Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding the building and creation of mutant vehicles in Black Rock City
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trilobyte
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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by trilobyte » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:26 pm

I'm giving this a nudge over to the Building Mutant Vehicles board since that's a better fit...now that we have a board for building MV's. Good luck with the project!

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:00 am

Thanks Trilo!


Well, life keeps happening and so far has prevented the old bus from making it to the mechanic for its evaluation.. Hopefully I'll have some free time on Wednesday to get it towed the 20 miles into town. It runs great but I have not been able to get the brakes to fully pressurize after having the booster rebuilt and the master cylinder replaced and bleeding the lines several times, so I am bringing in the pros. The brakes must work with no issues if this thing is going to be a Mutant vehicle..

Seems like any old thing that can bear the load would work for suspension blocks then.

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Ed Banks » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:35 am

A-RockLeFrench wrote:and the master cylinder replaced
Did you bench bleed this before installing?

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:49 pm

Me? No..

I would imagine (hope) the mechanics I paid to do the install would have done that, But they fucked a couple of other things up so I'm not putting it past them...

Since I bought this bus 6 years ago, I have learned many things about myself and buses:
  • 1. Do not buy a bus without reading the long technical thread beforehand
    2. I am not a mechanic
    3. Do not try and save money by taking any vehicle to (a) the lowest bidder or (b) someone who doesn't want the job
Today I was able to get the bus towed into the local RV service center that has been around for 40 years, has a good reputation working with old buses and and one of the guys on duty said "that's a cool old bus! I like working on those!". They will be troubleshooting the brakes, pulling the wheels to check the cylinders and performing a full chassis/suspension inspection. I will hopefully be hearing from them by Tuesday or Wednesday...

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:16 pm

umm... Next Question!


Electricity and Grounding: I have heard of people hanging chains off of the undercarriage, that drag along the surface of the playaof MV's to ground the whole vehicle.

We will have 2-4KW of generator powering AC sound and lights. The truck system will power some 12v back-up lights so the vehicle is still well lit in the event of generator failure.

Can any of you geniuses out there share some insight on whether or not grounding to the earth is necessary or tips?

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Jackass » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:12 pm

I really don't think it's necessary. Everything plugged into the genny should ground right back though the wiring to its frame and or metal cover, where the power originated from...

If you're nervous about lightning, build a Faraday cage around the whole bus with dragging chains. You'll be begging to be hit by lightning then.
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:13 pm

No commercially built RVs have drag chains or ground straps. I don't think its something to worry about.
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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Popeye » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:00 pm

The playa is so dry that chains dragged across it will not conduct to ground. If it gets wet you won't be able to drive. It would be a good idea to have a good (good as in clean the paint and grease off) bolted or ground strap connection from the generator frame to the MV.
If you get hit by lightening you're dead anyway so don't worry about it.
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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by BBadger » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:44 am

Those chains/strips are for static electricity build-up. Even if it mattered on your car, your tires should dissipate that static well enough. You might see them on tankers or vehicles where it might matter.

As far as grounding, if you want to "ground" your generator, I believe you need to bond the ground to the chassis of the vehicle at a single point. The generator itself should already have ground fault circuitry built in too.
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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Elliot » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:52 pm

A school bus might be a pretty good Faraday cage right from the factory, methinks.

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by aaronrodg » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:51 am

I can only offer some experience with Bad Idea controls from the builder side. An MV that has made it to three concurrent burns is running a control system I built. A mechanical linkage was not possible due to the position and distance of the driver area from the steering area, so the first year I made a remote-actuated steering system. Steering is controlled by a gearmotor with servo feedback, over an Ethernet cable. The last two years, it has been running a system expanded to control the brakes and throttle as well, all over the same Ethernet cable. As the designer and builder of the electronics, mechanics, control interface, and software...it scares me a little. But there is keyswitch cutout, a large red cutout button labeled "OH SHIT", and a cutout that detects release of the throttle. That's all the DMV hotties can see...there's also a range of error detection methods in hardware and in firmware to kill the throttle if anything funny happens. Plus...the vehicle would be pushing it to get over 10mph anyway.

I think the moral of the story is this: weird control schemes will pass, as long as you've exhibited some basic attention to preventing the car from going on a self-guided rampage directly into the Man burn with a load of sparkleponies, and have emergency cutouts available and prominently labeled.

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:16 am

OK that's a little weird... no one was talking about relocating controls, just grounding a generator.
Which MV are you talking about?
Depending on sensitive electronics for the driving controls of an MV does indeed sound like a bad idea. I've mechanically relocated driving controls on several including the one I'll be bringing this year.
Are you just making a few random posts to make your other one with the link to those Chinese junk Westinghouse generators seem legitimate?
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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:37 am

Wait... What?

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:38 pm

Here's some more recent photos of ye old bus, with the beginnings of the frame which will support the layers of mutation.
rsz_14img_1927.jpg
rsz_img_1928.jpg
rsz_img_1929.jpg

ETA: nevermind the piles of bones...
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Last edited by A-RockLeFrench on Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:43 pm

Fortunately on the team we have a computer genius (which I am not) and he has been awesome enough to be working on 3D visualization. Here's what the frame with deck will look like when mostly complete.
bus frame 3.jpg
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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:12 am

The Application has been submitted. We await the invitation.

Once we are invited (I'm pretty sure we will be) I will be ready to share with you guys the concept for this magical beast.



Oh god I'm so excited!

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:03 pm

I was fortunate enough to get to see what he's got in store, and man I'm here to tell you, it ROCKS!!!!!
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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Ratty » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:29 am

I'm really curious now. The anticipation is the best. Keeping my fingers crossed for this long awaited project.
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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:05 pm

Image

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Wed May 04, 2016 8:55 pm

I have received a very exciting email from the folks over at BRC DMV...




Stay tuned for a very exciting announcement.

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by burner von braun » Wed May 04, 2016 10:29 pm

*pulls up chair in anticipation*

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by EGAZ » Thu May 05, 2016 11:37 am

...... :coffee: ...... ditto.....
2nd time better than the first. And the first was pretty Freakin' Great!
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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by trilobyte » Wed May 11, 2016 7:13 pm

Woohoo, A-Rock! Though I imagine you've got some busy months of building ahead, if you get some time and are so inclined post a thread in Art & Performance to announce your plans and maybe share some art and a build pic or two. I love seeing how camps, art installations, and mutant vehicle builds all progress and come together. Cheers!

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Jackass » Wed May 11, 2016 7:25 pm

Some of us are on the edges of our seats, you know. Leaning forward and whatnot...


Congrats!
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

11th Principle: Depussyfication - Keeping Burning Man potentially lethal. Token

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by EGAZ » Wed May 11, 2016 10:22 pm

Leanin' forward and what not.....

Spit my soda on that one...LOL
2nd time better than the first. And the first was pretty Freakin' Great!
I am Camp2. - A solo camp - Stop by and say Hey!, 8) Gotta beer?

If you are another Solo Burner & very 'Radically Self Reliant' - Maybe we can 'Do What We Do!' :P

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Thu May 12, 2016 6:06 pm

Here.


Sorry I kept ya'll waiting around on the edges of your seats! I have been slammed with work trying to clear my schedule for an insane summer bringing this mythical beast into creation!

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:20 am

Car Question:

Air filter. I hear people talk about all kinds of oil bath intakes and pre-filters and crap for MV's. I'm wondering if those are necessary? From my understanding a pleated paper filter does pretty much what it was designed to do. As of right now my plan is to run a paper filter and bring a couple spares to swap out mid-week if it gets clogged. Any input?

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:29 am

That will be fine. Oil bath filters (like K&N, etc.) kind of suck. They clog up fast.
I used plastic flexible ducting to feed my MV engine fresh air from a location inside where it's the least dusty.
I stuck a cheap parts store cone shaped air filter on the end of the hose.
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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by EGAZ » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:07 pm

A true oil bath filter will definitely pull the most dust out. One that forces all the air through the oil. And you might not have to do anything to it all week as the oil holds a ton of dirt. Though I agree that changing out with cheap paper filters through the week should be fine.

Lots of people dislike K&N filters. And there are many, many pro/con debates on the topic. Most of the time the people with issues don't properly care for it. You can't treat it like a normal filter. It takes proper cleaning, drying and oiling at proper intervals (depending on conditions) and they work great. And this takes time. Its the drying step that most people neglect. It's not a quick rinse, oil and slap it back in. If you try to short cut or neglect this fact they do not do what they are designed to do. If you have oil residue or 'carry over' downstream, you have too much oil on it. (or the filter is too small and the air velocity is too high, rare but happens) If the element is not completely, evenly pink to light red after oiling, you don't have enough oil. Its a fine line but can be learned if you take your time and go slow. I have over oiled in the past not paying attention. No other option but to wash & dry & oil again. I keep my vehicles forever so I buy one K&N, then when funds allow I buy another. Keep one cleaned and ready to oil. When its time to change, I oil it up, and change it out. The truck is back in business in minutes and not sitting there unusable while the filter dries. Clean the dirty filter at my leisure to get it ready for the next change out. I have them in all my vehicles and have never had an oil carry over problem, never anything dust/dirt wise downstream of the filter. Back in the mid-west we would run OuterWears on them to keep the big muddy stuff out out the elements. Which you did on any other filter back there.

All that said, on my Truck that will roll onto the playa then be parked until I leave. I plan to change to a paper filter in Fernley the night before when I stop for the night. Throw in a cheap paper filter. Drive on and off the playa and back to Fernley. Throw the K&N back in for the ride home. I'm just saving a 'possible' cleaning for the cost of a paper filter. And I want to see just how much crap gets on the filter by just driving on, sitting all week and driving off the playa. If negligible I will skip this step next year. Short of a constant dust storm waiting to enter and leave, I don't see it getting anywhere near being plugged.
2nd time better than the first. And the first was pretty Freakin' Great!
I am Camp2. - A solo camp - Stop by and say Hey!, 8) Gotta beer?

If you are another Solo Burner & very 'Radically Self Reliant' - Maybe we can 'Do What We Do!' :P

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Re: Seeking advice and input for designing MV

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:58 pm

Most of that simply doesn't apply to the subject. This is an MV on the playa, not a street vehicle.
You want a dry paper filter for that. No one is going to do all that washing and oiling and drying out there.
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