How to sell phys. tickets to specific non-local stranger?

[inventory]

(I have googled ePlaya and also asked a few long-time ePlayans for relevant threads, but didn't find what I was looking for. I have also read and re-read all sticky posts & announcements in the ticket forums.)

Scenario:
Individual A desires to sell a physical ticket to individual B. Individuals A and B have never met or directly interacted online other than this transaction. (Perhaps Individual A merely admires Individual B's history and internet style.) Individuals A and B do not live in the same city, and may not even live in the same country. You may assume that STEP is closed, the ticket is in hand, and the ticket is legit and being sold for face value plus postage.

What are good & safe ways to transfer this ticket where neither party is too much at risk, or risk is shared equally?

There is tons of info in the sticky threads about how to not get scammed, and how to ensure buyer protection. But there's not much about ensuring seller protection. Most of the buyer protection strategies result in the seller either having to send the ticket out without full payment, or being at risk of having the money pulled back out if the buyer later fraudulently claims the ticket never arrived. Most attempts to fix either of those two points (insisting on a different payment method, for example) would make the seller look like a scammy scammy scammer.

The best I can come up with so far is:
- A and B agree on payment method (e.g. Paypal) and trackable shipping method (e.g. FedEx)
- A and B exchange reasonable personal info (name, email, mailing addresses) and check each other out online
- A gives ticket number to B
- B checks ticket number against voided/counterfeit list
- B pays half of ticket price to A
- A ships ticket, sends tracking number and shipping cost to B, & retains all evidence of shipping
- B pays second half of ticket plus postage cost on receipt of ticket

This is still less than ideal because either party could easily lose half the ticket price - but risk is mostly shared (although I guess B could still keep the ticket AND get that partial payment refunded, ouch). Does anyone have improvements?

(Man, it would be great if there were a 2-way escrow service that worked internationally.)

[Jovankat]

Another step for buyer peace of mind could be the seller video calling the buyer and showing themselves putting the ticket in the envelope addressed to the buyer and then posting it.

A seller safe guard is that if the buyer didn't pay the second half or filed a fraud report to get a refund through Paypal the seller could use pictures they had of the tickets showing the serial numbers to make an eBay listing at a severe mark up and then report said listing to the Borg for scalping which *should* get the ticket voided. I could be wrong but I'd imagine the borg would be more likely to void an easily traceable scalp listing than a complaint about not having been paid in a private sale.

[Eric]

If you are that uncomfortable with the person you're selling the ticket to, choose someone else as the lucky recipient. You are basically doing mail-order, and there has to be a certain level of trust. You could put the ticket in the envelope at the post office while video-taping the whole thing (including the transaction with the clerk), and someone could still claim they never got it. This is one reason a face-to-face transaction (in a safe place) is better for both parties.

Your method still gets the ticket to the buyer with them only having paid 1/2, and you're trusting them to pay the rest. It may not happen once the tickets in their hand - these are high-value items, and while most of the people who want them are honest Burners, I can guarantee you that there are hundreds of scammers looking to take advantage of someone.

Do not buy a ticket from someone if the deal seems at all shady.
Do not sell a ticket to someone if the deal seems at all shady.
Everything else is trust.

[LowePro]

You could try an online middle-man like Escrow.com,
NOTE I have not used them and can't personally endorse them, I have just heard of it. Basically they accept the $$ and the goods and orchestrate the transfer with a layer of security for both parties. Read the details, as I said I have not used them myself, so just an idea.

[trilobyte]

There's no one fool-proof method, and the pitfalls of how-to guides are that they lull potential victims into a false sense of security and give potential scammers a blueprint to better hone their skills.

That said, unless the seller does some really dumb stuff like send tickets before having received payment or meeting a stranger in a dark alley for face-to-face meetup (huge assault and robbery risk), the buyer is the one who is at a significantly greater risk.

Electronic payment with buyer protection is 100% the way to go, the tiny percentage that's charged in fees is a small price to pay to minimize risk. Be clear on the ship method up front (I'd recommend something overnight or 2-day with tracking/insurance, again the fees are a small price to pay to minimize risk). Remember - you can look up and identify those fees and rates in advance, and the seller can incorporate those costs into their asking price.

Good and clear communication is key. You know that once money is sent, time slows down and every second is an eternity for the buyer waiting to hear back from the seller... so good sellers should stay in touch and let them know as soon as it's received, as well as keep the buyer posted on when the tickets are being sent and give them the tracking # the very second you have it.

[Popeye]

The only (nearly) foolproof way is in person.
In '13 I had an extra ticket and sold it in Reno. Lady drove in from Gerlach and was obviously very nervous. She parked so I could not get to the drivers window and wound the passenger window about 1/3 down. She was very relieved when everything went ok. Public place outside the Sands with lots of people around. You might try a bank or police station. In '14 I bought a ticket from someone who was a somewhat regular poster on here and had an internet presence. I had my bank send him a check through the mail which gave traceability. US mail will deter a lot of scam artists, if they get caught the feds do not screw around with mail fraud. UPS and Fedex not so much.

[some seeing eye]

Personally, I would sell your ticket to someone personally known over a long time by you or a campmate. Skin in the game so to speak. Or in person in your city, or a campmate's city. Probably long time ePlayans are (somewhat) trustworthy, some of them

Or if there is a special distant person, in person in Reno/SF pre the event at an agreed time and place. Skype etc. is a fine way to arrange.

(Game theory and risk management on ePlaya - A-OK)

[mudpuppy000]

Relying on tracked shipping has a flaw in that someone can just say you sent them an empty envelope, then dispute the paypal charges. Then they get your ticket and the money. I suppose you could save the ticket # and try to get it voided but you're still at a loss.

Personally I'd only sell or buy a ticket from someone I know, or face to face.

[Sham]

With such a drought of tickets this year, there is no real reason to sell tickets to someone in a distant city, state or country.
In my signature below, there is a link to help with both buying an selling tickets.
At around $400 a ticket, this becomes extremely lucrative for scammers---both buyers and sellers.

[Ratty]

I believe not ALL paypal payments are disputable. Sure if you buy something you can say it didn't arrive. Or it was broken. If you send the payment as a 'gift' I don't believe it's reversible. (At least that's what they claim on ebay.) Sell locally. I'm in the SF Bay area, (Martinez), and would gladly drive 50 or 100 miles. Who wouldn't? The good part about sending the money off is that an honest seller won't turn around and sell it to someone else. Once they get the money it's a done deal.

Some unfortunate cities have really bad postal service. Last month a box of cigars never came to my house but the driver scanned them and said they were delivered. I have no recourse. I did all the stuff. Filed a report. Jumped through hoops till I gave up. Face to face is undoubtedly the best.

[inventory]

Maybe I am too much of a bleeding heart liberal, or too much a lover of a good story.

I live in the Bay Area. Everyone in my friends-of-friends circle that needed a ticket has either made other plans or has gotten one. (Maybe I need more friends.) My assumption is that if I post on CL for a local buyer my buyer will be a person that probably has many CL listings they can compete for. I have pity for those who don't live in a heavy Burner area (thus have few opportunities to meet face to face for tickets).

I also have extreme empathy for long-time contributors, or those with a compelling story, who didn't get a ticket. (Yes, I'm aware the compelling story might not always be true. I figure it's okay to reward the good story anyway.)

So in the end I am aware that choosing not to sell locally means a certain amount of unavoidable risk for both parties. And obviously both parties need to be comfortable with the transaction for it to happen at all, which involves trust. I was mostly curious about the thought exercise of "given the scenario, what are available options?" As some seeing eye said, game theory.

You guys are awesome. Especially Jovankat -- I would never have thought of self-scalping in a million years, but it is GENIUS. I love it for the poetry. It might not work, but it also might, and it makes me giggle.

[some seeing eye]

You are a queen for your ticket. Sell it queen wisely. Don't assume any downside risk at all, no need to. Upside risk is all. And you can write a story about it.

[Jovankat]

You guys are awesome. Especially Jovankat -- I would never have thought of self-scalping in a million years, but it is GENIUS. I love it for the poetry. It might not work, but it also might, and it makes me giggle.

Aw yeah!

I do like to consider myself a bit of a "creative problem solver"

[pink]

Sell it to Ratty. You can sell it in person, and I will vouch for her as will a hundred other people on here. Ratty needs to get to the playa!

[Jovankat]

Sell it to Ratty. You can sell it in person, and I will vouch for her as will a hundred other people on here. Ratty needs to get to the playa!

Yeah. Do that.

[AZ-Dave]

Sell it on Ebay at face value plus shipping... Buy it now.

You have protection for the money clearing to your account... they buyer has protection that you will deliver said ticket or they get a refund.

To direct it to someone you want to... have the buyer sitting at their computer and you at yours. Create some creative spelling for your ad "burrrrrrrrnnnnnninng Man" for your tickets for sale ad. This will stop someone else from finding it in the 3 minutes or so it will take for your buyer to find your ad and click "Buy it Now!". EBay takes care of the money transfer. You ship the tickets and the buyer is happy. Buyer has EBay's guarantee that the tickets will be what you describe.

...... or call me. We need one ticket. I can't imaging going without my wife.... she can't imagine going without me.

Dave
480-206-3028

[Jovankat]

To direct it to someone you want to... have the buyer sitting at their computer and you at yours. Create some creative spelling for your ad "burrrrrrrrnnnnnninng Man" for your tickets for sale ad.

eBay actually has a private or reserved listing option.

[FlyingMonkey]

I feel like I'm beating the same drum over & over but contact the regional contacts in your area (if there are any).
http://regionals.burningman.org/regiona ... h-america/
They are an awesome resource & chances are they know of someone who needs a ticket(they know more burners than you do). Attend their meetings, go on their campouts, attend your regional burn, & if you like any of the local burners maybe consider Burning with them.

I'm in the same situation as you. I bought a ticket for my buddy who just backed out & hasn't paid in full yet. I've been putting out feelers & as soon as I have tickets in hand I intend to find someone locally to sell it to.

Face to Face & Face Value.

[GreyCoyote]

This may sound like overkill to some, but this is just a workaday transaction in my world.

Call your lawyer. Setup an appointment with their paralegal. Pay the P/L $50 to print out a simple sale contract (it's a canned form. You're paying for the ink and toner, kids. We're talking 90 seconds of actual work to slap the names and date on there). The paralegal is also a notary. Set a time/date at the lawyers office for both parties to meet, provide ID, sign the simple sale contract, exchange tickets... done. If it takes more than 15 minutes, someone is being lazy. All the lawyer needs to do is wave as they walk by. The paralegal does all the heavy lifting. Cheap entertainment for the front office, too.

This is a routine business transaction with complete transparancy, just as it should be. Just like buying a car, (or locally, a horse, cattle or tractor). The end result is both sides have recourse against the other if something breaks. There is a contract that is enforceable at law, and you've got a notary as a witness.

STEP is the best solution for dumping tickets to random burners, but for a directed distribution, the above scenario is about as bulletproof as it gets.

[inventory]

eBay actually has a private or reserved listing option.

I had no idea! I know that's semi-possible on etsy (you say it's reserved, and if someone else buys it anyway you can refund the payment and re-list), but did not know that was a thing on ebay.

I will look into how egregious the fees are and what sort of "seller protection" might be offered - that definitely covers buyer protection. If it seems like a fit, I'll report back - sounds ideal for the transfer to someone specific and non-local.

There are some other really great ideas in here, too. Hopefully others can make use of them when their situations fit.

[inventory]

eBay actually has a private or reserved listing option.

I will look into how egregious the fees are and what sort of "seller protection" might be offered - that definitely covers buyer protection. If it seems like a fit, I'll report back

Quick non-exhaustive search indicates eBay may have previously offered this features but doesn't now. There are some system quirks that could be exploited, such as AZ-Dave's trick or the "sending an offer to a buyer" feature, but the former leaves you open to someone else buying the ticket and the latter would require you to initially list the ticket at a much higher price to scare off opportunistic buyers (offering a face-price sale to your intended recipient via private offer), resulting in a window where the sale could be pulled down for scalping. There's also a way to set buyer requirements for who can bid (based on, e.g., feedback score) and then whitelist a specific username, so you could try that as a way to narrow down who could swoop in.

Also, eBay takes 10% of price + shipping. So you're paying around $50 extra on a face-price ticket + vehicle pass.

Doesn't seem to be any protection for the "buyer fraudulently claims never received it" issue yet, but at least it would end up in moderation.

Again, above is just a quick search. I could be wrong.

[Zubeneschamali]

Personality and internet style aside, Seller could save themselves a lot of headache by dealing with someone locally who is probably just as fantastic as this virtual buyer. I'm sure there's a local burner population right outside your front door who would be forever grateful that another ticket was offered up locally.

[Soapdish85]

Where can I find a list of cancelled tickets? Or do I have to mail the org?

[maladroit]

I've sold/bought tickets in person only. There's very little reason not to do so.

Reporting yourself for scalping sounds cute, but it might not turn out so well when you try to buy tickets the next year.

[Aurelia]

sad thread

[inventory]

Reporting yourself for scalping sounds cute, but it might not turn out so well when you try to buy tickets the next year.

D'oh.

Well, that's what crowdsourced thought experiments are for.

Maybe I should just put a bobcat in the box along with the ticket.

[tamarakay]

At some point you just have to decide if you trust the person or not.

I can see how someone in say, Australia suddenly can't go and wants to sell to someone they only know on here. You trust, but you really don't know this person. It's risky.

[mdmf007]

You can also list on one of the mega sales sites (increases costs arbitrarily) but provides buyer protection in the form of insurance. Offer the link to the known seller for a "buy it now price" and the sale is complete. A ships it when the site is funded. B receives money once shipping confirmation is clicked on. A has insurance if item is not as described, B gets money from the Sales site.