Propane cannons

Bluemandrew · Post by **Bluemandrew** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:36 am

Not sure that's the official term, but you all know what I mean. The ubiquitous easy to build flame thrower for everyone's playa needs...

I'm wondering if anyone knows what kind of permit/license etc one would need to be able to use these at events outside of BM.

Is there a difference between being able to operate one of these at a show versus say, fireworks (which I know how to get licensed for)?

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:26 am

Drew, contact our very own Capt. Joe. Remember the one he had on the Barbie Whoreshouse Mobile? If he needed permits he would have gotten them. Let me know if you need his addy.

Post by **mdmf007** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:14 am

Its a flame effect - look up Pyrotechnics in your municipality, state, county, etc.

licenses needed in many locations

AKAparttime · Post by **AKAparttime** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:35 am

To make a long story short get in touch with your local fire Captain and show him or her what you are doing, fore the most part these folks are cool and can help. In my case I had a hot air balloon burner set up next to my camp ( at Rebirth here in Hawaii ) and our fire Captain comes walking up and asked me if I know how big the flame is, I say 6 ft he tells me 16 ft and to shut it down.
The moral of the story is over build so it wont tip over or blow up..

skibear · Post by **skibear** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:01 pm

It's all about safety. Safety first !! (.....not third !!..)

In 2007 a bunch of very cool techie guys were camped near me.
Their name is FIREDOG. They had about a dozen flame devices,
cannons, dragons, war machines and other propane fired stuff that
was incredible beyond words.

A large cannon of theirs had been used at stadiums and festivals
and the local fire department (Phoenix?) passed it with flying colors
and gave them kudo's for the number of safety devices included.
Don't know if these guys are on Eplaya.

HTH

Token · Post by **Token** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:48 pm

In general, most states have specific fire codes developed.

Nationally, there are two main code sources: Unified Fire Code and National Fire Protection Agency. (UFC and NFPA).

Californias code is based on the UFC standards.

The NFPA however has a very good standard for Flame Effects Before An Audience and even states like CA will accept devices built to this standard.

Get a copy of NFPA 160.

Also used and taught by the Flaming Lotus Girls in their training seminars.

Bluemandrew · Post by **Bluemandrew** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:27 am

Excellent, thanks everyone.

I was a firefighter in the town Im moving back to for a few years, so depending on what kind of pissy mood everyone is I should be okay with them. I'll find NFPA 160 though, that sounds very useful.

What I was primarily trying to figure out is if there was a different type of pyro license for flame effects vs fireworks, which it doesn't sound like there is. That's good news for me, because while there's plenty of fireworks crews around, there's not much in the way of special effects.

Token · Post by **Token** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:20 pm

There is a huge difference between flame effect operators and pyrotechncs operators.

Pyrotechnics are heavily regulated and requite both vocational licenses, with many levels of licensing plus individual permits for each event. Most pyro folks must go the apprentice route and slowly advance their level over years of work.

Flame effects are just one-off permits and inspections per event. Few states have actual licensing. I think Texas has a formal exam and stuff. Most others just have you fill out forms, pay an per event or annual fee and show proof of insurance or bond.

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:46 pm

in Portland, FOGBANK is treated like somewhat like pyrotechnics, because they don't have a flame effect permit category.
Fire marshall claims no juristiction over private residence usage (no permit). On commercial/public property, a permit is req'd, plus $1,000,000.00 insurance. Oregon State Firemarshall says it is not pyrotechnic.

here's a link to some photo's taken by captain smashy of FOGBANK on the playa
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cptsmashy/ ... 186654716/

Fuel Oxygen Gas Binary Acoustic Nimbo Kinetic transducer, uses oxy and propane

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:53 am

Token wrote:Flame effects are just one-off permits and inspections per event. Few states have actual licensing. I think Texas has a formal exam and stuff. Most others just have you fill out forms, pay an per event or annual fee and show proof of insurance or bond.

Texas follows NFPA guidelines for licensing.

The three pyrotechnics licenses here are:

Pyrotechnics License. Covers only the operation of the big firework displays. Part of the licensing process is to shoot 5 shows under a licensed operator and have them sign off on your application before taking the test.

Special Effects Operators License. Covers "close proximity" pyrotechnics. Everything from small charges used as bullet hits to arena style pyrotechnics. I have this license.

Flame Effects Operators License. Instituted as a knee jerk response to the Great White concert fire. Covers the use of any open flame device. Fire poi, a propane camp fire rig for a performance, etc. I need to get this license.

Here's the kicker between the last two.
If I take a #5 bullet hit charge and attach it to a person to simulate a gun shot wound without a license, its a minor misdemeanor offense despite the fact that if it is rigged wrong, it can kill someone.

If I take a propane cylinder, attach a hose with a circular burner and have a 4 inch flame simulating a campfire without a license, its a felony.

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:55 am

What's even more ridiculous about the rational behind the flame effects license here is that the pyro used at the Great White show would have required a close proximity effects license and not a flame effects license.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:35 am

CapSmashy wrote:
Token wrote:Flame effects are just one-off permits and inspections per event. Few states have actual licensing. I think Texas has a formal exam and stuff. Most others just have you fill out forms, pay an per event or annual fee and show proof of insurance or bond.
Texas follows NFPA guidelines for licensing.

The three pyrotechnics licenses here are:

Pyrotechnics License. Covers only the operation of the big firework displays. Part of the licensing process is to shoot 5 shows under a licensed operator and have them sign off on your application before taking the test.

Special Effects Operators License. Covers "close proximity" pyrotechnics. Everything from small charges used as bullet hits to arena style pyrotechnics. I have this license.

Flame Effects Operators License. Instituted as a knee jerk response to the Great White concert fire. Covers the use of any open flame device. Fire poi, a propane camp fire rig for a performance, etc. I need to get this license.

Here's the kicker between the last two.
If I take a #5 bullet hit charge and attach it to a person to simulate a gun shot wound without a license, its a minor misdemeanor offense despite the fact that if it is rigged wrong, it can kill someone.

If I take a propane cylinder, attach a hose with a circular burner and have a 4 inch flame simulating a campfire without a license, its a felony.

Before, I wouldn't have given two thoughts to the legal issues surrounding flame effects. But, after the fun experience resulting from firing an ak47, in my studio apartment, id cross my t's and dot my i's, where the law is concerned.

Foxfur · Post by **Foxfur** » Tue May 31, 2011 9:09 am

TomServo wrote: Before, I wouldn't have given two thoughts to the legal issues surrounding flame effects. But, after the fun experience resulting from firing an ak47, in my studio apartment, id cross my t's and dot my i's, where the law is concerned.

I've read about that in some older thread(s).
Sorry you had to go through that for being a stand-up guy
and taking responsibility for it. I wish the authorities would have
recognized that fact and given you credit when due.

Funny, I have an AK-47 "Indoor Range" story of my own.
10yrs back we were having coyote problems.
They were eating our cats and chewing on the calves.
I'm on the computer and out the window notice a coyote.
Just 25yds away. I sink below the window sill,
low crawl over to the AK (everyone should have at least
one in their computer room), and sneak back to the window.
It's already open. No way to remove the screen without alerting
Wiley to his impending demise. Have to shoot through the screen.
I can live with that. I ease up and rest the muzzle on the window frame.
I gently stroke the trigger. The fucker runs off!
Iron sights on an AK are elevated above the bore.
In the heat of battle I neglected to check my rest.
I ended up with a hole in the window frame.
And more dead cats. We resorted to a command detonated
flash pot with a can of dog food atop it.
He looked just like Wiley did when his crap would blow up in his face.
Priceless.
Should have stenciled "ACME" on the pot...
The window frame still has the hole.
A reminder that I need to check my shit like a proctologist.

Ff

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue May 31, 2011 1:42 pm

Foxfur wrote:
TomServo wrote: Before, I wouldn't have given two thoughts to the legal issues surrounding flame effects. But, after the fun experience resulting from firing an ak47, in my studio apartment, id cross my t's and dot my i's, where the law is concerned.

I've read about that in some older thread(s).
Sorry you had to go through that for being a stand-up guy
and taking responsibility for it. I wish the authorities would have
recognized that fact and given you credit when due.

Funny, I have an AK-47 "Indoor Range" story of my own.
10yrs back we were having coyote problems.
They were eating our cats and chewing on the calves.
I'm on the computer and out the window notice a coyote.
Just 25yds away. I sink below the window sill,
low crawl over to the AK (everyone should have at least
one in their computer room), and sneak back to the window.
It's already open. No way to remove the screen without alerting
Wiley to his impending demise. Have to shoot through the screen.
I can live with that. I ease up and rest the muzzle on the window frame.
I gently stroke the trigger. The fucker runs off!
Iron sights on an AK are elevated above the bore.
In the heat of battle I neglected to check my rest.
I ended up with a hole in the window frame.
And more dead cats. We resorted to a command detonated
flash pot with a can of dog food atop it.
He looked just like Wiley did when his crap would blow up in his face.
Priceless.
Should have stenciled "ACME" on the pot...
The window frame still has the hole.
A reminder that I need to check my shit like a proctologist.

Ff

The police were actually pretty cool. The initial charge was misdemeanor gross negligence. Once the DA got ahold of it, It became a felony, with two more felonies tacked on. Here's the funny part....They were willing to drop the GN charge, and firing at an inhabited residence, if I plead guilty to possession of an illegal "assault weapon", forget that I may have actually have been trying to kill someone. Guess words carry more weight than actions. The DA's assistant was not happy, when I provided my DOJ letter, and it was knocked back down to misdemeanor GN...Should have been a fine, but they gave me 3 months house arrest. I would never have gone through all that, if it were my much more powerful and accurate Swedish Mauser.

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Tue May 31, 2011 1:46 pm

See what happens when you vote in Democrats?

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue May 31, 2011 1:49 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:See what happens when you vote in Democrats?

Whats his face lost, the rest I voted libertarian.

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Tue May 31, 2011 2:27 pm

many 'agencies having jurisdiction' don't know what to do about flame effects. That's why I got an Oregon Pyrotechnic Operator' license. Tomorrow taking the Washington test.

Besides Display Fireworks is a lot of fun! (in additon to a lot of work and a bit dangerous)

Foxfur · Post by **Foxfur** » Tue May 31, 2011 2:40 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:See what happens when you vote in Democrats?

That's why me and my 'black' guns left California...
DOJ registration?
Never.

EspressoDude wrote:That's why I got an Oregon Pyrotechnic Operator' license.

Yup. We've got to talk...

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue May 31, 2011 2:47 pm

My AK was gloss black, with beautiful wood accessories. And no cleaning rod. Her name was Lucy....They took my sawed off double barrel too!

MyDearFriend · Post by **MyDearFriend** » Tue May 31, 2011 5:29 pm

(((Tom)))

I am sorry for your loss.

Edited to add:

I bring one of these to every wake.

Here's to Lucy.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue May 31, 2011 5:55 pm

Thank you MDF!!! heres a good one.... was at 4th of juplaya, Had all the AK's, M-16s, sawed offs, etc,out... A BLM ranger rolled up on us...took one look at the guns, and asked for our fireworks permit.

MyDearFriend · Post by **MyDearFriend** » Tue May 31, 2011 7:02 pm

Bwahahahaha, Tom, did you have one to show him?

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:09 pm

evenually, yeah

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:14 pm

TomServo wrote:Thank you MDF!!! heres a good one.... was at 4th of juplaya, Had all the AK's, M-16s, sawed offs, etc,out... A BLM ranger rolled up on us...took one look at the guns, and asked for our fireworks permit.

Maybe i missed something... WTF does a fireworks permit have to do with firearms??

-Badger

Foxfur · Post by **Foxfur** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:27 pm

[quote="TomServo]My AK was gloss black, with beautiful wood accessories. And no cleaning rod. Her name was Lucy....They took my sawed off double barrel too![/quote]

Fuckedy fuckin fuck fuckers!
Now they're in rebar or a cop's closet.
Back to the first verse.

I'm goin SBR on the Draco and AR pistols
as soon as the form 1's get back...
Thinking of doing a PDW conversion on the GSG MP5PK
with a side folder and kelly grip.
The AR has a stubby little 8 inch barrel.
It's like a bomb going off in your face.
A very nice bomb.

Ff[/quote]

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:27 pm

capjbadger wrote:
TomServo wrote:Thank you MDF!!! heres a good one.... was at 4th of juplaya, Had all the AK's, M-16s, sawed offs, etc,out... A BLM ranger rolled up on us...took one look at the guns, and asked for our fireworks permit.
Maybe i missed something... WTF does a fireworks permit have to do with firearms??

-Badger

ask him
this is a little embarrassing to explain to you, but hr was more concerned about our fireworks, than firearms

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Tue May 31, 2011 10:35 pm

TomServo wrote:
capjbadger wrote:
TomServo wrote:Thank you MDF!!! heres a good one.... was at 4th of juplaya, Had all the AK's, M-16s, sawed offs, etc,out... A BLM ranger rolled up on us...took one look at the guns, and asked for our fireworks permit.
Maybe i missed something... WTF does a fireworks permit have to do with firearms??

-Badger
ask him
this is a little embarrassing to explain to you, but hr was more concerned about our fireworks, than firearms

Oh! I though you meant he asked for a fireworks permit them took your guns. lol

-Badger

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:27 am

Its Nevada...guns, prostitution,gambling....fine! Just don't set our playa on fire!

Foxfur · Post by **Foxfur** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:52 am

TomServo wrote:Its Nevada...guns, prostitution,gambling....fine! Just don't set our playa on fire!

Not Fair.
The gov't can shoot a show with their high yield, double break, fission-fusion Class B display shells and I can't fire up a festival ball?
Sounds normal to me.

What was involved in the process of getting the permit?
I'm thinking of going to fourth o juplaya next year
as long as I can can still bring my guns.

Ff

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:07 am

Youd have to ask Dragon...Think I have a link to him. Guns are fine, just not on the playa. We use the dump, by the frog pond for shooting purposes. Its just off Jungo Road.

my son and I

my babies