Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:47 pm

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:52 pm

@ckluehtnus - hello, and welcome to ePlaya! Feel free to head on over to the Greeter's Station and post an introduction when you get a chance.

The downside of all three of your ideas is that they don't really get anybody to put much thought into their transportation logistics. I think that the intention was to get people thinking about vehicle and traffic issues in advance. Advanced sales makes people think about it in advance, and while I don't personally care for the idea of a cap (unless there's some state requirement), it at least makes people think more about it earlier on in the process. From a logistics standpoint, I think that kind of planning is needed since when it comes to booking rental vehicles it's often done months and months ahead of time. Some people may already be pretty organized and not have much room for improvement, but others may think of possibilities. Things like a camp renting a truck and other campmates taking the express bus thing, instead of renting 6 cars with 1-2 people in them apiece.

If people can improve upon what they're doing, great. If people can't improve upon their transportation and logistics, fine - 35K should be plenty IMO.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Eric » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:10 pm

unjonharley wrote:Eric is the goat here.. If your pissed, go for Eric.. He stated that there were only 35 00 vehicles at BM last year..
Apparently you're not paying attention to what I wrote - I never said how many vehicles where out there, because I couldn't find the official estimate; I said
the "typical" (read: "average") vehicle is already carrying "1.9 humans" into the event - that means that almost half of the vehicles coming into the event already have 2 or more people in them, while just slightly over half has 1 person.
and
The 35,000 passes is more than enough based on the number of tickets being sold and how people have traveled in the past
.

There are 61,000 tickets for sale this year, at the average passenger count of 1.9 people per vehicle, that's 32,105 vehicles (based on last years averages). There are passes available for almost 3,000 vehicles more than that average. Persoanlly I think there could be changes made that would have cut the drama (buy 1-2 tickets, allowed 1 pass; buy 3-4 tickets in the early sale, allowed 2 passes; and no cap), but that's not my decision.

Now, feel free to go back to your "find any reason to freak out over a change at Burning Man" session.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by trilobyte » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:28 pm

@Captain Goddammit - I'd be mad too if I wound up with tickets I couldn't use for the lack of a vehicle pass. If you're going to use the 'why bother' mentality, then why did you bother going to Burning Man last year? If I remember correctly, you didn't get tickets in the initial sale. From the start there was a chance you might not get tickets... why did you bother? Vehicle passes shouldn't be that difficult to come by, based on those published numbers.

@unjonharley - a couple things to point out. The year you're thinking was 2012 (not last year), and the OMG sale was a part of the original plan in 2012, and was announced before the drawing ever took place. What ended up happening that really helped the situation was canceling the end-of-March open sale, and instead directing those tickets to theme camps, mutant vehicles, and groups.

@ygmir - it's worth pointing out a couple things. First, some of the vehicles that came in last year may well end up being vehicles that either don't need passes, or get their passes through some other means (departments, etc). And second, this year is likely to have a lower population than last year's event. If you recall last year got too close for comfort, with there being a window of time where people were waiting at the gate. My understanding is that there will definitely not be a repeat of that this year, our peak population will be lower.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:35 pm

Eric wrote:Now, feel free to go back to your "find any reason to freak out over a change at Burning Man" session.
24/7/51 here at eplaya...
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by mudpuppy000 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:46 pm

The "freak out" was predictable once they put limits on tickets/passes. The year the tickets sold out they still had them for sale in July if I remember correctly. Next year and every year after it's sold out almost instantly because people want to make sure they can get in. I doubt that there's that many more people over the cap that want to go, it's just people's perceptions have changed.

I'm sure there's lots of other ways they could have encouraged people to carpool besides putting a hard cap on the passes. Maybe half a day of EA for vehicles with x passengers in them.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:47 pm

Last year I knew once I shelled out $800 for the tickets I scraped up, at least I knew I could redeem them for entry.
Now let's say the same thing happens with this year's plan. Do I pay $800 for tickets without a vehicle pass?
Hell no I don't. For that kind of money I want to at least know I'm getting in!
What's unreasonable about that?
The reasons for this new hassle seem ok but in reality this whole thing accomplishes nothing.
It doesn't reduce vehicle traffic. It won't prevent road wear and tear.
When the event grows the vehicles will just have to be bigger and heavier.
And guys like me now have to gamble that our $800 ends up worth the paper the potentially useless tickets are printed on.

No I don't like it. Not a bit.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:05 pm

So if I buy a ticket in good faith? If I can not get in for the lack of a VP??

The smart ass answer is.. Why did I go to Burning Man last year??????..

I am thinking if two monitors feel they need to be snarky they should not use there position to do so..

Eric you said the same thing I did..

To the other one.. Our Captain has out did himself many times over for Burning Man.. Your snark at him is uncalled for..

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:11 pm

It's ok I'm throwing plenty of rocks, I can handle being challenged on it and no one can say Trilobyte isn't extremely impartial and level-headed. I'd never say differently.
But I sure don't like this new system. They can have the damn $40, I don't care about that. They can't have my $800 unless they ARE gonna let me through the gate!
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Dr awkwarD » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:22 pm

This thread reminds me of this story: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/efft/efft71.htm
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by TT120 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:19 pm

I agree with the Captain. I've taken the day of ticket sales off work and will be sitting at my computer at noon waiting to get my ticket. Hopefully there will be a VP available when I buy my ticket or I probably won't buy one. I'm not going to drop $400 on a ticket that I can't use cause I can't get there. I can't rely on getting a VP through other means and don't want to get stuck with a ticket I can't even sell the day before the event begins.

Carpooling is not an option for me as I'm not one of those 20 somethings that can live in the desert for a week with just a backpack and a couple jugs of water. There will not be a carpooling option for me that can carry me and my camp stuff out there.

There "might" be some VP's available as we get closer to the event but I don't think there will very many. Most people that find they have an extra one will just toss it in the trash and take the $40 loss rather than go through the trouble of selling it.

I'll just have to see how it goes.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by vargaso » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:23 pm

Seems pretty safe to buy a ticket even without a VP, because there's a very good chance of selling it to STEP if you end up not finding a VP. If I decide to go this year, that's my plan.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by MrBeardy » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:28 pm

[quote="trilobyte"]@Captain Goddammit - I'd be mad too if I wound up with tickets I couldn't use for the lack of a vehicle pass. If you're going to use the 'why bother' mentality, then why did you bother going to Burning Man last year? If I remember correctly, you didn't get tickets in the initial sale. From the start there was a chance you might not get tickets... why did you bother? Vehicle passes shouldn't be that difficult to come by, based on those published numbers.
[/quote]


I agree 99% with this statement, there will most certainly be enough vehicle passes for everyone. The only flaw I foresee is that everyone is going to hord the sold out passes till the last minute when they have their travel plans secured. $40 dollars is an easy cost to eat, so even if people don't have the need for one, they will likely just hold on to one in case their slacker friends need one. I hope I'm wrong but from experiences with other festivals, this is usually the plan of attack...time will tell and hopefully everything works like a charm.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:45 pm

So, what if instead of just granting you additional passes at the time you buy your tickets, you pay for the second pass, but only actually get it once the all the tickets have been sold and it is determined that there are enough passes to fill that order?
I'm not completely sure how that would interact with credit cards, but this is a hypothetical, so we'll pretend that there's an easy way for that to happen.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:45 pm

MrBeardy wrote:
trilobyte wrote:@Captain Goddammit - I'd be mad too if I wound up with tickets I couldn't use for the lack of a vehicle pass. If you're going to use the 'why bother' mentality, then why did you bother going to Burning Man last year? If I remember correctly, you didn't get tickets in the initial sale. From the start there was a chance you might not get tickets... why did you bother? Vehicle passes shouldn't be that difficult to come by, based on those published numbers.

I agree 99% with this statement, there will most certainly be enough vehicle passes for everyone. The only flaw I foresee is that everyone is going to hord the sold out passes till the last minute when they have their travel plans secured. $40 dollars is an easy cost to eat, so even if people don't have the need for one, they will likely just hold on to one in case their slacker friends need one. I hope I'm wrong but from experiences with other festivals, this is usually the plan of attack...time will tell and hopefully everything works like a charm.
So you're really kind of agreeing with me!
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by MrBeardy » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:13 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
MrBeardy wrote:
trilobyte wrote:@Captain Goddammit - I'd be mad too if I wound up with tickets I couldn't use for the lack of a vehicle pass. If you're going to use the 'why bother' mentality, then why did you bother going to Burning Man last year? If I remember correctly, you didn't get tickets in the initial sale. From the start there was a chance you might not get tickets... why did you bother? Vehicle passes shouldn't be that difficult to come by, based on those published numbers.

I agree 99% with this statement, there will most certainly be enough vehicle passes for everyone. The only flaw I foresee is that everyone is going to hord the sold out passes till the last minute when they have their travel plans secured. $40 dollars is an easy cost to eat, so even if people don't have the need for one, they will likely just hold on to one in case their slacker friends need one. I hope I'm wrong but from experiences with other festivals, this is usually the plan of attack...time will tell and hopefully everything works like a charm.
So you're really kind of agreeing with me!
I'm a little concerned about the new process, yes, however I am not going to let it stop me from working to get my hands on a ticket and VP. Still confused how the passes are going to limit traffic since about 1.9 people averaged per car last year, and a similar ratio of passes is being distributed this year(1.7 people per car), but shoot does waiting in line for even 8 hours really matter that much looking back?

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:21 pm

They aren't meant to limit traffic--certainly not this year.

Perhaps seeing how it works out, before they try to put the squeeze on, is part of the plan.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:31 pm

Bus service out of Reno would be stepping on car rental toes.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Eric » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:48 pm

I'm just wondering if all the people saying "I'm not getting a ticket unless I'm guaranteed a VP" realize that the tickets are absolutely guaranteed to sell out, and, based on last year, the re-sale market will be much smaller than in the past; whereas the VP's are a brand new thing, with a limit that seems to be self-imposed by the Org, and could change before the event. I have no insider knowledge, but based on the numbers released (# of tickets for sale, average people per vehicle) it seems to me that you're way more likely to get a vehicle pass & get entry than you are to get a ticket in the resale market, and that getting a ticket but being unable to get in is a theoretically real, but highly unlikely scenario (and a PR nightmare that would make the 2012 lottery look like a beginners class)
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by oly14 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:04 pm

Eric wrote:... it seems to me that you're way more likely to get a vehicle pass & get entry than you are to get a ticket in the resale market...
It will be interesting to see if this proves true. I guess we'll know in 6 weeks. I'm going to take my chances in the Individual sale and will likely buy a ticket even if the vehicle passes are sold out. That being said, I would be really disappointed if I couldn't bring my newly acquired box truck (with two people inside). As others have said, tent camping isn't going to cut it for me.
Eric wrote:... getting a ticket but being unable to get in is a theoretically real, but highly unlikely scenario (and a PR nightmare that would make the 2012 lottery look like a beginners class)
As a first timer last year that had to get a ticket in the resale market, I was concerned and fretted over getting a ticket until one was located. As veterans told me, if you want to go, you will find a ticket. With VP's being new this year, we don't have any history to use as a gauge. VP's may indeed be available in the resale market and/or at the 11th hour but having a ticket in hand with out a definitive way to get in will cause sleepless nights, at least for me.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Sham » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:10 pm

Keep in mind that vehicle passes are AIMED at keeping the cars down and encouraging car pooling. If everyone tries to get an extra passenger or two in their vehicle, then it will all work out well. If every car has 2 or three people in it, then the VP's will not sell out. Even if some or most have 2 people, then it will all be ok. Do the math.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FossaFerox » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:16 pm

Guys, I seriously don't think the passes are designed to LIMIT traffic, not as a hard limit. From my perspective, what they're going to do is get people planning their rides NOW. Hell, if they simply had a field to fill out when you registered for the sale that said "How many cars will your camp bring this year?" it would probably have the same result. Thinking about how many cars you will NEED to bring would be enough to get quite a few people to plan ahead and inadvertently economize. Tack on a $40 charge and suddenly people are also incentivized.

If the org raised ticket prices $20 no one would question it. Try to raise the same amount of money while getting people to think/plan ahead and encouraging (not forcing) people to economize and suddenly everyone loses their fucking mind.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:21 pm

last year the police bundles and cut down vehicles..

this year we are asked to bundle and cut down vehicles..

so what is BMorg's :idea: plan :?:

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FossaFerox » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:24 pm

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say... less vehicles?
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:26 pm

FossaFerox wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb here and say... less vehicles?
that is very black humor.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FIGJAM » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:56 pm

I'm not worried about getting what I need to get to the playa.

IMHO if the Borg fell for this road wear crap, then they were conned.

There's no way that our one weeks travel over those roads equaled the wear and tear from the heavy trucks that use to use that road all year from the Empire plant.

I wonder if they had to pay an extra road service tax.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by TT120 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:59 pm

I wonder how many of the pre-sale and directed sale people are going to buy a tickes and NOT buy a VP to go with it? I wouldn't.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Eric » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:16 pm

TT120 wrote:I wonder how many of the pre-sale and directed sale people are going to buy a tickes and NOT buy a VP to go with it? I wouldn't.
If my camp gets to go through directed sales again this year, I'm not buying a VP. Our camp lead will buy 1 for his two tickets. Some people do actually have their rides planned out this far in advance, as shocking as that seems to be around here, and I doubt that the 10 core members of our camp are the only ones on the entire playa who have a set ride situation. While there is a chance I may be totally wrong on how this works out, to me it looks like I'm seeing a lot of panic over nothing. We shall see.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by dj_john69 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:28 pm

Fucking BMORG fucking shit up once again !!! Great job bozos. You guys decided to open up the flood gates on capacity previously...worked out perfect, huh? Now, let's fix our fuck up and charge some bullshit "fee" because NDOT said so?? I doubt it. (Even though it would be nice to have burners cover the road repairs that my Nevada tax dollars cover each year but adding a new fee is LAME.)

Here's an idea...RAISE tix up to $1000 next year and use the extra $600 per person <70,000x$600=$42 million) to add 2 new lanes from Nixon to Gerlach. Then, drop capacity back down to 40,000 people. PLEASE don't raise the capacity to over 70,000+ !!!!!

I remember my 1st year on the Playa, i paid UNDER $40 to enter. Now, i have to pay $40 to park my vehicle.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FIGJAM » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:26 pm

Normally when big business brings millions of dollars of revenue to a state they get huge tax breaks.

I wonder where our tax breaks are? :?
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