Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

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ranger magnum
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by ranger magnum » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:39 pm

trilobyte wrote:@unjonharley - they are not guaranteed tickets. They are given a chance to participate in the directed group sale, but that's not a guarantee they'll be able to get tickets.

@BBadger - it certainly is getting people to give thought to their transportation logistics, if nothing else.

@ranger magnum - I have every confidence that no matter what happened with this year's plans (including no change at all), people would have complained and call bullshit. Maybe it's me, but I'd think a big boy could handle change and give things a shot before losing it and start whinging on the internet. While the way it's being implemented isn't necessarily the way I'd do it, I think it'll all work out in the end.
Do you even read posts before you reply?

my post was nowhere near "losing it".

I'm certainly not whining. Not even close. And even if I were, isn't this the place to do it?

And if I'm not mistaken, I don't believe I said I couldn't handle this change. I, like many, think its total bullshit and am stating my displeasure. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Im not looking for your approval on my opinions.

Like I said and you reiterated, it will work out in the end. If you want to drink their KoolAid, go ahead. While ultimately I will have to as well, I won't take it willingly.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by pink » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:58 pm

TT120 wrote:I wonder how many of the pre-sale and directed sale people are going to buy a tickes and NOT buy a VP to go with it? I wouldn't.
I'm going to buy one ticket & one vehicle pass should we get directed tickets again. The person that rides with me will not buy a vehicle pass. I know of three couples that will buy one vehicle pass for two tickets. So yeah, we are planning already and have been planning our camp since last year ended.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Koi Kichi » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:48 pm

If we drive a pickup towing an RV are we one or two vehicles? Just curious if there is an official definition of vehicle so I know for sure how many passes we will need.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Eric » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:24 pm

Koi Kichi wrote:If we drive a pickup towing an RV are we one or two vehicles? Just curious if there is an official definition of vehicle so I know for sure how many passes we will need.
According to the FAQ about Vehicle Passes on the Burning Blog, you only need a VP for your primary driving vehicle, not something that it's towing:
Burning Blog wrote:Q. Does a tow-behind trailer count as a vehicle for a Vehicle Pass?
A. No. Just your primary driving vehicle.

Q. Do I have to pay for a Vehicle Pass for my Mutant Vehicle?
A. If you are bringing your Mutant Vehicle in on a trailer, you do not need to have a Vehicle Pass for it. If you are driving it in, you need a Pass. Each stand-alone vehicle that drives through the gate must have a Vehicle Pass.
And, to attempt to calm people who think they will run out:
Q. Who has to purchase a Vehicle Pass?
A. All vehicles coming into the event must have a Vehicle Pass. They can be purchased online when you buy your tickets. There will be an initial allotment made for 35,000 Vehicle Passes.
This is new for the Org as well, I'm sure they're giving themselves room to allot more if hoarding actually becomes a problem. Releasing more if needed would also deal with anyone who thinks they're going to be clever and try to scalp VP's later.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Tiahaar » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:28 pm

I just look at it as if main sale tickets went up $47 this year (about what was expected, and don't forget that $7 service fee they are adding to the VP) and if you don't need a 'vehicle pass' you get a $47 discount. Because I could I've always gone the early sale route but may risk the main sale this time to save for diesel... :|
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by BBadger » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:14 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:They want to grow the event without increasing the number of vehicles. That's idiotic.
No it's not. There is nothing that fixes a ratio of occupants per vehicle.
That means the size and weight of the vehicles will have to increase.
That will tear up the road more than a higher number of lighter vehicles.
While damage to pavement as a function of axle weight goes up by the 4th power (more info; 2.5 in other studies), the major concentration of weight-related pavement damage is on vehicles in excess of 18,000 lbs per axle or so. States rarely even meter anything below that type of threshold, and the only vehicles that satisfy that will be large RVs, MVs being hauled in, heavy construction equipment, and maybe the occasional large truck transport. Perhaps those heavy vehicles are where the extra fees are coming from.

For most attendees, the added vehicle weight won't even come close to these heavy vehicle thresholds. Even if a single person increases the weight of the vehicle by 1000 lbs/person -- which is a lot -- you'd need a clown-car to make it matter. The main issue will be space. Maybe it'll mean people use a van rather than a car, or haul in a trailer with a truck. Still, that's chump change as far as weight goes, and trailers redistribute axle weight anyway. If trucks are needed, the people probably would've hauled in one anyway for the amount of supplies they need, and again, chump change in terms of weight.

What this also means is that this scheme really is about reducing the number of vehicles, not about a toll for some road damage as a function of weight.
That combined with the well known fact that everyone already is carpooling and using almost every vehicle to max capacity makes me doubt the real worth of this.
Then there shouldn't be much problem with the number of passes, provided that there is an easy mechanism to release passes back into the system like STEP. I'm also expecting there to be additional passes issued should "35,000" limit truly become a problem.

But what makes this all worth it? Let's look at how many fewer cars we'd have if we increase the occupant to car ratio. Assuming 65,000 attendees:

Ratio -> vehicles

1.9 -> ~34,000 (current ratio)
2.0 -> 32,500
2.1 -> ~31,000
2.2 -> ~29,500
...
2.5 -> 26,000

For increasing the ratio even by an average of 0.1 person, we get about 1,500 vehicles shaved off, or about a 2.3% reduction in overall traffic. It doesn't sound like much, but with larger groups having to settle on a single entrance date, I speculate that we can also expect that a large share of the reduction in traffic will occur during peak periods.
If I don't get tickets and a pass in the initial public sale, I'm done. I'm not gonna pay $800 for STEP tickets only to be turned away at the gate. Sorry BMorg but fuck that, no deal.
Well perhaps there will be some sort of checkbox that says "I need a vehicle pass available with any STEP ticket offering."

You're also highlighting some of the benefits too: the fear of being stuck with an essentially useless ticket bottoms out the last-minute jump-in-the-car-I-just-got-a-fire-sale-ticket market. Now it'll be: "got my ride reserved with some friends and all I need is the ticket." People start planning rides in advance regardless of their ticket-holding status.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FIGJAM » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:43 am

The first thing the JRS says.

"Traffic is the greatest impediment to the growth and sustainability of Black Rock City. Burning Man is under pressure from the Bureau of Land Management and Nevada Department of Transportation to reduce the number of cars entering the event. Highways 447 and 34 are at max capacity during the event and we're being asked to pay for road damage caused by participant vehicles. Road travel represents 60% of the carbon emissions related to the event."

This looks like the main reason for the VP pass is road damage.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Canoe » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:53 am

35,000 x $40 = $1,400,000.00

hmmm

on top of, for rough figuring, 60,000 x $390 for $23,400,000.00
4.669
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by VultureChow » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:31 am

If you dropped the average ticket price by $50 and then made the vehicle fee $150 you'd come out with roughly the same economics as the current plan and achieve the stated goals while reducing the threat of hoarding or ineffective distribution. A single person in a single vehicle (like me) would essentially be paying a $100 ticket increase, while a couple in a car would have a $25 per person increase. The more people in the vehicle, the bigger savings. Plus $150 should be enough money to a) discourage hoarding and b) encourage resale.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:07 am

Well Bbadger you disagreed with me then went on to prove exactly what I said!

Everyone keeps looking at that 1.9 people per vehicle statistic and thinking in terms of rush hour commuting at home, as if all those cars must have empty back seats. Statistics often leave out important factors that weren't included. If your head is in the oven and your feet are frozen into a block of ice, statistics will tell you that on average, you're comfortable.

Look around at the gate and see how full the vast majority of vehicles are. More future burners in the same or fewer vehicles means more trucks - or more people bringing less supplies and art. More trucks = more road wear as compared to more lighter cars. That's some funny-tasting Kool-Aid.

And VultureChow, your plan can also be seen as penalizing the people who have fewer live people aboard because they are bringing more of all that stuff that makes BRC.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by VultureChow » Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:38 am

Captain, I know. Maybe there could be reduced price for people bringing MV's or a certain number of free passes for placed camps.

I'm taking at face value the claim by BM org that the total number of vehicles is a problem and that it imperils the event. Assuming that, you either need to reduce the overall number of attendees, or encourage mass transit and carpooling while discouraging singletons.

If it's merely a matter of raising funds for road repair, then you can just have an unlimited number of $40 passes and earmark the money for road repairs. Frankly, I think that's what they should have done this year. They'd have a great accounting of how many passes were sold, used, and when they were obtained and then could have used that baseline for potential quotas in future years. I think the system they came up with this year is going to be problematic.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by BigInSeattle » Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:50 am

New guy here...

I hear a lot of talk about entrance and exodus waits. I hear a lot of people complaining about how long it takes but what is it? An hour? All day?

If I show up on opening day what can I expect?

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:15 am

BigInSeattle wrote:New guy here...

I hear a lot of talk about entrance and exodus waits. I hear a lot of people complaining about how long it takes but what is it? An hour? All day?

If I show up on opening day what can I expect?
Any where from 0 to 8 hours in and out.. I don't think any one can give a time..

At time the lane will back up to 11 miles plus.. There is only one lane in and out
Don't let this scare you off.. Everybody gets in and out..

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by ckluehtnus » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:16 am

I agree my suggestions do nothing to make people arrange difficult travel plans, but one suggestion does require at least 2 people with a ticket per vehicle. So right there if you sell 70,000 tickets the number of cars is the same as last year. And it guarantees that each person has the same opportunity to enter the event as everyone else. And perhaps the next year it could be 3 tickets required to enter per vehicle....

The biggest most important aspect of the vehicle pass issue is:

When you buy a ticket for an event doesn't that mean you have also purchased the ability to get into the event?

Could I show up with a car full of people at Block rock city and assume we can just walk in if I don't have a VP?
Where do I park my car for the week?
How in the hell do I get all our gear inside?

If I purchase a ticket to a professional sporting event and show up at the gate - I am guaranteed that I can get in. However I might have to park far away if the parking is full. But the stadium isn't 100 miles deep into a desert and I don't have to bring enough supplies to survive for an entire week.

Granted I am closer this year to Black Rock City, but last year we drove 1000 miles to get there, if I had any thought I might not be able to get in I wouldn't have attended, and I have to say it's one of the best experiences I've had. I wan't to go again and again and again, I want to share it with others and bring my friends who haven't gone, I want them to have the same chance at attending the event as everyone else who purchases a ticket.

If the issue is really about controlling traffic I say the only fair way to do it is to determine how many admission tickets will be sold and then choose how many people BMORG wants to force to be in each car. Is it 2 people per car minimum, is it 3? Then require that many tickets/people at a minimum in the car when arriving at the gate and absorb the road fees into the cost of the tickets. It gives everyone equal chance to get in once they have purchased an admission ticket.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:40 am

"At this time" each vehicle "must" have one vehicle pass to enter Burning Man..

If the math is right "at this time" there will be enough passes.. If not I am sure some arrangement will be made..

The will be a ride share thread put up here on the E playa later this year..

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by jcliff » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:22 pm

I want to first correct something I read in this thread....the service camps (Lamplighters, Center Camp, Artica, etc.) are not included in the direct sale.

Someone else mentioned it, but I'll agree that there is a worry that VP's will be scooped up by people who don't need them. A $40 VP doesn't hold the same sense of financial urgency that an actual ticket does. I would hate to think that Burners would just toss aside a valuable commodity like a VP, but I fear that there may not be a robust secondary market for $40 vehicle passes.

Having said that, and having been through the ticket lottery of 2012, I'm confident that BMorg will respond to a shortage of vehicle passes if that comes to be. There was a Class A freak-out amongst our community in 2012, and yet I purchased a last minute ticket for a friend at cost 1 week prior. Granted, last year there were far fewer tickets available at the last minute.

The traffic issue is real, although I don't think our traffic is doing much damage to 447. If we were coming in and out during frost heave season, I would say hell yes we are. Regardless, I think a $40 VP is a way to force people to be more conscious of carpooling. It's probably fine.

One last thought, and I echo someone else's sentiments.....I'm not sure the decision-makers at BMorg have a realistic view of the stress involved for committed Burners to get a ticket, and now a VP. My first couple Burns you could buy tickets at the gate. Last year changed everything. With no lottery, 2013 tickets sold out in about 4 hours. That imparts a real fear that no matter how committed you are, you may not get a ticket. It seems like BMorg has bitten off more than they can chew for 2014. We have a new ticket vendor that hasn't been tested, and now we have a new layer to the complexity of getting yourself and your crew to Burning Man. Perhaps it would have been better to try out the ticket vendor this year, and give Burners a year's notice on the vehicle pass idea.

Best of luck for all of you.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Sham » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:35 pm

I just read all 7 pages and I'm getting one of those ice cream headaches behind my left eyeball.

It appears that this whole thing is being over thought ad nauseum.

Each car needs a Vehicle Pass. If you want to game the system, stuff as many humans as you can in your car or RV. Instead of a Yugo, bring a 12 passenger van and stuff it to the gills. (wait, vans don't have gills)

Should you be coming solo, load the car as tight as you can and pay $40 for the pass.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:09 pm

a plain & simple truth.

if you WANT to get to burning man you can get to burning man.






but you gotta want it....set your mind to it and nothing, not even hell, or high water can stop you.



but you gotta want it.







how badly do you want it?



because if you want it bad enough, all of this is just bullshit drama to fill the time between now and then...


the thing is, if you really really really want it, you'll find a way to get there, you always do, and when you arrive, the dust will be all that much sweeter.

you know this to be true.






because it is.








struggle, it's good for you....it gets the creative juices flowing, it's the mother of invention.





start worrying about your fucking art, the rest will fall into place "for those that plan" and for those that "Burn"...







now stfu, show me your tits, get off my lawn, and freebird.




love,


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Eric
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Eric » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:15 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:because if you want it bad enough, all of this is just bullshit drama to fill the time between now and then...


the thing is, if you really really really want it, you'll find a way to get there, you always do, and when you arrive, the dust will be all that much sweeter.

you know this to be true.
This.

That and the "initial allotment of 35,000 passes" bit that everyone seems to be ignoring so they can go crazy with said drama.

Org changes something, people freak out for days on end. Same as it ever was.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by BigInSeattle » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:31 pm

unjonharley wrote:
BigInSeattle wrote:New guy here...

I hear a lot of talk about entrance and exodus waits. I hear a lot of people complaining about how long it takes but what is it? An hour? All day?

If I show up on opening day what can I expect?
Any where from 0 to 8 hours in and out.. I don't think any one can give a time..

At time the lane will back up to 11 miles plus.. There is only one lane in and out
Don't let this scare you off.. Everybody gets in and out..
That won't scare me off. I'll be there unless life gets in the way.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Lonesomebri » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:41 pm

BigInSeattle wrote:New guy here...
I hear a lot of talk about entrance and exodus waits. I hear a lot of people complaining about how long it takes but what is it? An hour? All day?
If I show up on opening day what can I expect?
If you show up with the opening or leave on Monday you should plan for 12 hours. You will sit in one place for an hour or two, no idea what is going on ahead. Then you creep ahead a half mile and turn the engine off again to wait. When your leaving though, for that 12 hours you can listen to the radio tell you the wait is only 6 hours. An hour? Only if you show up or leave at some off time.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by FIGJAM » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:56 pm

The party starts in line for entry and is the best line you will ever wait in! 8)
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:11 pm

I'm planing coffee and treats for Dlot

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by VultureChow » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:18 pm

Personally I prefer Exodus. Everyone handing out the last of their food, drinks and gifts. One guy had a remote-controlled chips and salsa car that went up and down the line.

I'm still open and outgoing and happy to walk around and meet people. Entry line has me nervous and tense. Takes me a while to shed my default persona.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by unjonharley » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:27 pm

In exit line I was given soda, apples, chips, power bars and cookies..

The line was moving pretty good.. There was not enough time to make coffee..

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by CapSmashy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:24 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:a plain & simple truth.

if you WANT to get to burning man you can get to burning man.

but you gotta want it....set your mind to it and nothing, not even hell, or high water can stop you.

but you gotta want it.

how badly do you want it?

because if you want it bad enough, all of this is just bullshit drama to fill the time between now and then...

the thing is, if you really really really want it, you'll find a way to get there, you always do, and when you arrive, the dust will be all that much sweeter.

you know this to be true.

because it is.

struggle, it's good for you....it gets the creative juices flowing, it's the mother of invention.

start worrying about your fucking art, the rest will fall into place "for those that plan" and for those that "Burn"...

now stfu, show me your tits, get off my lawn, and freebird.

love,
skeletor.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by BBadger » Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Well Bbadger you disagreed with me then went on to prove exactly what I said!

Everyone keeps looking at that 1.9 people per vehicle statistic and thinking in terms of rush hour commuting at home, as if all those cars must have empty back seats. Statistics often leave out important factors that weren't included. If your head is in the oven and your feet are frozen into a block of ice, statistics will tell you that on average, you're comfortable.
Um Cap'n, the main point was never to refute that larger vehicles may be needed to carry the supplies of more occupants. No. The reply was to refute your conclusions that: 1) it is not feasible to fit the same people into fewer vehicles (you can, just get bigger vehicles), or that 2) by doing so, it would create a significant increase in road damage, obviating the purpose of applying the toll.
Look around at the gate and see how full the vast majority of vehicles are. More future burners in the same or fewer vehicles means more trucks - or more people bringing less supplies and art. More trucks = more road wear as compared to more lighter cars. That's some funny-tasting Kool-Aid.
Insignificant road wear. People aren't hauling in 18-wheelers. They aren't all going to pile into RVs either. Even a 16', fully-loaded moving truck will top out at less than 15,000lbs. These are below the threshold that states even meter weight tolls. The heaviest vehicles are RVs (maxes out at 26klbs), freight vehicles used for transporting huge stuff like MVs and large infrastructure, and construction vehicles. I would not be surprised if all these road damage fees are from those vehicle classes alone.

Everyone else? They're driving essentially passenger vehicles. The Ford F150 that brought in five (5) of us with all the supplies for 7 people, and towing a trailer with additional camp infrastructure in aggregate weight (ignoring that the trailer is an additional axle) was less than 8000lbs -- 10,000lbs less than 18,000lbs "standard weight axle". Even if everyone rented a 16' U-haul for their two (2) passengers it wouldn't be a problem. These roads are designed to carry those types of burdens.

So your argument falls flat. Yes, let more people pile into fewer, larger vehicles that can carry all of their gear. It makes little difference to the road.
And VultureChow, your plan can also be seen as penalizing the people who have fewer live people aboard because they are bringing more of all that stuff that makes BRC.
This is such a ridiculous conclusion. It's as if you assume that people only go to BM as individuals. It's especially ridiculous to believe that if someone is bringing "more of that stuff" that they're not going to be compensated by others. If someone is driving in with the trailer and all the gear, while four others piled into someone's Jetta, we can expect that the people in the Jetta will cover some of the additional $40 vehicle fee that enabled them to bring five people in two vehicles.

Yeah. It makes people start to think in terms like that. That's why this road fee wasn't just taxed into the base ticket price.
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Popeye
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Popeye » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:03 am

Now that the emotional responses are dieing down I'm still curious where the money is going. Nobody much cares about $40.00, you'd pay more than that to watch a monkey fuck a football. But $40 paid 35,000 times is 1.4 milion, this begins to be serious money. Here are a few facts and figures:

State Highway 447 ends just past the Union Pacific tracks and becomes County Road 34 which is maintained by the County. Not sure if that is Washoe or Pershing or how much work DPW volunteers put in on this road.
Nevada, like other states gets its' highway money from two main sources- the Feds and state and local taxes. The Feds contribute money to offset the costs of out of state travel through Nevada including Burners. The state keeps most of the tax money it collects and passes some to the counties. Counties keep all their tax money.
For the period 2009 to 2016 Nevada expects that cars, vans, light trucks with 2 axles and 4 tires will pay 152% (adjusted from 237%) of the actual cost to the state in highway maintenance. busses and larger vehicles pay/will pay less than 100% of the cost.
However, for the same period Nevada will use 52% of their highway money for non-highway use. There is nothing wrong with this but asking Burning Man for additional funds because they need to fix their roads seems a little ingenious. Nevada and its' counties collects highway money from us in gas tax and in offset money from the feds as well as taxes on vehicles and fuel used and owned by the Org.
These figures can be found at: http://www.nevadadot.com/uploadedFiles/ ... cation.pdf

The 2012 census shows the number of individuals arriving per vehicle. It also says that 28% of Burners stayed in an RV. Coincidently, Burners arriving with 4 to 11 in a vehicle was 28%. RV sized vehicles are contributing about 65% to 72% of the cost to Nevada for them to drive on Nevada's roads. If you arrived in anything that has more than 4 tires you are contributing about as much as an RV.

indiv/veh % Indiv. 2012 Indiv. 2013
1 11% 5,720 7,473
2 42% 21,840 28,535
3 19% 9,880 12,909
4 13% 6,760 8,832
5-6 9% 4,680 6,115
7-10 4% 2,080 2,718
11 2% 1,040 1,359
100.00% 52000 67940

52000 Participants 2012
67940 Participants 2013 2013 figures extrapolated from 2012

2012 28% stayed in RV
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Simon of the Playa
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:53 am

let's try again, but simpler math.

380 + approx 10% ($40) equals the new ticket price.

big fucking deal, especially for a group of people who blow more than that on propane.........in fifteen milliseconds




ITS STILL CHEAPER THAN HOOKERS AND BLOW



math class over.
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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:28 pm

Well Bbadger I'm a crane truck operator, it's my job to know this stuff...
Axles on trucks are allowed 20,000 pounds not 18,000. RVs do not max at 26,000.
The big ones are routinely over 30,000 and RVs are exempted from all CDL license requirements. School busses usually have GVWRs of around 30,000 and BRC is full of them.
That's why people go to the trouble of getting their school busses retitled as RVs.

My one-ton pickup and trailer weighed 4050 on the front axle, 7800 on the rear, and 9500 on the two-axle trailer. I don't guess, I check this stuff on a scale. The people traveling with me had similar weights. We could get one truck, but it would indeed be a semi truck.
Dropping the ticket price and increasing the vehicle fee does penalize those who are bringing more stuff. I know a whole lot of people who are "on their own" for the BM trip.

But all I mean about the passes and money is they are being collected on bullshit premises and I don't like having to pay $800 for tickets and have to risk them being worthless if I can't nab a car pass.
I don't mind the $40. I mind the potentially wasted $800.

The only person who has debunked anything I've said is Eric. He's right, the wording of the newsletter does leave an open door to fix things when the shit hits the fan. But I'm still going to Hawaii instead of Burning Man if I don't get a pass at the same time I get $800 worth of tickets.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

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