Categories and Forums Discussion

[Tancorix]

The personal issues of 2 people should not stand in the way of progress for 8000. I see your point Spectabillis, when I was writing that it was the only active example I could think of that others would know about. But in hindsight I can see how it was taken wrong. But it did spark a discussion and hopefully some good will come from it.

I will try to honor his request going forward and not mention him. I hope that he will do the same. Until today he has been quiet and hopefully things will return to that state.

But if it's not the two of us, this issue will resurface guaranteed. It's a good time for the community as it's laying a new foundation to look into it. Moderation will help but Technopatra got shellshocked by the sock wars. Any future admins / moderators need to be spared that misery if we can find an acceptable way to accomplish it.

[Das Bus]

Hello ePlayans!

I can't decide which of the mock-ups I personally like best, but #3 would probably be easier for newbies to navigate.

[GuinivereElise]

my $.02

while I was looking forward to the idea of Spanky's merged mockup, the actual page seems cluttered and messy. Having the subfora listed makes the page completely unattractive and uninviting. i still favor trey's mockup for it's simplicity and for it's ability to allow the community to grow organically.

While I think that it's important for the newbies to have a clear path upon their entrance, part of learning ones way around comes from getting lost a few times. Stumbling upon things. My perspective is that we go with trey's, and encourage the newbies to look around first , discover, figure things out slowly, instead of pushing them toward one specific place right off the bat. I think that shoving them in the q&a direction has a tendency to make them post without getting a feel for the place, or to post a repeat question without looking around for the answer first. (as a side note, having the title Greeter's Station seems to inflect the sort of self-reliance that I'd like to see more of, specifically in the newbies. it seems to say "come on in, take stock of your surroundings, and find your own way", as opposed to a Start Here title, which already infers that we'll show you the way.)

again, my opinion take with salt as you choose.

[spanky]

But I do like "Greeters station" over "Start Here".) - (except that "Start Here" is SOOO clear.

+1 I really liked Greeters too, but I thought, if someone has never been to the event, they would have no idea what Greeters meant, so I went with the über-clear "Start Here". We could use both:

Start Here: Greeters Station

I HATE the EMOTICONS! BURN THEM! (please?)

This is an ongoing debate with no end. While I agree with you that they are annoying, I tend to use them alot when my point may be taken in the wrong context. Adding a smiley after a potentially contentious statement, makes it clear that I am joking or not angry in any way.

Also, if you lookin in your profile, there is an option to "Always enable Smilies" which can be set to yes or no. I'm not sure what this setting actually does, but I will investigate and get back to you.

AND, there is "Disable Smilies in this post" checkbox on the posting page as well.

FWIW, I am looking at a MOD that will hide the smileys from the posting page, and make them accessible from a menu or small popup instead. But this is not a priority right now. The main priority is getting the forums back open

~Spanky

[spanky]

Or when someone Xposts the same info, it can be deleted as necessary.

We are also looking at a "double post removal MOD". Stops double posts from double-clicking I think.

~Spanky

[spanky]

The only thing I need is the ability to edit. (Sometimes posts don't look quite like I intended.)

As an admin, I have the luxury of editing posts, and therefore completely understand the desire to be able to clean up posts. The problem with "edit", and thus the reasoning behind the removal of it, is that it often does not get used for this very useful purpose. What happens is that history is changed/rewritten. People go back and change what they posted mid-discussion and then there is nothing to refer back to. We had instances of a user going back and replacing all of their posts with "deleted". This leads to no accountability. Someone can say something, incite anger, and then go back, change their post and claim they never did it. Sure, you can quote them, but nothing stops you from editing a quote to make it appear someone said something they did not (exacerbating the problem). So, we decided, long ago, that editing was mostly for good, but its ability to be used for evil outweighed the good. Instead, maybe consider checking your spelling carefully before clicking submit, or liberal use of the "preview" button. I routinely use that in lieu of edit b/c it's faster, cheaper and much much safer. I constantly fuck up the BBCode and using preview helps

We have also talked about (iconoclast was pushing for this) adding a spell checker.

So, I completely hear you, but edit is not going to happen. Also, we digress from the conversation at hand...

It seems that many people like #3 (which is only standing on the shoulders of others' work), but there are still some concerns. I will look over what people have said and take a stab at and EVEN BETTER #4

Give me a minute to go ver the posts and try to summarize the concerns.

~Spanky

[spanky]

Coma, coma, coma-chameleon..

Oh, come on! <holds head> This is just absolutely absurd. <shakes held head> Sock puppet or not, I don't care who you are, this is simply pushing buttons, turning people off and frankly, immature. My role here is NOT to moderate, police the board or be the mommy, but if we are talking about self-policing and self-regulating, then someone has to actually DO it. I don't want to drift off from this very useful topic, which frankly is the focus of all of my attention right now (I want to get the forums back up just as mucha s everyone else) but I feel that this just straight up sucks.

Not to try to gang up on someone, but does this make anyone else feel ill? You are grown up people!! As I'm aware that you are also Badger's sock puppet, so you are not only a grownup, you are also a Black Rock Ranger and people look to a person in that role as a model. Please refer to the Rangers Website and ask yourself, sock puppet or not, if you are living up to this very noble and respected position. Granted, nobody is going to force you to behave a certain way, just because you work as a Ranger, especially in the "off season", and not every Ranger is shining model to the community (no offense to Rangers), but Ranging aside, this isn't something I would expect from someone who is also pushing for positive change within the community. This isn't something I would expect from anyone!

Anyhow, AGAIN I digress from the topic at hand, but I had to call you out and I hope others will too. This is the only way this board is going to survive. People being accountable to the community. Now, KNOCK IT OFF. If you don't, I guess people will just have to start actually using Plonk.

I don't want to be seen by this community as an admin or an authority figure, which is why I use my Spanky account and not the Admin account. I'm right here with you. My goal is to find out what people want, build consensus and implement. Along the way, I'm going to speak out my personal feelings too. Even if I were not the man behind the curtain, I would still speak out on this matter. So please do not perceive this a coming down on Isotopia from "on high". That account [Admin] is reserved for "on high" needs.

~Spanky

PS: If you want to continue this discussion, I BEG you to do it in the Empire Store thread until we get the other forums open. Feel free to quote this whole thing over there, but we need to be able to focus on the Cat/Forum conversation. I don't want to fire a shot and then hide, just take it over there so we can be productive in here.

[joel the ornery]

somebodies' panties got all tied up in a knot.

breathe, let the anger go.

[spanky]

somebodies' panties got all tied up in a knot.

Could be Today I'm wearing my silk thong undies and they ride up reel bad sometimes.

~Spanky

[Martiansky]

somebodies' panties got all tied up in a knot.

Could be Today I'm wearing my silk thong undies and they ride up reel bad sometimes.

~Spanky

You crack me up Spanky!
*stifles a laugh behind hand and then loses it and all out breaks out in laughter*

[MissNev]

Woo! What was I going to say....oh yes. I like the look of III's, but I also like the less broad and easier look of Spanky's. Waiting until #4 to decide.

[Tiara]

If someone posts as "Ranger X" or "Greeter Y", or "Volunteer Coordinator Z" then fine, hold them accountable to acting "Rangerly"or "Greeterly" or whatever.

But if someone posts under their own recognizable identity, then they are no different from any user of this board, and accountable only to the same standards that are applied to every user of this board.

There are lots of users of this board who volunteer in many different capacities. We/They give freely of their time. They receive no compensation other than an occasional thank you. They do not freely assume any arbitrary expectations of how they "should" act.


btw, I purposefully did not use specific names because I am not trying to perpetuate any previous wars. However, I think this is an important principle to consider related to forums and moderation thereof.

[Das Bus]

RE: Edit/delete

Didn't the old - old eplaya give the poster the option of changing their post for 15 minutes after it was posted? Something like that may be useful. (I know there was one night in a drunken bi-polar stupor I was very grateful for the 'delete' option!)

[spectabillis]

This topic is for discussing the layout of the categories and forums on the new ePlaya. The results of this discussion will be implemented and rolled out after about a week.

Definately drifting away from this again and agreement has not been made on the Layout / General Structure. Other topics including moderation will be handled - but will not happen here.[/b]

[geekster]

I agree. Lets get format decisions made, content rolled out, and then we can take up the "edit/delete" debate later.

[spanky]

... moderation will be handled ...

Thanks for pulling the reins

I think we are pretty close with the structure conversation so I will open up a Moderation thread in a minute. I just rolled a change so I want to be sure all is well. I also have one more mockup to make.

~Spanky

[spanky]

If someone posts as "Ranger X" or "Greeter Y", or "Volunteer Coordinator Z" then fine, hold them accountable to acting "Rangerly"or "Greeterly" or whatever.

But if someone posts under their own recognizable identity, then they are no different from any user of this board, and accountable only to the same standards that are applied to every user of this board.

You know, you're absolutely right. My apologies to Isotopia, who is free to be any way they want without being associated with an official role. It's just common knowledge (I think, I mean, c'mon, even *I* know ) that Isotopia = Badger = Ranger.

I stand by the rest of my comments and, again, apologize for the innappropriate association.

~Spanky <sits down>

[spanky]

can you do a mock up of any thread page that shows the very ugly add-ignore-disallow icons as simply A I D ?
A = add
I = ignore
D= disallow

those are being reworked now. Hang on and we'll yank 'em soon. Many thanks to Gregori for working on them. I'll ping him to see how it's going.

~Spanky

[spanky]

>... i think one sticky per category would be great...

+1

I have it on my list

~Spanky

[spanky]

some concerns expressed re: layout

Current concerns with Layout #3

vague areas allow for more organic development of discussion

(a) the content of the sub fora isn't all that clear, especially to someone who is new to the event as well as the fora, and

(b) i have a preference for letting divisions grow organically, which points to fewer more loosely defined areas rather than more tightly defined areas. if you look at the old statistics, i think you'll see that there was a very uneven distribution between the different areas - even more so before the last restructuring. that indicates to me that the partitions as envisioned by the admins were not reflective of how the community ended up using the board.

while I was looking forward to the idea of Spanky's merged mockup, the actual page seems cluttered and messy. Having the subfora listed makes the page completely unattractive and uninviting. i still favor trey's mockup for it's simplicity and for it's ability to allow the community to grow organically.

While I think that it's important for the newbies to have a clear path upon their entrance, part of learning ones way around comes from getting lost a few times. Stumbling upon things. My perspective is that we go with trey's, and encourage the newbies to look around first , discover, figure things out slowly, instead of pushing them toward one specific place right off the bat. I think that shoving them in the q&a direction has a tendency to make them post without getting a feel for the place, or to post a repeat question without looking around for the answer first. (as a side note, having the title Greeter's Station seems to inflect the sort of self-reliance that I'd like to see more of, specifically in the newbies. it seems to say "come on in, take stock of your surroundings, and find your own way", as opposed to a Start Here title, which already infers that we'll show you the way.)

CameraGirl wanted to see a section for Volunteering and a place for discussing year-round events, like Decom et. al.

Mockup to follow...

~Spanky

[spectabillis]

Hold on please

Can we wait until the new thread is created?

It would be nice for people to come back to this one to read and understand, as well as provide feedback on the changes.

Moderator is a very involved topic, more of a challenge, will have at least as many posts, and I suspect it will be a heated debate.

Should be separate from this.[/i]

[Badger]

You know, you're absolutely right. My apologies to Isotopia, who is free to be any way they want without being associated with an official role. It's just common knowledge (I think, I mean, c'mon, even *I* know Wink ) that Isotopia = Badger = Ranger.

A fine example of the need to perhaps re-consider engaging a time-specific edit/delete feature. After you jammed your foot in your mouth with a what WAS an inappropriate comment. You or anyone else (including yours truly) could go back and clean up something said either in the heat of things or as a result of mis-interpreting what someone else has written. Instead, what I see is that the 'decision' to not engage an edit feature is done (seemingly) by fiat and based on the most. Pardon me if I suggest that this sounds somewhat autocratic dictatorial on your part Spanky but in all of my years on the board I don't remember ever reading ANY discussion where the pro's/con's of editing were ever brought to the fore to be discussed by thoise people who use the board the most, who've invested substantially, etc. Instead, we get this dictum from on high (i.e YOU) that edit won't see the light of day. Pardon me if I suggest that this smacks of something way less than concensus based decision making either in the public forums or with the members of the board list.

[spanky]

Moderator is a very involved topic, more of a challenge, will have at least as many posts, and I suspect it will be a heated debate.

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=8306

Moderation topic.

~Spanky

[spectabillis]

Thanks for the new thread Spanky, my last post was while you were creating it.

[Badger]

This leads to no accountability. Someone can say something, incite anger, and then go back, change their post and claim they never did it. Sure, you can quote them, but nothing stops you from editing a quote to make it appear someone said something they did not (exacerbating the problem). So, we decided, long ago, that editing was mostly for good, but its ability to be used for evil outweighed the good.

Also, the the idea that accountability being the core issue/reason for not allowing an edit feature is *I* believe somewhat disengenuous. If memory serves me correctly the ability to no longer allow additions, deletions or edits to one's post came right about the time that there was serious discussion by LLC members in making the e-playa a fee based board. The real concern it seems was the need to commodify people's contributions to the board so that the subscriber would get their money's worth - especially in the arenas of how-to's and such.

[spanky]

OK, so, Badger, you bait me well and I almost bit on the hook. But alas, I am not going to go off topic in this thread again. This thread is not about Edit, it is about Categories and Forums. Plus I already offered you...er...Isotopia, my apologies.

We can take up the edit discussion at a later date.

I have a new mockup, not super-different, but improved (I think):

http://fultonlyons.com/opt4.html

~Spanky

[Tiara]

Does the most current mockup include the Volunteer section?

My guess is yes, and it is listed as "Participate!"

That makes sense to me. But do newbies necessarily think in those terms, or would explicitly using the word "Volunteer" be more obvious to them? Might "participate" be interpreted as "attend" or "interact with artists" or "visit theme camps"?

What do others think? Any relatively newcomers reading this who care to comment?

Other ideas for names:
Volunteer Corner
Contribute Your Time
Get Involved!

Or maybe my guess is flat wrong, and there will be a separate area called Volunteer, and the folders within it will be named for each department, ie Greeters, Cafe, Lamplighters, etc etc etc

[Badger]

Well, for the sake of continuity you can move my post(s) over to the other thread with absolutely no objection on my part.

[PurpleKoosh]

I have a new mockup, not super-different, but improved (I think):

http://fultonlyons.com/opt4.html

Like the overall look. Love the "other 51 weeks" tagline.

Greeter's Station? There's only one greeter there, ever? Pull the apostrophe, please.

I'd change the order below Greeters to Allabout/Prep/05; putting the year-specific thread at the top is liable to wind up choking the thread with things that would be (IMO) much better handled in one of the other two threads - and may well have been discussed in-depth for previous years. (Which reminds me - is there a way to put a "Search This Forum" button in a more obvious place?) I like the balance of having the year-specific thread and the "year-round connections" next to one another, too.

[Badger]

I think the 'volunteer'' link does serve a purpose - especially if a person goes to the board assuming that they can get information on how to get involved. I know we;ve had enough people in the past come to the board and make inquiries because they either didn't take the time to check the main web site or were confused by it. Maybe the 'volunteer' could be linked with both the a board page about getting involved and the main page that elaborates on the various departments, etc.