Wheeled vehicle construction (cont from tracked thread)

karine · Post by **karine** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:38 pm

What about building one of these???

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:52 pm

Looks perfect for the Earth Guardians.

Elliot · Post by **Elliot** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:46 pm

Piece of cake. Remove the curved section to make room for pedals. Weld in suitable section from bicycle. Replace casters with axles from dead lawn tractor, but use smaller wheels. Ride. (Then get arrested for stealing shopping cart.)

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:00 pm

Another pic of the big bad land yacht with the dualiedualies:

from
http://www.gabekphoto.com/portfolio/bm/1998.htm

The org won't let you put a sail on anything this big at Burning Man anymore, btw.

Elliot · Post by **Elliot** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:29 pm

Let's see. A large object with a spear on the front, having marginal brakes and worse steering, moving at breakneck speed thru a crowd af 35000. What could possibly go wrong?

Other than that, I love it!

Gravity Mike · Post by **Gravity Mike** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:42 am

Bob wrote:
The org won't let you put a sail on anything this big at Burning Man anymore, btw.

Here's a blog describing an accident written by a guy taken away from BRC on an ambulance because of a crash of that very land yacht that year.

http://www-cdr.stanford.edu/~petrie/burn.html

Gravity

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:50 am

Cool. Complete with x-rays.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:16 pm

...so I think we can all agree not to put a big ass sail on any on the bicycle creations we make!

Gravity Mike · Post by **Gravity Mike** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:48 am

dragonfly Jafe wrote:...so I think we can all agree not to put a big ass sail on any on the bicycle creations we make!

When I first started going to BM in the early '0's, land sailers were outright banned. Now, there are limitations, not outright ban. There were a couple guys using some small 'ultrulight' landsailers out at the airport, and I think I saw one at the open playa - they are banned on 'streets' and there are other limitations on size and use. If I see it, I'll post it, just as FYI.

The statement that you can't put a sail on anything that big anymore is definately true. A smaller contraption, used in the right area, may still be permissible (which isn't the same as adviseable)!

AHA: "Certain Wind-Powered Vehicles
Wind-powered vehicles that are allowed to operate within Black Rock City must meet certain criteria. They must have a pivoting mast, must operate while the sailor is in a standing position, and must weigh no more than 50 pounds. " From: http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/playa_vehicles/

So the open playa cruiser must have been stand-up. The one I saw operating at the airport was a seated position vehicle, 'outside' of BRC.

Gravity.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:39 pm

In The Bar thread, Ranger Genius wrote:I plan to use actual bicycle components chopped up to make a trike, since a lot of what I need is prefabricated that way.

The problem I have is side-loading on regular bicycle hubs. Tends to bend the axles and break the bearings. I need something wider with a capacity to take a larger axle than the typical 10mm.

To which I replied:

As far as welding is concerned:

If you were actually making a bicycle frame that might be used to go very fast or see actually mountain/road use, then you’d need to use a high chromium/high nickle rod and TIG weld it. Bike tubing is Chromoly steel with is lighter and stronger than the equivalent mild steel. I state that for the benefit of anyone else who might come along and read this.

For your situation (and I'm assuming playa vehicle here), I’d say using a MIG would be the best bet. Stick will blow it full of holes. Use a standard ER-70S wire (the most common type sold) and you should be fine.

So we moved it to here and here’s my suggestions which I thought might help others too:

Here's a link to a pic of the design being referenced:

http://wb747623.bahnhofbredband.se/mopics/Tbolt0019.JPG

Ok... the hubs shown on this critter look like a slightly scaled down version of a standard Harley Davidson FLH hub. Notice how chunky the middle is so that it can accommodate a larger shaft. You could probably hit a motorcycle swap meet, if one happens to be close, and find a couple of complete front wheels for very affordable. Look for ugly, no chrome but still reasonably true and sound.

If you can’t find the bigger hubs, what I did for my trailer was make a frame that surrounded the entire 20" bicycle wheel... picture an oval(or rectangle for that matter) that was about 3/4" bigger than wheel all the way around. On the underside of this oval I welded two tabs with notches cut out of them to accommodate the axle and nuts... just as the front forks would. You could then weld this oval to the flange that mounts to the steering knuckle (with perhaps some small gussets) and not only would the axle be support on both sides, but you’d have a full-surround bumper for each front tire.

I'll try to post a pic for clarity ASAP.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:03 pm

They're clearly not regular bicycle hubs, but I'm not sure I want the weight of motorcycle hubs. Can one find them as small as these seem?

Does anyone have experience with using stub axles and/or modifying hubs for stub axle use? I do know I'll need to beef up the axle diameter for anything that was intended for a twin-support HPV to at least a 12mm hardened axle to support the extra weight. I suppose a smaller motorcycle hub would already be set up for this. I've also heard elusive implications that wheelchair wheels fit the requirements.

Anyone have experience with this? I'm building a recumbent tadpole trike like the one LCN linked to in the last post.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:35 pm

well I've heard this trick has been done: take the axle and ball bearings out of a bike hub and put a pair of sealed bearings on each side that will just squeeze into where the dust cap seats and have an inside opening for the largest axle that will go through the hub hole...usually a lot larger than a standard bike axle.

or maybe find an adult trike and use it for parts? I see them in thrift shops here once in a while, the $200 ones are always around on ebay like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-3-WHEEL-A ... dZViewItem

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:45 pm

One: I live in Utah. Find a trike in a thrift store here. I dare ya.

two: A $200 trike would double the cost of my project, even if you count Larry's welder, which wasn't technically my expense.

Know anything about using wheelchair hubs?

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:17 pm

http://www.gaerlan.com/bikeparts/parts/hubs/hubs.html

(The wheelchair hub above is down the page on the left)

Yes the standard wheelchair hub uses a 1/2" axle, can be purchased seperately (like the photo) and laced into a standard bike wheel or purchased as a complete wheel (but that will cost more than the trike for a set and ha, I've never seen a wheelchair in a thrift store here...go figure...)

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:48 pm

That's more like it! Great find, Tiahaar! The ones I've seen that were designed for this application were $200 a pair. I've got a local bike shop that can lace them into a 20 or 18" wheel cheap.

The Sachs VT5000 on that page has been mentioned in a few places, too. I think if I put disc brakes on the back I should be okay, though, so I don't think I need to spend $70 a piece on them.

AntiM has a wheelchair, but I couldn't ask her to part with it. I may be able to find just the wheels (I see a few on Ebay, but they don't have spoked hubs.

I read up about replacing bike bearings with sealed cartridge bearings, but the things I found said that the cantilevered force put on the front tires of a trike just tear the shit out of those cartidge bearings, and that the cup-and-cone design worked better in these situations. I also want to do as little machining as possible. I think wheelchair hubs is an idea solution.
Obviously, I'm getting really excited about this project.

Post by **AntiM** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:46 am

Oh, you can have the wheelchair ... I'll take it out in trade someway ... long, rambling phone calls on the weekends, hmmm?

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:00 am

AntiM wrote:I'll take it out in trade someway ... long, rambling phone calls on the weekends, hmmm?

Is it me, or is it getting a little warm in here??

Post by **AntiM** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:06 am

Um, no ... if you've ever had a call from larry while he's OTR and bored, you'd know!

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:14 am

Trips to a scrapyard to turn your basketball standard into kinetic art?

Post by **AntiM** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:20 am

Bingo! I've always wanted a baby Metaphor.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:50 am

Okay, so it looks like I've got my front wheels lined up. There's still a lot of work there to do, but I can get the parts now.

So someone help me with rear disc brakes. Do I have to buy a wheel or hub that has a disc braking system attached already? I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to bicycle stuff. How much should I reasonable expect to pay for that, since I'd call it pretty likely I won't find one in a thrift store?

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:16 pm

Hey Ranger Genius that sounds like a fun rig you are building! I will watch for it on-playa. I once found (and bought

) a full-on church organ in a local thrift shop...and a near lifesize bronze horse..and various bike parts too over the years but right, no disc stuff yet. That hardware is still uncommon.

But yes the hub needs to come with the six-hole plate to bolt the disc rotor onto, and the bike frame needs the two lugs to bolt the caliper unit onto. The mechanical Hayes brake is an awesome unit, I *luv* how smooth it stops. Finding a cheap frame with the disc mounts will be the hard part...maybe a mountain bike where the front-end got totaled?

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:06 pm

If I can get a look at the frame mounts, I can fabricate it, or have it fabricated. I think that's what was done on the model I'm basing my design after.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:39 am

You could just give up & do a recumbent unicycle:

HepCat1A · Post by **HepCat1A** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:56 pm

I was going to build a diamond shaped trailer with a removable tongue, using standard car wheels, axle, and differential to haul my stuff. After unloading, i would remove the tongue and add heavy duty pivoting wheels front and rear. It would be powered thru the differential using some type of motor and steered by applying the left or right emergency brake. My question is would it go in a straight line using a standard differential, or just spin in circles??

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:56 pm

HepCat1A wrote:...would it go in a straight line using a standard differential, or just spin in circles??

back on the farm I put in many hours on a mowing machine called a swather that almost worked the same way: two drive wheels on each side in front with a swivel wheel out the back and you steered by slacking the drive belts on one side or the other with two control levers. mostly worked but you were always working the levers even going straight especially over uneven ground.

your setup would keep you on your toes! all things being equal the diff would power both wheels the same to go straight, but make the brake setup smooth as a slight bump or soft spot on one side would put you into a quick turn...but at 5mph should be manageable.

HepCat1A · Post by **HepCat1A** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:50 am

Tiahaar wrote:
...your setup would keep you on your toes!

Thanx... I was thinking some difficulty in controlling it would make it more entertaining. The ability to spin in a relatively tight circle could also be fun. Of course we would be well lit (for visibility...), going slow, and have soft edges all around.

In '98 I saw a cross bearing "jesus" that traveled in a similar manner. It was quite hilarious when another tried driving it; I believe the phrase "Jesus Christ! Where in the hell ya goin!" was shouted as he careened into our tent. No harm done.

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:56 am

HepCat1A wrote:
In '98 I saw a cross bearing "jesus" that traveled in a similar manner. It was quite hilarious when another tried driving it; I believe the phrase "Jesus Christ! Where in the hell ya goin!" was shouted as he careened into our tent. No harm done.

I loved the guy on the cross.. Saw him later in the morning with a girlfriend/wife pulling him back to a camp, with him still on the cross..

only at Burning Man

Atar · Post by **Atar** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:21 pm

Hey there y'all,

I'm planning to build a trike, only for fun and honing my crap welding skills (:oops:). Sadly it can't be transported to the playa. I live in the Netherlands so thats why

Anyways. A couple weeks back I pulled one of these things out of a metal dumpster at my work:

They're dubbed skatebikes by some long-gone marketing manager, they were popular some years back and 'have now entered the waste stream' as someone so eloquently put it earlier in the thread

I rode around on it for a bit and quickly got the hang of it, but generaly it sucks to use it for anything other than fun. The frontwheels will make you take a nosedive when you come across anything the size of a box of matches. So today I was wondering what I could possibly do with the thing. It allows you to break and 'hold your legs still', what I mean is that the axle isn't fixed to the wheel.
Now, I wondered if I could turn this thing into a trike, but I hate to be unorignal so I had to come up with something unique (or at least, thought up by myself). I constructed a little trike in my head where the skatebike wheel touches the ground and the pedals point towards the sky, a seat is connected to this piece. This piece is then connected to the frame that holds the rear-wheels through a pivot-point. Using two handles or just natural balance this construction would allow you to lean into a curve and thus make your turn. This would give you an 'illusion' of speed since you'd lean more into the curve than normal.
I went looking on the dutch version of eBay for parts (mainly, the two backwheels) and found the exact thing I'd just thought up

Anyways, eventhough someone else thought of this first I'm still aiming to pound it out of the ground. Here's the example of the factory made trike:

And I found some backwheels aswell, 12 inchers, like the skatebike thingy has:

They'll cost me 10 euros, I hope they're up for the task but they look sturdy enough to my untrained eye.

Now, I have a welding machine here at home (I believe its called an arc welder), just need some electrodes, scrap metal from old bikes and a welding mask. Also a strong pivoting point would need to be found.
The seat I'll construct out of metal shaped like a seat and then drape a piece of cloth in it, hammock style.

Lastly: I'm totaly in fucking LOVE with the tires on this thing, yet I can't find them anywhere

The machine is cool too, very well crafted!

Bob wrote:Fiberglass -- masking or duct tape over the cut line first?

Re: odd geometry & fat tyres:

Elliot · Post by **Elliot** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:27 pm

.
Yes, we sit on the bank of the Waste Stream and watch what treasures come floating by!

Your plan ought to work. Tipping your "found treasure" 90 degrees rearward was the first thing I thought of -- it's a natural.

Tiny wheels are hopeless for anything other than dance floors.

For a pivot point, you can probably use the steering head of a bicycle, or even a bottom bracket (crank).

Now make it so it can be dis-assembled to fit in a suitcase.

Wheeled vehicle construction (cont from tracked thread)

differential drive, brake steering?

Re: differential drive, brake steering?