40 back I can spend on booze or gas!). And if passes run out? They'll probably just release some more. Also if they just wanted more money they could have just raised the price $20 on each ticket for a guaranteed pay-off and people would've been just taking it as the cost of the ticket -- without all the whining that always ensues.

The only thing the same is the same endless speculative whining we hear every year from Burners the moment something changes. That "regardless of its purpose or intent" just says it all.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Odie » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:01 pm

from FigJam,
One ticket, one vehicle pass= no problem.

I encourage everyone to buy two tickets and two passes, then BURN one of the passes!!!


Now this is a way to eliminate BMorg from controlling admission, buy as many passes as you can, then horde or burn, that denies others from entry. Now you got people with tickets that now come with no ability for entry. lol population contol that works better than birth control and a whole lotta pissed off ticket holders.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by lucky420 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:34 am

BBadger for the win!

Seriously people quit crying and quit spouting off about hoarding v passes (those who are seriously considering it)


*cue soothing music* everything will be fine...
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Dr awkwarD » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:23 am

It's total bullshit that BMorg is trying to solve the traffic problems that we all bitched about so loudly last year. Here are some alternative ideas:
  • You know, rather than try to sell us traffic passes, they should just shoot every other person that drives up to the gate. Right in the head. Afterwards, BMorg can gift their cars and camp gear to artists in need of supplies.
  • Make the theme "Parking Lot Hijinks." Encourage as many people as possible to bring their cars. Draw parking lines on the playa. Tailgate.
  • Just leave it to the community to figure out there are too many cars. Let them vote on a Council of Elders with the power to banish burners (and their vehicles) into the desert. Serve popcorn at the mob violence that follows.
  • Give away parking passes for free with the purchase of a supersized McBurner™ meal.
  • Announce that passes will be required this year, and that they'll cost less than half what most burners consume in beer on a given weekend. Distribute them for free a week later to those who haven't died of heart attacks or bitched themselves to death.
Again, I just want to point out that it's total bullshit,this idea that was announced 72 hours ago, and that we don't know how it's going to actually play out. I don't know what they're thinking meddling with this festival that I'm entitled to go to.

How dare they. The nerve.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:51 am

Frida Be You & Me

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:34 am

Dr. Pyro wrote:Last year the vehicle I was in had eight people total in it. It seems to me that if you have five or more people in a single vehicle not only should you be able to bypass the $40 fee but also have a dedicated mega-car-pool lane. I mean if Larry really wanted to sell the product, uh, I mean concept of responsible carpooling. But of course he doesn't, he just wants more money and can blame it on the NDOT.
Doc, that's brilliant. I'd love to see financial incentives for responsible carpooling.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:42 am

trilobyte wrote:
Dr. Pyro wrote:Last year the vehicle I was in had eight people total in it. It seems to me that if you have five or more people in a single vehicle not only should you be able to bypass the $40 fee but also have a dedicated mega-car-pool lane. I mean if Larry really wanted to sell the product, uh, I mean concept of responsible carpooling. But of course he doesn't, he just wants more money and can blame it on the NDOT.
Doc, that's brilliant. I'd love to see financial incentives for responsible carpooling.
I would put the seats back into the van.. Instead of two seats it would have seven.

What say LARRY?

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:00 am

@unjonharley - they are not guaranteed tickets. They are given a chance to participate in the directed group sale, but that's not a guarantee they'll be able to get tickets.

@BBadger - it certainly is getting people to give thought to their transportation logistics, if nothing else.

@ranger magnum - I have every confidence that no matter what happened with this year's plans (including no change at all), people would have complained and call bullshit. Maybe it's me, but I'd think a big boy could handle change and give things a shot before losing it and start whinging on the internet. While the way it's being implemented isn't necessarily the way I'd do it, I think it'll all work out in the end.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by CapSmashy » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:26 am

Dr. Pyro wrote:Last year the vehicle I was in had eight people total in it. It seems to me that if you have five or more people in a single vehicle not only should you be able to bypass the $40 fee but also have a dedicated mega-car-pool lane. I mean if Larry really wanted to sell the product, uh, I mean concept of responsible carpooling. But of course he doesn't, he just wants more money and can blame it on the NDOT.
trilobyte wrote:Doc, that's brilliant. I'd love to see financial incentives for responsible carpooling.
I think a dedicated HOV lane would be fantastic, ut you are not considering a very important fact about this. Hippy Buses.

One packed to the gills hippy bus will significantly fuck up your lane productivity numbers in regards to getting participants from one side of the gate to the other on their way to greeters. Yes, for the really bad ones, we do have the D lot option, but all of us out there in the lanes secretly lust after being the one that catches the stow away. The HOV lane scenario would concentrate these hippy buses into a single lane since they are usually rolling 15 to 20 hippies deep inside. Do you really want to be surrounded and trapped in a lane with a bunch of Hippy Buses Doc? :mrgreen:
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by ACfromSAC » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:30 am

Dr. Pyro wrote:Last year the vehicle I was in had eight people total in it. It seems to me that if you have five or more people in a single vehicle not only should you be able to bypass the $40 fee but also have a dedicated mega-car-pool lane. I mean if Larry really wanted to sell the product, uh, I mean concept of responsible carpooling. But of course he doesn't, he just wants more money and can blame it on the NDOT.
Genius. Express lane for vehicles with 6(?) or more would probably cut FAR more traffic than a $40 parking pass ever will. If I could skip entry and exodus lines by loading up extra passengers, I'd probably rent a trailer to haul my supplies rather than packing my vehicle to max capacity and only carrying an extra passenger or two. DOC for the win!

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:45 am

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the logistics of an HOV lane (for a start, it would be nearly impossible to stop people from abusing it, and I can only imagine the road rage people would feel if they're sitting patiently in a miles-long gate queue and then they see some jackass go barreling down the HOV lane with only 2 people in the car. I was thinking more about the financial incentives for responsible carpooling.

And ACfromSAC, there is no possible way to allow participant vehicles to skip all the lines altogether. Aside from the issue of policing and enforcement, the number of vehicles that are already involved means skipping all lines is already impossible. The only way to achieve that would be to use the Burner Express bus to Reno or SF.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:50 am

trilobyte wrote:Yeah, I'm not so sure about the logistics of an HOV lane (for a start, it would be nearly impossible to stop people from abusing it, and I can only imagine the road rage people would feel if they're sitting patiently in a miles-long gate queue and then they see some jackass go barreling down the HOV lane with only 2 people in the car. I was thinking more about the financial incentives for responsible carpooling.
Its still some thing to think about.. I could pick up prearranged campers alone my rout.. Maybe Cedarville..I could even pay the road tax for an express lane..
Last edited by unjonharley on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:52 am

I'll pay the $40. But if I pay $800 for a pair of tickets that I can't use because I couldn't snag one of those VPs I'm gonna be more than a little upset.

That's my problem with this program.

At this point I'm reconsidering even bothering with Burning Man anymore. I'm not going to risk $800 buying tickets I don't even get any guarantee I can use. Fuck that.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:58 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:I'll pay the $40. But if I pay $800 for a pair of tickets that I can't use because I couldn't snag one of those VPs I'm gonna be more than a little upset.

That's my problem with this program.
Not to worry Cap. Last year when the theme camps started crying there team was'nt getting tickets.. Larry pulled omg tickets out of his ass..

Eric is the goat here.. If your pissed, go for Eric.. He stated that there were only 35 00 vehicles at BM last year..
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by ygmir » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:11 am

I'd bet, Cap'n, that there will be a VP option with ticket purchase.
the folks doing this, are pretty smart. It may seem a lot is "up in the air", and well, it may be. But, I have faith that they'll get it all worked out in plenty of time.


I have to wonder if a long term, big picture of all the changes and such, that revolve around "access", are aimed at moving public opinion towards accepting a change of venue, at some point? Just thinking out loud, but, it would work that way.....or could.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:18 am

ygmir wrote:I have to wonder if a long term, big picture of all the changes and such, that revolve around "access", are aimed at moving public opinion towards accepting a change of venue, at some point? Just thinking out loud, but, it would work that way.....or could.
Perhaps a tad paranoid, Yggy...

Anyway, you work with Gate. Do you think the quoted number of vehicles from last year is wrong?
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:28 am

They want to grow the event without increasing the number of vehicles. That's idiotic.
That means the size and weight of the vehicles will have to increase.
That will tear up the road more than a higher number of lighter vehicles.
That combined with the well known fact that everyone already is carpooling and using almost every vehicle to max capacity makes me doubt the real worth of this.

If I don't get tickets and a pass in the initial public sale, I'm done. I'm not gonna pay $800 for STEP tickets only to be turned away at the gate. Sorry BMorg but fuck that, no deal.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by vargaso » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:40 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:Ok there's the fly-in people who rent cars to get to the playa.
Other than that who really shows up in a vehicle empty enough to carry someone else and all their gear? And how rare is that, if there's anyone?

How many threads are there about what to do with all this extra space in my vehicle?
How many threads about towing trailers and renting trucks and building racks to try to cram all your shit onto your vehicle?
In past years, I would arrive early in our van with all the supplies to help set up camp, while my wife would drive up mid-week with just a suitcase in the trunk due to child care issues. It happens a lot. I'd say 8-10 people in our camp in 2012 arrived mid-week driving solo, with just a tent, food and clothes. Most were virgins and we told them, just bring necessities, the infrastructure will be there.

I'm wary of the 35K limit, but I don't mind charging for vehicles.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by ygmir » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:01 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
ygmir wrote:I have to wonder if a long term, big picture of all the changes and such, that revolve around "access", are aimed at moving public opinion towards accepting a change of venue, at some point? Just thinking out loud, but, it would work that way.....or could.
Perhaps a tad paranoid, Yggy...

Anyway, you work with Gate. Do you think the quoted number of vehicles from last year is wrong?
I don't know I'd call it paranoid, Fish. Speculative? Conspiratorial?....perhaps. but who doesn't love a good conspiracy?

vehicles last year: I stopped counting at 34,588, so, I'm not real sure............but I'd say ORG estimates are pretty close.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by CapSmashy » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:13 pm

trilobyte wrote:Yeah, I'm not so sure about the logistics of an HOV lane (for a start, it would be nearly impossible to stop people from abusing it, and I can only imagine the road rage people would feel if they're sitting patiently in a miles-long gate queue and then they see some jackass go barreling down the HOV lane with only 2 people in the car. I was thinking more about the financial incentives for responsible carpooling.
It would be a logistical nightmare for gate staff.

In my humble opinion, the only way it could really be accomplished effectively would be to have a split off up near where you turn off the pavement and have a completely separate HOV entry area that is completely separated from the other traffic lanes. You would have to have staff members at the split point verifying that each vehicle taking the HOV lane option had the minimum required number of passengers.

HOV lane vehicles would still need to have access to Will Call, so you would need more staffers in the Will Call lot area enforcing the HOV lane requirements as vehicles departed from the Will Call area.

Lane access to move HOV vehicles from the entry point to D lot for the problem children.

Just running it through my head in regards to how the entry plaza area would need to be laid out and the number of people required to staff to make it all work is giving me a headache. Throw in a bunch of impatient, cracked out drivers to thoroughly ass rape the system is crossing over into black out migraine territory.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by CapSmashy » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:14 pm

ygmir wrote:I don't know I'd call it paranoid, Fish. Speculative? Conspiratorial?....perhaps. but who doesn't love a good conspiracy?

vehicles last year: I stopped counting at 34,588, so, I'm not real sure............but I'd say ORG estimates are pretty close.
They had "experts" on site making the estimates but I do not recall interacting with any of these experts on any of my gate shifts.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by ckluehtnus » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:15 pm

If the attempt is to reduce the traffic situation than just limit the total number of vehicles allowed into the event to something like 20000.

If you are not reducing the number of vehicles than you are not going to create any relief for the traffic situation unless a better plan is created for dealing with the traffic.

Aside from that comment...

Here are some ideas.

1. Each ticket purchased has an additional $20 fee and includes 1/2 of a vehicle pass. Therefore you just need (at least) 2 tickets in a car for entry to the event. It's unbiased and forces carpooling, which most burners already do. Perhaps allow late entry for single driver vehicles for an additional $20 fee starting Tuesday if the vehicle capacity has not yet been reached.

2. Each ticket purchased includes a vehicle pass and the tickets cost an additional $40. When you arrive at the gate in a car with more than one person each person who has carpooled with the driver receives a refund of $40 since they did not arrive in their own vehicle. Thus you provide monetary incentive for carpooling, which most burners do already. And you provide a means for people to show up to the event mid week to meet up with their friends/camp the ability to attend this awesome community based event.

3. Limit the number of vehicles to 35000 and just charge a $40 vehicle entry fee upon arrival. Thus you provide monetary incentive for carpooling, which most burners do already. And you provide a means for people to show up to the event mid week to meet up with their friends/camp the ability to attend this awesome community based event.

Pre-selling vehicle admission separate from the tickets doesn't make any sense at an event like this so many months in advance, there are too many variables to be encountered within such a large time frame.

Surely there is a better system than has been proposed that can improve the traffic situation and help pay for damage to the roadways that will not prevent people from attending the event.

Anyway what is the statistic for single driver cars entering burning man? (Not including BLM, Rangers and infrastructure related vehicles)

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:37 pm

If you've read the Captain's posts on this subject, you'll know that he won't set out unless he's assured the spot when he gets there, which "keep allowing people in, until the cap is reach" doesn't allow. Besides, having gate take something extra (the vehicle pass) is a whole lot less complicated than having gate sell passes.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by ygmir » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:43 pm

CapSmashy wrote:
ygmir wrote:I don't know I'd call it paranoid, Fish. Speculative? Conspiratorial?....perhaps. but who doesn't love a good conspiracy?

vehicles last year: I stopped counting at 34,588, so, I'm not real sure............but I'd say ORG estimates are pretty close.
They had "experts" on site making the estimates but I do not recall interacting with any of these experts on any of my gate shifts.
they were not playing "Battleship".....

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