case studies

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:55 pm

A to Z....it's the 4th of July. It's a vacation weekend for the vast majority of Americans. Not to defend TP but I'm thinking damn...she might be like a lot of others I know of and be out at 4th of Juplaya, or one of the myriad events on the playa this weekend. It's not anything against you or a vast right wing conspiracy....If I wasn't in Greece watching everyone screwup the Olympic preparation I'd be on the playa myself.

Posting e-mails. Some consider it a breech of online etiquette. May they go screw themselves and the horse they rode in on. If you are under attack and I've been there on this board, I will not hesitate to produce e-mails or other facts that will back up my position. I consider it a matter of self-defense. And when being attacked, etiquette can take a flying f##k. (Speaking of attacks, I'm taking bets on who will be the first one firing at me for saying that.)

That being said....the situation needs to be pretty bad to warrant using it. Don't post e-mails relating to casual conversations, supporting political arguments, for personal attacks, etc. But in this case since you are being threatened with a permanent ban from using this board, a death sentence of sorts, I consider the e-mail posting fully justified. In the end, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It didn't harm anyone to present it, therefore do what you must.

Next, after reading TP's post, I saw it as taking a light hearted approach. She wasn't trying to play the heavy...I read that as a warning touched with a bit of regret if she was forced to act. I also see someone doing the job she was asked to do. The ORG asked her to keep an eye on this place so that anything which threatens the ORG is promptly addressed. I feel she has done that. In short I am trying very hard...very hard to see any negativity here on her part, and I just don't see it like you do.

In any event the warning was given, things have moved on, and lessons were learned. Will any purpose be served by dragging this out further? If so, let the discussion begin. If not...maybe we can find more interesting things to post about. Comments?

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 3:01 pm

Posting e-mails. Some consider it a breech of online etiquette. May they go screw themselves and the horse they rode in on.

Not a surprising sentiment you voice considering yours is a record more aggregious than most when it comes to posting private posts.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 3:16 pm

Badger, I was thinking of you when I wrote that. While I have my share of issues you have some predictable and annoying tendencies yourself.

Anyway do you have any positive comments to add to the discussion, or are you strictly interested in taking sniper shots and qualifying for Miss Negativity 2004? I tried to keep my post balanced and contribute something to both sides. How about stepping up and doing the same?

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 3:20 pm

<plonk!>

Now, back on topic.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 3:50 pm

Badger you are so predictable!

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:44 am

Posting e-mails. Some consider it a breech of online etiquette. May they go screw themselves and the horse they rode in on. If you are under attack and I've been there on this board, I will not hesitate to produce e-mails or other facts that will back up my position. I consider it a matter of self-defense. And when being attacked, etiquette can take a flying f##k. (Speaking of attacks, I'm taking bets on who will be the first one firing at me for saying that.)

Aw, I was hoping I'd be first!

Besides the "Pick a side and stay with it for more than 5 seconds, K" arguement that I'm really tempted to start here, I think you're full of shit.
It would have been quite simple enough to replay that AZ had gotten an email and the nature of it without posting it. "I recieved an email from the admin asking me to remove my avatar or be banned from the eplaya" would have been sufficeient.

So why post the email? Becuase the exact wording of it had to be disscited. Becuase "Technopatra's mean and she doesn't like me."

Though, personally, I think this whole arguement is moot--the email looks to me like a pretty standard (perhaps even automated) form letter. I'd like to think that people wouldn't take the wording in a form letter as a personal offense. Sheesh.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:19 am

Ivy, I love you too. Smooooch!

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:28 am

I am not looking at and relying on camps as a shopping venue- I'm not that stupid- even at the parties I go to regularly, I don't do that.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:35 am

Badger, instead of coming back with something negative to say, I'll reissue my request for you to add positive content, something with substance and thought behind it.

As for flip-flopping, this isn't about me. It's about building communities and you usually don't build bridges going from one bank to the other. You build from both sides and meet in the middle, meaning you have to cross over quite often to give each side it's share of time and attention. It's all in how you look at it. So howl all you want but that's what I do. And it works.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:37 am

off-topic

<plonk!>

Sensei · Post by **Sensei** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:53 am

Ivy wrote:...I think you're full of shit.

Sheesh, indeed.

angrykittie25 · Post by **angrykittie25** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:10 pm

Tancorix said

I'll reissue my request for you to add positive content, something with substance and thought behind it.

I'm just wondering why he should post positive content. Not everything here is positive, just like not everything in the real world is positive. He has every right to post whatever he feels or wants to without you telling him to be positive. You constantly talk about him and others on this board and expect them to come back with some cheery love injected post. I don't think that is realistic. I don't have any problems with you Tancorix, here or anywhere else, but you seem to be asking for negative coments. Although you tend to try to write post that are upbeat in nature, it is all too easy to see your private digs at others. If you wanted the negativity to stop, I would suggest ignoring those you have issues with completely and converse with those that are saying things more to your liking (sp?).
ob case studies. Maybe that could be a new case study. Why do many here feel that positive posts is a must? Without negative comments or alternating views, there would really be no discussion, now would there.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:02 pm

There's a stark difference between being jaded and negative which is fine, and crossing over to the realm of personal attacks and expressing joy at the misery of others. A few people seem to obtain pleasure from making fun of the mistakes of others, laughing at the newbies and their common mistakes, and in short it comes across as a form of online bullying. That is what I was referring to and having an issue with. And that is the kind of conduct I'd like to see changed. TP can't do it. Rules can't do it. It's going to take consistent pressure to make it happen. And that pressure starts with the users of this board. We must police ourselves and set the standards for what's acceptable and what's not. And I feel that some of the negativity I've seen and I admit been a part of is not right. Maybe I can help get people to work together and change it. This won't be about me, I hope it's about the community as a whole saying we want this place to be better than it is now.

So yeah, not everything has to be positive. But it doesn't have to be quite as negative either.

</soapbox>

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:30 pm

We must police ourselves and set the standards for what's acceptable and what's not. And I feel that some of the negativity I've seen and I admit been a part of is not right. Maybe I can help get people to work together and change it. This won't be about me,

Horshit darlin'. Everthing you've mentioned in the about post has multiple examples of you working to the contrary of what you claim. As for leading by example, you're no more walking the walk than Stephen Hawkings dances ballet. From the time you bounced into this arena in 2003 with your 6+ multiple personalities - not to mention several more on the other board many of whom you actually had arguing against each other for fuck sake to positively position your 'Kinetic' personae in the eyes of sympathetic but naive readers on both boards. That, COUPLED with your cyclical Syblefreak diatribes and cloth renting screechy meltdowns of persecution I'd say it has ALWAYS been about you.

Always.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:35 pm

Yeah! What she said.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:24 pm

Posted by a sock puppet? Pot, meet kettle. My, we look identical! I'm shocked!

Badger:
I came online in 2002, not 2003.
I have killed off all of my socks. Every last one is now gone. I no longer login to the 3Playa at all. And on this board, Tancorix is all I have left.

I had plenty of help running my socks, so what you perceived as self-started conversations was anything but. We fooled you good. You get an F for Sock 101. Class dismissed.

In any event, I admitted my mistakes and am trying to move on and work things out. You seem to be getting darker and darker. I worry about you. Before posting another rant, maybe you should sit down and think about things and engage in some deep introspection. There's help out there if you need it. It's obvious I hit a chord in you without having to bring out my crimson trump card. Maybe you should figure out why that happened?

I'll try and stop posting and let this thread get back on topic before TP runs me off the board. I wish you and your multiple personalities well and hope you get to feeling better soon.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:06 pm

HALT. STEP AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD.

Please before you post in this thread, ask yourself a couple of questions:

1 - is my post reporting, responding to, or commenting on a case study? If not, don't post here.

2 - is my post reacting to someone who's personality I don't like? If so, do not post here.

3 - will the other readers and contributors of the thread get a distinct feeling of deja vu when they read this post? If so, do not post here.

I accept that every ouple of months I have to remind you all that this forum is not open to every little swipe we feel we have to make.

Please stay on topic, guys. I really hate deleting irrelevant posts here, but not as much as I hate reading them.

zzberlin · Post by **zzberlin** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:09 pm

The Gang Hath Spoken

A || Z, haven't you realized yet that when The Gang doesn't like you,
you have be on your Best Behavior (double-standards be damned).

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:17 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:Dear Honorable and Wise Gods of the "Case Studies" Thread;

I humbly ask for a sitting of court.

I have been wrongly misunderstood and represented by accusations put forth by Techopatra and wish to present my
defense in this great and holy court on the matter of the avatar incident.

It is a great adage that "People see what they want to see and they hear what they wish to hear".

That is a great adage. But it is incorrectly applied. One naked child repeatedly yanking her naked siblings's penis, perhaps pleasurably or painfully but with no context other, is very clearly sketchy legal territory and it is up to me to keep this board from legal risk as much as I can. You broke a rule, I responded per the rules. No animosity, as you appeared to understand from the private correspondence we had following this action

The dramatic flair of the above request gave me a chuckle, but there is no need and does little to serve your point. This is an open forum and you've every right to discuss a casy study in which you are involved. I did not accuse you of anything here - I reported what you had done and my response, as I do with all admin actions that warrant discussion.

As to the sharing of emails - yes sharing private correspondence is wrong. We do have a specific Term against publishing content that does not belong to you. The ownership of emails may be a gray area legally, but not ethically.

The emails I send as an admin I do so for the privacy of the offender. I consider them simple statements fo fact. If you wish to share those, that's up to you. I stand by every one of them.

Apollonaris Zeus wrote: But what really bothered me was when I replied to her whether my "Caution! Center Camp Group Sex Ahead" avatar was also a violation, she didn't even reply back which further proved to me that a form of animosity existed which is why I went on a half cocked tirade to exposes the many posted thread violations- including an underage poster that was posting sexual explicit text. If I was totally offended I would have started a new thread to present my tirade.

1 - we already resolved the issue of the ignored email - I thought AIIZ was kidding and didn't warrant a reply. Then I asked him to send me the graphic to make a decision, asked him why he wanted to push this particular envelope. He indicated he wanted to help us find a limit. It was all quite genial until this posting.

2 - Half-cocked tirade indeed. If anyone has complaints, the only legitimate way to report them is to email eplaya@, where Emily and I are sure to see them and can respond. We can not and will not continually comb the boards for possible violations to act on and mostly rely on the community to draw specific issues to our attention as they deem necessary.

If you wish to foster discussion rather than action, the best place to do that is here. I propose that you merely wanted to get attention and point fingers rather than seriously challenge this issue through the proper channels.

Apollonaris Zeus wrote: I just wish to be exonerated as someone that was posting incestuous sexual content on the web and that it was just an innocent mistake of intent and all done in good fun!

All you had to do was present your side here, where I posted it the incident specifically for discussion, AIIZ, or discuss it with me directly.

I understand that it can be hard to act responsibility in the heat of the moment, and it is easier to cry personal foul. I am undisturbed by the accusation as it is clearly unwarranted.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:25 pm

zzberlin wrote:The Gang Hath Spoken

A || Z, haven't you realized yet that when The Gang doesn't like you,
you have be on your Best Behavior (double-standards be damned).

Sigh.

zzberlin, if you have a point, please make it rather than waste time and energy with vague sarcasm.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:54 pm

Ron wrote:
You're exactly right, I think, that a completely unmoderated board would expose the LLC to unnecessary liability. However, it seems to me that obscenity is the only worry here. If the legal situation is the only worry then the "common carrier," argument would protect you from violations of commerical speech, libel, and the like. Just as newspapers can't be sued if a letter to the editor is found to be libelous, I don't think you all would have a problem with any of the legally actionable kinds of speech, other than obscenity. And it's important to note that offensive speech is not legally actionable speech. We've all got a legal right to be as bigoted as we are, and to display that ignorance as we like.

Good to know, Ron, thank you for the clarification. Either way, obscenity definitely puts us at legal risk. Hate speech is simply not tolerated per the spirit of Burning Man, so we wrote it into the TOS. I don't want anyone to come here and have to accidentally see racial epithets.

Ron wrote:
However, I do disagree with the implication that in absence of a moderator meting down punnishment the expression of hate speech would be without consequences. There are a number of somewhat vocal members around here, seems to me, that would be more than happy to call folk on their crap, especially true if they felt it was up to them to do so.

..and yet during the stopbmorg debacle, I received many many requests to take action, some from the a couple of the most vociferous responders to it. It went on for weeks, and the offenders showed no sign of flagging. It was a combination of the community-led Mayo tactic and my booting of the worst offenders that finally resolved the problem.

I happened to be the first to respond to the "heeb" comment. It was up fr at least a couple of hours before I came across it. I wasn't going to let it sit there, hurting the thread originator, hoping that someone else would shout the guy down. Why should she have to suffer because no one else jumped to her rescue? She's my community, too.

Ron wrote: The most alive space I've yet to find, on-line, is a completely unmoderated email list with over 1000 members. When trolls and the like surface, the community deals with them...

I think it's apples & oranges, as an email list is still private correspondence. You sign up and the messages you write go to a limited (if large) number of people who have opted in to the list.

The eplaya on the other hand, is a public website. The Project is in a semi-vulnerable position by hosting it - we are legally liable for (at least some aspects of) the content here. And even legal stuff can be used against us by the media or any of a myriad law enforcement agencies and government officals that may have a bone to pick with the Event. They do exist and some of the Terms are designed specifically to help protect us from our enemies.

In any case I'd love to know more about the success of this list. What is the common bond among folks on this list? Is the email list open to anyone? Have you have issues with persistent trolls and sock puppets? Is it owned by an individual or an organization?

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:58 pm

Technopatra...I was just wondering what Admin thought of the prospects of the Israeli Burner Camp..........the organizer admits to not even recognizing the name "Palestine" and cites a bunch of Zionist url's in her postings....what's the official position on this camp? or is that the topic for another Admiin catagory?

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:08 pm

cowboyangel wrote:Technopatra...I was just wondering what Admin thought of the prospects of the Israeli Burner Camp..........the organizer admits to not even recognizing the name "Palestine" and cites a bunch of Zionist url's in her postings....what's the official position on this camp? or is that the topic for another Admiin catagory?

Good question. I saw that as a good example of what Ron was talking abut - effective community reaction. Folks said their peace and the topic (as far as I know, I haven't seen it in a while) died down of it's own accord.

I did not read through the urls and no one made a complaint about them. Her statement about Palestinians was certainly prejudiced but she did not point it at any specific individual, and she got shoutred down right quick and did not try to restate it. Where SSF did name a whole specific camp as "heebs" and then argued that it was not a racist statement.

ButI think I catch your drift - it was a hateful comment, if not stated with a hateful air.

What do you guys think?

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:17 pm

A || Z, haven't you realized yet that when The Gang doesn't like you,
you have be on your Best Behavior (double-standards be damned).

Cheap shot there Harriet. Not to mention top heavy with bullshit.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:45 pm

technopatra wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:Technopatra...I was just wondering what Admin thought of the prospects of the Israeli Burner Camp..........the organizer admits to not even recognizing the name "Palestine" and cites a bunch of Zionist url's in her postings....what's the official position on this camp? or is that the topic for another Admiin catagory?
Good question. I saw that as a good example of what Ron was talking abut - effective community reaction. Folks said their peace and the topic (as far as I know, I haven't seen it in a while) died down of it's own accord.

I did not read through the urls and no one made a complaint about them. Her statement about Palestinians was certainly prejudiced but she did not point it at any specific individual, and she got shoutred down right quick and did not try to restate it. Where SSF did name a whole specific camp as "heebs" and then argued that it was not a racist statement.

ButI think I catch your drift - it was a hateful comment, if not stated with a hateful air.

What do you guys think?

Well, this is a contentious issue to say the least, that is the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I guess I would have felt more at ease with the whole thing had the organizer at least mentioned a willingness to welcome in Palestinians or Arabs for a meal or a drink or something. I sent out links to Rabbi Michael Lerner's sites and his work......the guy has the most peaceful and balanced approach to the whole issue and can be found on http://www.tikkun.org

I agree with you that the feedback from eplayans was usefull and thought provoking......I was wondering only, what the official position might be.
Last year I did see a camp flying the confederate flag....but it seemed to be a fairly peaceful camp...... I'm a firm believer in acceptance, openess and non-judgementalness as long violence of any kind is left completely out of the mix.

Sensei · Post by **Sensei** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:22 pm

cowboyangel wrote:Technopatra...I was just wondering what Admin thought of the prospects of the Israeli Burner Camp..........the organizer admits to not even recognizing the name "Palestine" and cites a bunch of Zionist url's in her postings....what's the official position on this camp? or is that the topic for another Admiin catagory?

Now the admin is being asked to say nay or yay concerning camp themes?

I think I'll throw up now, if that's not against the "rules".

angrykittie25 · Post by **angrykittie25** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:45 pm

Now the admin is being asked to say nay or yay concerning camp themes?

I read it as he was first asking the admin about the post content, and then asking her is The Burning Man Organization had a problem with camps of that nature. I don't see any problem asking her if she knows if the higher up's have an opinion. No one said that the admin of the eplaya was now hand picking camps. Way to make a leap on that one. Is it just me or is everyone here really whiney lately? There are rules that you agree to when you register on the eplaya, why is it when those rules that everyone agreed to abide by are enforced, everyone starts freaking out?

ob case studies: I don't think that there were any complaints about the links in the israeli thread because, maybe people decided to disreguard the thread entirely because of the creator's original tone. I didn't care what they had to say, or any links they posted because they seemed to be swayed toward a type of thinking that I prefer to stay away from. So I never looked, therefore could not complain about things that I had not seen.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:48 am

had the organizer at least mentioned a willingness to welcome in Palestinians or Arabs for a meal or a drink or something.

I believe she did, if not specifically then generally. She said all were welcome. I believe you are letting your political zeal, much of which I respect, color your reaction to this. Her post was no more offensive in a political nature to your point of view than some of your posts, many of which I am sympathetic to, are offensive to the many members of this community who sit on the right hand side of the aisle. It is not fair to use a different standard of judgement in a particular case simply because someone agrees with you.

As an aside, all are not welcome in my camp, some expression will be forbidden, love is not unconditional.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:57 am

Sorry Stuart.

This is the only time I dissagree with you. I specifically PM'd Lizwiz as to how and why what she posted was offensive to my burner Arabian friends from Lebanon,Tunisia and Gaza and she responded with a link to suicide bombers bombing jews. Fact of the matter is , she is rude and chooses to be so.
She repects no one in the region that is not Jewish and has stated so.
She deserves the lack of respect she gives.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:20 pm

angrykittie25 wrote:
Now the admin is being asked to say nay or yay concerning camp themes?
I read it as he was first asking the admin about the post content, and then asking her is The Burning Man Organization had a problem with camps of that nature. I don't see any problem asking her if she knows if the higher up's have an opinion. No one said that the admin of the eplaya was now hand picking camps. Way to make a leap on that one.

Ahh...ok I missed the jump from asking me what the Admin position was on the post to representing the Project's opinion on the camp.

My response regards the former. I have neither authority nor desire to speak to the latter. I have nothing to do with themecamps beyond adminning the technical help requests for the forms, and have no access to the decision-makers' opinions on any new camps.

I've got enough politics to deal with here, thank you very much *wink*

angrykittie25 wrote: Is it just me or is everyone here really whiney lately? There are rules that you agree to when you register on the eplaya, why is it when those rules that everyone agreed to abide by are enforced, everyone starts freaking out?

Well we may not be a democracy here, but I still think it's valuable for folks to sometimes challenge the actions based on the rules - that's why I supported III in starting this thread and have maintained it since he did.

Some of the rules live in GreyAreaTown, so I welcome discussion around some decisions I or the other admins make. I do have to admit, tho, that the discussions would be more focused, engaging, and effective without the ego-centered postings.

case studies

here we go again....

Re: An Appeal to the Gods!