Sock Puppets

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:13 pm

oops!

I forgot, The smilie thing ticks them off too.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:36 am

The more I’m here, the more I'm starting to believe that it could be just me and one or two other people. One of which is perhaps in a cabin somewhere the wilds of the Pacific Northwest. Who may well be a Sasquatch.... a lonely, lonely Sasquatch.

As for socks... got no use for 'em, 'cept fer ma feet. I barely have enough time to compose my own long winded posts, much less ones for an alter ego.

Have fun jabbering with your funky selves...

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:41 am

Ted Kaczinski's twin perhaps, in a little cabin deep in the Montana wilderness?

One sock is fine, actually Iso sets the standard on how to have a sock and do it with class. (The makeup is another story).

I spent a lot of time thinking about this last night and my opinion (which means nothing) is that the eplaya needs to actively discourage socks. It's just too disruptive. I would like to keep the option for one sock, but there's not a way to track how many someone has...which means there's no checks and balances for keeping the process fair. So level the playing field and ban 'em all.

Niacin · Post by **Niacin** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:45 am

No, sir, I don't like them. 90% of socks are nothing but noise.

Cheers,
Max

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:16 am

Sigh.

To me, all your fake online IDs are socks pulled over your real ID's head.

Imagine it must get stinky in there, but I guess you get used to your own stank.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:36 am

Tancorix wrote:Thank you for confirming what I wondered about. Unlike some who will likely have issues with it and having run "socks" in the past; it takes some work to pull it off and I admire how well you do it.

Anyway I'll drop the issue and move on but I appreciate the honesty.

Not So Long Ago........

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:08 pm

<----------------

no socks
(pants though)

Tiara · Post by **Tiara** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:16 pm

My take on socks:

With the rare exception of a few socks which have been used for humorous counterpoint, they very much lessen my experience, and my overall desire to participate in any online forum.

The old eplaya is the first chat/forum I was ever regularly involved in. What drew me in was that it was a way to meet people who I was then able to connect with in real life. My personal taste (and please note that I'm not assuming this is the same for everyone) tends away from purely electronic interactions. I'm simply not interested in spending time "getting to know" someone who is a construct. Nor am I interested in playing the part of guinea pig in the "social experiments" of anyone orchestrating multiple online personas.

Yes, words and pixels are the basis of our interaction here. But their value to me is the insight they give about a real person out there who is, or may become, a friend.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:19 pm

By its nature, the eplaya assumes that users value familiarity with the conventions both of Burning Man and of online forums in general. This should include an understanding of and respect for self-sufficiency, responsibility, and of participation without interfering in other people's experience to an extreme degree.

The anonymity and multiple login identities allowed active users on the eplaya reflects that employed by many active Burning Man participants, who may choose to present others with a particular radio alias, or maybe a complete change of identity & costume simply on whim.

On the playa or the eplaya, I figure all this is not for me to judge -- abuse of the board is mostly a separate issue. Here I value staying on-topic and nominally informative in threads related to Q&A about the event, balanced by wider latitude in areas such as General Discussion.

So, I don't care what alias someone uses here, as long as they don't persist in being abusive of others and of the value of the board for Burning-Man-related communication, for Newbies, lurkers, & active posters.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:58 pm

So predictably there is a mixed reaction to sock puppets, tho it certainly seems to lean heavily in the socks-hinder-my-experience category.

When we decided to go with this product, we made a conscious decision to require only an email, and we felt requiring anything else would be a big deterrent to use of the boards.

Later on, when we experienced the socks full force, started getting complaints, and began wrking on the CG and TOS, we found that :

a) except in the most outlandish of cases (stopbmorg, the allanons, the digimans) it's pretty damn difficult to determine whether someone is a true sock, or simply an ornery troublemaker hiding behind a username. Even folks "outing" themselves on the list are not necesarily telling the truth.

b) some of the socks were really, really funny, enhancing the user experience of the boards.

Now I personally share Tiara's opinoin that I don't want to waste my time with figments of someone's imagination - I came here to connect with real people, and it is my goal for the eplaya to connect Burners with real Burners.

Now, the only way that I can think of to disallow socks is to require more personal information upon registration - REALLY personal info, like a credit card number that can be validated but not charged.

I was, and still am, not ok with this for a few reasons:

a) many Burners don't have credit cards

b) many folks simply are not comfortable giving out their cc numbers

c) it creates an even bigger security issue for us to manage

So that's really not an option.

Basically I agree with Bob - it is only by having a culture of ignoring flammable sock puppets, and contributing to better covnersations, that we can reduce their impact on the eplaya.

So the big question is - who's with me? Who is up for vowing to check their own responses, and not feed the socks?

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:45 pm

So the big question is - who's with me? Who is up for vowing to check their own responses, and not feed the socks?

I'm just waiting for the PLONK option. That take care of 95% of it for me.

Alpha · Post by **Alpha** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:10 pm

Admins should not have to play sleuth just to determine whether or not someone should be able to post here.

It's just a fucking, BBS.

(same sentiment goes for the panty-wadding going on in the Case Studies thread -- why would anyone want to admin this board when all they get is shit from the users?)

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:53 am

Admins always get shit everywhere. Doesn't matter what company they are with.

From the days when I was working with cp/m and RPG I, II, III, IBM 360-380 (during those times Admins were called system operators, sys opps.) to now, the complaints were generally the same as they are today. The only difference is, then, it was mostly the owners that were complaining. Usually because they had no idea what the computer could do and how computers could be implemented into their company.
These days with the added GUI, a better and easier way to work with computers, it amazes me how and why the complaints still keep coming.

Socks,

When socks first were used on this new version of the board, I found the prospect of using one rather amusing. Thus my creating a thread to that affect months ago. IMHO socks were going ok, (Alice, Isotopia, Mr.K. and I.) because they were not used in a malicious way up until the DIGIMAN.,DUFECTO and allanons appeared. The user and the sock got blurred.
I think the issues at that time should have been addressed. Things got out of wack so to speak. What I consider to be my socks, I don’t use much. (I'm sure no one has noticed.) A select few see DVD and DF to be my socks. They are not. They are just extensions of me.
I think the few that have problems with DF/DVD are not sock issues but a point of view issue. They have confused it. It should be, they disagree with my point of view. That's ok. It's America; everyone is entitled to do so. IMHO, users will always complain even after the plonker is deployed. Either you'll get a complaint about the plonker or you'll get a complaint about something else. And usually it will be from the same indivisuals, and this is from my experience as an Admin for 20 years, experience that includes being an Admin/consultant for the Goldman Sachs Admins to being an admin for Glide memorial. All walks of life. It's all the same.

As far as socks goes, I really don't think you'll see much of that on this board as it evolves. It will take a diffrent direction from what I'm seeing.

I think enthropic put it best.

allanon2 · Post by **allanon2** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:02 pm

[quo.,DUFECTO and allanons appeared. The user and the sock got blurred.

this is just were it gets sad

i am myself
was always myself

had someone mock me. (do epopel think that the other allanon was me? wow thats scary

if peopel cant tell hat i never had a sock then you will never be able to identify most socks. as you thought i was a sock

ohh well. did you knwo peopel think that black rock rick. BRR was me
we are totaly differnt people. along with all the other peopel that thought they were socks of me

so in short. peopel here are horrible at identifyign who is or is not a sock. thus ppeople will always be parnoid of a potentialsock. i would love to take a poll and see if those people beleive in conspiracy therories?

ttyl
rex

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:26 am

Exactly my point, Rex. It's difficult to tell.

Creating multiple accounts and presenting yourself an multiple users is exactling the definition of a sock.

There were 3 Allanons. You are now #2. Were you also #1? Then help me understand why you would create a second account with the same name while the first one was active. That is creating a sock puppet.

If not, then why would you choose to copy someone else's username?

These are not accusations, but questions. I look forward to hearing your responses.

However if you wish to continue to be welcome on this thread, you will stop with the "you people" statements right now. I have no time for troll in the Eplaya Feedback discussions, and anything that falls outside of useful feedback and thoughtful discussion is going to be considered trolling and deleted.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:58 pm

[ObTrollBait] Sometimes you just can't fit all the pswds & vi commands on the same brain cell, I'd imagine.

allanon2 · Post by **allanon2** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:03 pm

i lost my password so that is why I created allanon2.

or maybe i didn't lose maybe ack i forget but i think i forgot what email i used for that acount.

so thats why I didn't want to bother you so i just crated anouther and never used the first one

technopatra wrote:Exactly my point, Rex. It's difficult to tell.

Creating multiple accounts and presenting yourself an multiple users is exactling the definition of a sock.

There were 3 Allanons. You are now #2. Were you also #1? Then help me understand why you would create a second account with the same name while the first one was active. That is creating a sock puppet.

If not, then why would you choose to copy someone else's username?

These are not accusations, but questions. I look forward to hearing your responses.

However if you wish to continue to be welcome on this thread, you will stop with the "you people" statements right now. I have no time for troll in the Eplaya Feedback discussions, and anything that falls outside of useful feedback and thoughtful discussion is going to be considered trolling and deleted.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:18 pm

Bob's post seems a little out of place when followed up by what I feel is a very reasonable explanation. Perhaps an apology would be in order, after all we all make mistakes or forget things.

And I'll start it by saying that A2, I apologize for misunderstanding why you made the second account. I don't always agree with what you post, but I was out of line to say the things I said to you. I hope you'll accept this public apology.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:32 am

Oh, the tears of a clone...

The irony of this "sock-puppet" bullcrap is that the artist formerly known as de facto is actually great for this BBS, on the whole. He represents something other than the humorless, button-pushing, self-sanctified, sophomoric true-believer attitudes of those who get a huge fart twisted about things that have nothing substantial to do with what you or I or anyone do at the event -- or on the eplaya.

I'll take my ten Hail Marys in private, if you please, Father.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:15 am

Now see. No attack from me was provoked, yet our admin insists that Bob be allowed to do this.

No insult to TP intended but as you can see, I have been steering clear of Bob. I have also stated my position on socks and how it gets blurred. Bob purposely does as I've described.

Bob can insult me as much as he likes. I understand, he's not capable of doing it in person so he needs an outlet, grant you, I can promise he will get out of control and cross the line to the point it will be undeniable by all in the eplya community. Sure there will be those that will say not possible, but mark my word he will. Trey has enough sense to know when and how to go about things. He even knows when an apology is in order.

Bob will take it too far because he's not smart enough to recognize that this is a message board. He takes all personally and he can’t face me personally.

He creates drama and loves it.

No need to go to TOS/CG on this. I have time. I will wait for Bob's next and last mistake. It's guaranteed

I shall now sit back and watch.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:22 am

Oh and to Bobs question about me volunteering,

Yes.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:09 am

"If you feed a problem enough rope, sometimes it hangs itself"...

Regarding Bob, a look at his comments after mine speak volumes more than anything I can say.

This board has a perfectly capable admin who has the ability to put on the boots and kick ass as required. I'll leave this issue in her hands.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:51 am

Was that a complement from Bob?

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:16 pm

ok guys, we are running a very thin line between sharing our thoughts and using this forum as an opportunity to bash the person that bugs us the most.

Bob - I know that stating your opinions in the affirmative isn't your style, and that's fine, but stop with the sniping. If you can't discuss sock puppet culture without the backhanded viciousness, then leave this discussion.

DVD B - stop escalating. You do not have to respond to every post. Using the excuse that other people are the ones keeping these kind of trash threads going is to deny your responsibility in the matter. You are also invited to leave this discussion unless you back off of the personal issues.

Allanon02 - thank you for clearing up the question about your username. In the future, please feel free to avail yourself of my help.

Everyone - I know this is a divisive issue, however I know that if we all exhibit just a wee bit of self-control, you can rationally discuss this without the finger-pointing and self-righteousness that kills conversation. Please take a couple of deep breaths before posting.

Back on topic:

As I look at this and other discussions that devolve into sock-baiting, it seems that we have been loose with our terminology. A lot of accusations of sock puppetry seem to really be issues of trolling.

The most obvious observations I can make are:

1) True sock puppetry - the use of multiple accounts to promote or attack a particular opinion/stand - has actually rarely happened on the eplaya.

2) Folks tend to cry "j'accuse, sock puppet!" in response to posters who they feel are
a) lying
b) behaving illogically/incoherently
c) purposely trying to rile people up
There is therefore a judgement about the posters motivations being made. How often might we be wrong when we make these judgements? How often is it that we are just annoyed by their message/tone/posting style?

3) It is frustrating to be considered a sock, especially after providing personal info.

Ok no great conclusions here just yet. It just seems that if folks conduct themselves with a little more tolerance and stop jumping at negative bait, sock puppets become a non-issue.

Any more thoughts on this?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:51 am

DVD Burner wrote:Was that a complement from Bob?

Shirley... when the Gang of Five gets together over teacups of bile (milk first, pls), I'm one of your biggest defenders. Many of your one-liners are pretty damned funny. It's still mainly the cobbled-together phpBB graphical interface that makes discussions difficult to navigate for those who want to skim through and read what they choose, and avoid what they don't.

"Sock" is getting tossed around here like "witch" in a Monty Python flick. It's silly. The Guidelines -- as if they were needed -- already say that multiple logins are discouraged, not prohibited. This board is for discussion of Burning Man and related topics, mostly, but allows for areas where broader discussion can take place. This board allows you to log on as Melvin Q. Watchpocket if you like. I choose not to, but I can respect anybody's inclination to log in as a cartoon character as long as they don't drag down on-topic discussions into their own personal paranoid hell.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:09 am

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:11 am

hhmmmmmnnnn

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Wed May 26, 2004 6:09 am

Bob wrote:This board allows you to log on as Melvin Q. Watchpocket if you like.

Couldn't any other name have been used... it seems to me, the proper name "Melvin" sure gets dumped on alot.

and now you all know why i prefer "joel"

Lilly Flower · Post by **Lilly Flower** » Wed May 26, 2004 6:21 am

Simply Joel wrote:
Bob wrote:This board allows you to log on as Melvin Q. Watchpocket if you like.
Couldn't any other name have been used... it seems to me, the proper name "Melvin" sure gets dumped on alot.

and now you all know why i prefer "joel"

Well, my goodness. I would'nt mind if you used the name Lilly Flower for awhile.

Sock Puppets

I still cant beleive that peopel think i had a sock

yes i was also allanon but i lost my password :)

Melvin Joel W.

Re: Melvin Joel W.