Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

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danibel
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by danibel » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:24 am

what I don't understand about the whole thing is that they had VS in excess last year. You could drive up to will call and buy one at the gate. There were ooodles not even used. And the number of passes sold was fine with the BLM. They were not "oversold." So why create this false scarcity? Why not sell up to the number that was SOLD last year? So what if they weren't used. This self imposed limit is stupid.

I know I am not the only person with this line of thinking. Why isn't the Borg thinking this? Why make this doubly difficult? Let the people that purchased tickets in the main sale, and didn't get a VS, buy one.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by digital » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:26 am

What's a "VS"?

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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Melonblue » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:36 am

Vehicle sticker.

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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by digital » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:42 am

Melonblue wrote:Vehicle sticker.
Ah. I've never heard it referred to as that. Is this something different than a Vehicle Pass?

Sorry, just trying to get our terms in sync.

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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Elderberry » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:44 am

The whole purpose of starting up with the VPs in the first place is to limit the amount of traffic/vehicles going in and out of the event; I think BLM is pushing this because the roads just can't accommodate the amount of traffic. So, it would sort of defeat the purpose if they made more passes available than the 'quota' they are looking to stay within. Especially when you consider that the main reason for the shortage is people buying more passes than they need.

It's a matter of changing people's behavior over time. As people see they don't have to buy two vehicle passes, they will stop buying two. Then the distribution will be more equitable and VPs should be available to everyone that needs one and still meet the goals BMORG is trying to reach with limiting traffic.

Unfortunately this "training period" is putting a lot of stress on people.

(I don't know this to be the case, but it makes sense to me.)
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Madgirl » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:44 am

Nope, same thing. The vehicle passes are stickers.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by danibel » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:58 am

Elderberry wrote:The whole purpose of starting up with the VPs in the first place is to limit the amount of traffic/vehicles going in and out of the event; I think BLM is pushing this because the roads just can't accommodate the amount of traffic. So, it would sort of defeat the purpose if they made more passes available than the 'quota' they are looking to stay within. Especially when you consider that the main reason for the shortage is people buying more passes than they need.
Then why not sell the number that sold last year?! It's not about making more passes available. It's about making the same number available. And if people buy extras and get stuck with them, too bad. They lose $40.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:03 am

danibel wrote:what I don't understand about the whole thing is that they had VS in excess last year. You could drive up to will call and buy one at the gate. There were ooodles not even used. And the number of passes sold was fine with the BLM. They were not "oversold." So why create this false scarcity? Why not sell up to the number that was SOLD last year? So what if they weren't used. This self imposed limit is stupid.

I know I am not the only person with this line of thinking. Why isn't the Borg thinking this? Why make this doubly difficult? Let the people that purchased tickets in the main sale, and didn't get a VS, buy one.
2014 was the first year ever of vehicle passes. BMORG is trying to calibrate price, numbers, sale brackets, used/unused. I have previously posted the public math. If this year's percieved shortage drives more free rides for low income, more fly-in, more Burner Express and more ride sharing, that's a good not a bad.

No one is entitled to a ticket or a vehicle pass. If you are lacking, quarrel with the hoarders and sellers over cost in "the community", work on getting what you are seeking from your community and be self reliant!
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Sham » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:17 am

My thoughts on this are that many of the passes last year went unused. If they're unlimited, then nothing really changes as far as traffic to BRC goes. Many cars came in with only one passenger in each, but loaded with supplies. The hope is that things will change, and more cars come in with two passengers (and possibly one strapped to the roof). It would be great if cars can be cut down by 25% because of the VP's. Less traffic in and less traffic out. This will allow the Black Rock Desert to be our home for many more years before we outgrow it.

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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by danibel » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:35 am

I don't need a VS, this year, but three of my campmates do. I drive in with my sweetie and all my crap. My cargo van is a two seater. We do bring enough shade to share as well as the makings of ice cream.

I understand the underlying theory about VS's and I am in full agreement that limits to cars need to happen to make sure the event continues. I do not like 9 hour exodus' either. But to drop the number this year to EXACTLY what was USED last year is lame. It's a self imposed limit that is making it hard on people.

Again, why not sell the number that SOLD last year? Why was the ratio for the main sale less than other sales? It's creating a hoarding situation.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Elderberry » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:42 am

Did the number of tickets sold this year increase from last year? (IDK, but let's say the did not.) Then the actual VPs used should be a good indicator for this year. If the tickets increased, then the VPs should be increased based on the previous year's ratio of tickets to VPs used.

Makes perfect sense.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Jovankat » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:53 am

I agree that there should have been a bit of a margin, no more that 5%, on top of the number than were used last year but the VP programme *has* to push the community to bring less vehicles, that's the whole point. I think of it as like lacing a corset. Last year they laced up. This year they're going back over the laces and actually tightening them. I wouldn't be surprised if they tighten again next year too. The idea is to get the smallest waistline/best vehicle to participant ratio as possible. And yeah, that's gonna be uncomfortable.

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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by FIGJAM » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:56 am

I don't know about that Sham.

Maybe my logic is skewed, but let's check it.

1 burner in a car packed full for their weeks stay and maybe a little art. (I know lots of these people.)

Now this person tries to bring a passenger.

They can no longer bring all their "Things" and the passenger has to bring their "Things", but they are now stuck with bare bones camping and no art.

Now lets scale it up.

Burning Man gets 100,000 people on the playa because this current plan works out, but it's ALL bare bones camping with very little art.

The only way around that is commercial transport of ANY art projects big or small because people and gear is all the average burner has room for.

"I built this thing, but I don't have room to haul it."

Show me where I'm mistaken please.

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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by SnowBlind » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:06 pm

Jovankat wrote:the VP programme *has* to push the community to bring less vehicles, that's the whole point.
Yes, but there are two knobs they can turn to achieve that. They can raise the price, or they can reduce the numbers.

If they raise the price, it becomes more economical to car pool. Heck, they could even raise the VP price a lot, and reduce the ticket prices on the other side. $600 VP and $200 ticket, lets see how much more carpooling we'll get.

On the other hand, if they sell them for $50 and just limit the availability, they create a mess. First, they are creating conditions (low price and low availabilty, but high value to participants) that play right into the hands of scalpers. It's almost like asking for them to be scalped.

Second, it's just creating even more of a headache for people. Not only do people have to chase after tickets, now there is a second component they have to chase after. A lot of people already have to plan their trip with uncertainty because they don't have tickets, and the VPs just layer a second helping of scarcity on top.

So yeah, I'm not sure this is really a good idea. And while I have my ticket and VP taken care off, seeing so many other burners struggle to get things straightened out a month before the burn makes me question the whole VP strategy.

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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Jovankat » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:08 pm

A camp that a bunch of folk I know are in has rented a mini bus for all a good chunk of their campers and a truck for all their personal gear. I'm not sure how many people are using it but that could easily be 10 people getting in on 2 VPs. Plus the bus idea sounds kinda fun. It wouldn't work for everyone but I think those sorts of ideas are what the org is hoping to encourage.

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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:11 pm

FIGJAM wrote:The only way around that is commercial transport of ANY art projects big or small because people and gear is all the average burner has room for.
Mr Figjam invented the cooler and now nails the diminishing art/VP perceived shortages! Seriously this is a very smart proposal!

We want more art, not less. Establish a enforced late departure (and early arrival) for art trucks, VP free (big art). Set up an art container delivery service as Mr Figjam suggests with expanded DPW support for container to spot on playa and back to container support (all size art). Art installation container depots at major BM cities. Registering for transport with the Artery allows better documentation of the art which is BM, large and small!
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by FIGJAM » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:20 pm

But......but......but........

We are all inclusive (BM cities?), so there would have to be containers world wide so that no burner would have to drive more than 100 miles to drop off their "Art".

And that is just the start of THAT logistical nightmare!!! :shock:
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:33 pm

SnowBlind wrote: Yes, but there are two knobs they can turn to achieve that.
Snowblind good observation, get it, but more knobs. Presale there is a max VP which could be replaced by a VP to tickets limit. VP to tickets limit in general and OMG. Transportation plan for placed camps audited each year for next year EA and VP. VP price should rise in steps to the ticket price.

The presale serves two communities, international fly-in who need to plan ahead for a $1500 air fare, US transport, buying locally; PnP luxury participants or commercial camp planners that need economic certainty to plan camps with 100k's on up budgets. I would argue that BM policy should support the former and let the later support themselves at cost, including in the secondary market.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:37 pm

FIGJAM wrote:But......but......but........

We are all inclusive (BM cities?), so there would have to be containers world wide so that no burner would have to drive more than 100 miles to drop off their "Art".

And that is just the start of THAT logistical nightmare!!! :shock:
Hahaha, BMORG is worldwide, so absolutely! Once the BMORG sends the founders worldwide, they open up the genie's bottle.....
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Ano » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:47 pm

Well... vehicle passes suck. I don't think any one of us will disagree there.

However, I can say somewhat anecdotally, that they did really cut down on the number of vehicles driving in with a single person and no gear, who had a camp waiting for them. It was relatively common in 2013, and very uncommon in 2014...

It's a stressor though, for sure, and I don't think we can lay a verdict down until 2015's event finishes. As of right now, though, I unfortunately know way too many highly participatory camps and art pieces that are fighting to find ways to get their gear out to the dust.

Overall, the whole state of ticketing makes me sad. It's really disheartening to see camps and art pieces implode, not due to drama, not due to money, not due to difficulty, but due to not having tickets for their crew or vehicle passes. The pipe dream of "prepare as if you're going, and one will fall into your lap" isn't really so true anymore, it seems. I know of people who could just plain not go last year, despite being connected in their community and one even driving as far as Gerlach looking for someone selling tickets, fully packed and ready... and then turning around in defeat, camping in Reno with a sign and a hotel room until Saturday, and then just giving up. All year looking for tickets, organizing, preparing, packing, and it just doesn't work out. That just sucks.

I have one friend who had his green man fail the line, as of right now has been in STEP since day 1, has been active in his community, is with a theme camp, is (currently) signed up for 40 hours of volunteer work, and has an art project. He can't find a ticket... anywhere. The number of tickets moving around is shrinking considerably. Of course, he is going to try the OMG sale... but that's also a semi-lotto, with the amount of people diving in to it.

It just sucks. This isn't just a dust storm to navigate, this is a full on fucked up thunderstorm. I don't really know how to navigate this one, personally. Do you? I'm interested to see what happens over the next few years.

I legitimately hope something major changes. Maybe one of those tech trillionaires will pay for 447 to grow considerably and route around all the small towns.

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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by mdmf007 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:14 pm

danibel wrote:Since the Vehicle Stickers are sold at a ratio of two tickets per VS - and I do believe most OMG sales will be for 2 tickets, close to 500 - that leaves 750 VS available. Of course not every OMG sale will be for two tickets but lets just say 80% will - that would be about 600 orders and 650 VS available to people just buying a VS.

I also would like to see MORE VS offered in the OMG sale and some available at the gate. I have friends with a ticket but no VS.
Pure conjecture on everyones parts. Just register for the OMG sale, do your best to get a VP, then start the real bitching. Carts getting put before the horse here IMO.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Popeye » Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:46 pm

SnowBlind wrote:
Jovankat wrote:the VP programme *has* to push the community to bring less vehicles, that's the whole point.
Yes, but there are two knobs they can turn to achieve that. They can raise the price, or they can reduce the numbers.

So yeah, I'm not sure this is really a good idea. And while I have my ticket and VP taken care off, seeing so many other burners struggle to get things straightened out a month before the burn makes me question the whole VP strategy.
If they raise the VP price the people who are most likely to be able to afford the new price are older "kids leaving", and working. Burning Man is an arts fair and encourages the younger less experienced poorer artist (of any kind) to experience the burn and the art and help build the projects. A chance to learn and develop.
Lately BM has/ seems to encourage as many virgins as possible. Lately there have been comments that the older experienced burners have been pushed out and BM is losing a lot of community knowledge and experience.
Leaving the distribution of VP's to economics is counterproductive. Artists are not known for their wealth yet BM needs artists.
What would happen if, for every year you attended. you could direct a VP to someone or some camp. The more you have burned the more you are involved in the community and would be able to direct the pass to a good purpose.
This would not eliminate virgins but might get rid of some bucket listers. It would put VP's where the community wants/needs them.
Decreasing the number of passes just creates more trauma and bullshit. The people and camps who need vehicles passes are having trouble getting them.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:49 am

So how about this: just make the whole gate a carpool lane.
Two ticketed people minimum per vehicle gets you in.
That's the stated goal of this whole idiotic VP system that can leave a lot of people totally fucked.
Just do that. It's still possible to get screwed that way if you're traveling alone, but I maintain its easier to find a passenger than a VP, especially if you know from the start that's the system.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Ratty » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:17 am

I would have to post an ad something like this...

"Need a ride to BRC? Join me in an adventure from SF to the playa. If you weigh under 100 pounds and don't mind riding with all your gear in your lap this may be the ride for you."
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:36 am

A little trailer would solve your problem.
That's obtainable. A VP might not be.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by Ratty » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:00 am

This time I bought the cheapest Toyota available. 4 cylinder, no roof rack and I'm very happy with it. After I load it down with a fuck ton, (10 times a shit load), of useless gear could I pull a trailer up the hill from SF? The salespeople at Toyota said it had 'towing ability'.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by FIGJAM » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:44 am

My camry has 1500 towing cap. with probably the same engine.
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Re: Dear Burning Man: Parking Passes

Post by pink » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:36 pm

Well, I've sent four responses to people looking for a ride from Reno on the 26th on the ride share and have received absolutely no replies yet. I can even take some gear! Maybe my 'absolutely not 420 friendly nor any other illicit substances allowed' is the deal breaker :?
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