Does anyone have experience driving steel posts into the playa?

[soaringDude]

That time of year again...

Working on an art installation that is calling for 62 posts to be installed. I started by having base plates and anchoring but quickly gave up. I am leaving toward using a post driver to drive 1 5/8" such 40 posts 4' into the playa. Does anyone have experience with a similar setup? Would love to ask about your experiences both for installation and removal.

[The Rod]

What kind of posts are you using? I have successfully used t-posts before with a manual post pounder on the playa. The playa is hard, it is hard work to pound posts into the playa but it can be done. 4 feet deep is going to be quite a workout... They do make electric and gas powered post drivers depending on your budget considerations. For removal, use a post puller, pour a little bit of water around the base of the post and let soak for little bit to soften the playa makes for easier extraction.

[soaringDude]

Thanks for the quick reply. I am planning on using schedule 40, 1-5/8” or 1-7/8 steel pipes that are 14’ tall (stick above playa about 10’ at the end). Planning on using a gas powered post driver to put them in and a high jack and chain to pull them out. We have 62 of these so a fair bit of work. But what’s art without a bit of sweat and tear

[ygmir]

driving them 4' into the playa is a tall order. Especially off a ladder, or platform of some sort. I'd say the only way you'll get that deep is to auger a hole, first.
Unless, of course, you have some actually heavy machinery.
curious, too, why 4'? are you worried about a straight pull out, or a lever and pull out (side angle pull).
Knowing what you're trying to do, might help with advisors here.
1 5/8 steel pipe is stout, for sure. You might want to find out if you really need to go 4' deep to do what you want?
Also, it'd be good to have the penetrating end sealed and pointed.

[Token]

What you need is search a bit and see how Sarge does it.

Sarge gone done it every which way.

Camp is Sextant.

Device is massive Tesla Coil.

Other than Bob, rest his soul … Sarge is The Man for pounding, drilling, and securing the truly large stuff to the Playa.

Use the search here on EPlaya and look at the user posts for - torrey.smith

Here is a handy link … lots of videos and deep dive topics you can enjoy.

https://eplaya.burningman.org/search.ph ... mit=Search

[Token]

FWIW, the land use permit prohibits anything deeper than 3’

And them is rules on diameter + you gotta store anything dug out, then replace and compact to original condition.

Best direction is to contact Art Support as they will have the most updated regulations.

They may also help with a big bad auger and drill those up for you.

[soaringDude]

Thanks for all the info. I have been talking to the ASS team and they have been very helpful and amazingly responsive. I guess part of the problem is solved, 3' it is

I will follow up with Sarge, thanks a lot for the link and info. Really been hoping to find someone that has done this before and I could pick their brain, mostly to give myself some more confidence this is a good route vs. base plates and lag bolts, betting on getting a lot more lateral stability by driving the posts.

[soaringDude]

Just in case anyone is interested in the result of this query, here is an update:

Tracked and got a change to have a quick chat with Sarge. He felt what we are thinking of doing is pretty straightforward and doable. He gave me a few things to think about, one of which was don't go to the playa with one post driver! Great advise. But overall it seems pounding 2" pipes 3' deep into the playa with a post driver is possible (how hard it is varies from year to year) but possible and practical and it would provide a fair bit of horizontal stability to the post, certainly seems to be enough for our use case.

We will build a section of the piece and maybe even go to the playa early in the season and drive them in and learn a bit from the process and validate our procedures.

[ygmir]

Just in case anyone is interested in the result of this query, here is an update:

Tracked and got a change to have a quick chat with Sarge. He felt what we are thinking of doing is pretty straightforward and doable. He gave me a few things to think about, one of which was don't go to the playa with one post driver! Great advise. But overall it seems pounding 2" pipes 3' deep into the playa with a post driver is possible (how hard it is varies from year to year) but possible and practical and it would provide a fair bit of horizontal stability to the post, certainly seems to be enough for our use case.

We will build a section of the piece and maybe even go to the playa early in the season and drive them in and learn a bit from the process and validate our procedures.

if you wanted increase lateral stability, you might also consider welding a plate on each post, so it would be a little sub surface after being driven in, and orient it perpendicular to the load. It will increase the surface area dramatically in the upper, softer layers of the playa.

[Token]

I’ll sidestep here with story time, being a gentleman farmer up in the foothills couple hours East of you …

… I’ve sunk more posts into dirt than the average bear. Wood posts, steel posts, 30’ antenna mast …

And in a range of soils, from loom to compacted clay …

One thing became very clear to me over the decades.

The joys of accomplishing such grand feats of strength and endurance are inversely proportional to the volume of grey in the beard.

I cannot recommend strongly enough the Utility and Versatility of an auger, preferably attached to a nice big piece of machinery, like a tractor.

Heck, these days I pre-drill even for concrete form stakes with a demo-hammer and 18” masonry bit.

Auger undersized, still pound it in, but save them shoulders for the week of fun!

[unjonharley]

I use a steel pipe with a welded end to drive T-post. Store bought post drivers do not have the punch. But will do. "BUT". Getting the post out at then end of BM is another story. Went to the farm store and bought a T-post puller. It is a thick steel plate, few inches wide and some long. The puller plate can only be used with a post jack. Burning Man can come to hate you, if you leave the post for them to pull. The street sign post are pulled with a front-end bucket. "PACK IT IN PACK IT OUT" p.s. the lever action pullers are a joke on the playa. The playa floor is some kind of unforgiving &(^$@.

[soaringDude]

unjonharley & Token, just to be very clear, I am talking about using a gas powered post driver rated for 3" pipes with a 2" adapter to fit over my 1.9" OD pipes, not the manual heavy pipe with a handle type.



Titan Post Driver

I have driven a few posts, definitely not very experienced but was told these guys pound them even into the playa.

And for pulling them out the plan is to use a chain around the pipe and a high lift jack similar to this video. I have pulled t-posts 2.5' deep this way and each post took 2-3min to pull out. Super easy (and they had wings welded to the side for stability. Never done that with pipes personally.

[soaringDude]

if you wanted increase lateral stability, you might also consider welding a plate on each post, so it would be a little sub surface after being driven in, and orient it perpendicular to the load. It will increase the surface area dramatically in the upper, softer layers of the playa.

Excellent suggestion. I've been told by a number of folks that my 1.9"od pipe should have enough surface area to give me plenty of vertical stability, even with a 9' moment wind force transferring to the top of the pipe. But before committing to it one way or another I will be doing a few tests in different soils, and if the playa is dry enough maybe even on the playa or another nearby dry lake and make a final decision. Adding plates just make it so much harder to put the suckers in and take them out too.

[unjonharley]

[soaringDude]

But seriously if with this clarification you still believe this is going to be a challenging job with 62 columns, I really love to hear about it. I just wanted to make sure it was clear what I am planning on doing.

[ygmir]

if you wanted increase lateral stability, you might also consider welding a plate on each post, so it would be a little sub surface after being driven in, and orient it perpendicular to the load. It will increase the surface area dramatically in the upper, softer layers of the playa.

Excellent suggestion. I've been told by a number of folks that my 1.9"od pipe should have enough surface area to give me plenty of vertical stability, even with a 9' moment wind force transferring to the top of the pipe. But before committing to it one way or another I will be doing a few tests in different soils, and if the playa is dry enough maybe even on the playa or another nearby dry lake and make a final decision. Adding plates just make it so much harder to put the suckers in and take them out too.

often, there is an inverse proportionality of:
Makes it stronger, less likely to fail and:
Easy to do/set up/install.

Just a thought, aimed at: If it fails, it'll be really bad, and I'll wish I had gone the extra mile...

[Token]

unjonharley & Token, just to be very clear, I am talking about using a gas powered post driver rated for 3" pipes with a 2" adapter to fit over my 1.9" OD pipes, not the manual heavy pipe with a handle type.

You’re bringing more than one, right?

Looks like a nifty little device.

[soaringDude]

Yes. Interestingly that was Sarge’s feedback too. Planning on bringing two