heavy duity accessible MV?

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Misti
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heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Misti » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:57 pm

With my grandmother getting up in age and my mother going through cancer treatments my boyfriend and I had a thought about people in wheelchairs, electric scooters, and with medical concerns, how often they get to see deep playa art with all the dust traps and the heat, and came up with an idea for an art car with a higher vantage point that would be able to haul several electric scooters at 500+lbs each with a lift to load and unload and possibly have it be air conditioned for people that have a hard time in the heat.

We didn't go to the playa this year so we didn't get to see for ourselves how many accessible art cars there are and are wondering if there is a need for this type of vehicle.

We are just entertaining the idea right now but might go another route if there is no demand.




Edit: I just realized that this probably should have been posted in another section :oops:

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:17 pm

Check with the Department of Mobility. Eplayan Rat Lady is the current head.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by some seeing eye » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:47 pm

Very few MV's are accessible. There is a need, and it's growing. To undertake your epic quest, you will need the advice of local to you and beyond MV builders, a relationship with DMV would be helpful and collaboration with the accessibility camp as suggested would be cool. On playa maintenance capability. What you would do the rest of the year with such a vehicle is something to think about. Given the complexity and intensity, I would skip the AC to maybe a future year. If you did your vision you would be a superhero.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Misti » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:17 am

Thanks, I sent a PM to The Rat Lady.
For cooling, instead of an air conditioner or swamp cooler we were looking into something my boyfriend will be able to experiment with soon at work called a Vortex Tube. We will see in 3-5 business days.. if it works it would be an easy set up.

"Compressed air, normally 80-100 PSIG (5.5 - 6.9 BAR), is ejected tangentially through a generator into the vortex spin chamber. At up to 1,000,000 RPM, this air stream revolves toward the hot end where some escapes through the control valve. The remaining air, still spinning, is forced back through the center of this outer vortex. The inner stream gives off kinetic energy in the form of heat to the outer stream and exits the vortex tube as cold air. The outer stream exits the opposite end as hot air."
Image

Or it could be obnoxiously loud and unusable :mrgreen:

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Canoe » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:02 am

takes energy to compress that air

Swamp cooler uses little energy. The Endless Breeze fan move a lot of air on high. 900 CFM for 2.3 to 3A, depending on who's measured it.

In addition to relief from the playa heat, a swamp cooler also provides clean dust-free fresh air, along with some moistening for relief from the dry as well. Depending on how enclosed your carrying space is, this could mean that they don't have to be able to put on goggles or breathing filters in a blow, which could open up viewing the playa to an even wider range of clients.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:34 am

I'm a fabricator of MVs (and cars in general).
If I were doing this I'd start with a wheelchair-lift equipped bus. They can be found pretty cheap ("cheap" being a relative term here).
There you have a heavy duty platform with a well engineered lift, and you can get them any size from a van-based short-bus to a huge 40-footer. Scale this thing however you wish.
I'd skip the air conditioning idea because you'd have to keep it closed up, and on the playa windows are always so dirty you can't see shit through them, which pretty much defeats the purpose here.
The vortex thing sounds like a dust nightmare on the playa and sounds like it would require more volume of compressed air than you could practically generate. It's easy to make 100 psi but not at a high volume. If you still want to try that, I'd suggest using the A/C compressor on the rig's engine. Those make quite large volumes of compressed air. Hook up a home air compressor type pressure switch to the A/C pump's drive pulley clutch to control it.

The swamp cooler is likely your best bet, as mentioned it uses little energy, provides clean moist air, and it works well in open spaces. You could build several smaller ones so each chair position had it's own cool air, and only turn on the ones you need so as to conserve water supply.

You could also simply do what I did on my MV... I've got an electric fan. Usually on an MV, if you have shade and some breeze you're fine.

Many ways could be figured out to lift the persons and their chairs up to a higher deck, but I think I'd skip that, for safety reasons as well as unnecessary complexity. Bus floor height really is good enough.

You could go as simple as a long retractible ramp with an electric winch, but I'd use two or maybe even overkill-three winches, attached to different places on the chair, so make the chances of a failure of the winch, cable, or attachment point ( thus sending someone falling backwards down the ramp) as close to zero as possible.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by gibson_ » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:27 pm

I'm interested to see how that vortex tube works out for you. They're not really meant for cooling large areas, they're more meant for cooling machine tooling (like a mill) in situations where a liquid coolant would be inappropriate.

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Misti » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Ok it sounds like there is definitely a niche to fill here.. we will stick with this idea and see where we can take it. (hopefully to the playa)
Image Image
This is what we were thinking of using, The base vehicle is rated to hold 10,000lbs in the bed and the trailer is anywhere between that and 22tons depending on the type of trailer we end up getting, preferably the type in the photo
which is insulated and wired inside for lights and power and the truck has onboard air and we can easily mount a generator. I found a picture on the net that shows the height of the vehicle and gave the guy an alter ego :). The truck bed can also be found in a box version with windows like the trailer.
We would install bigger windows and a lift gate from a large box truck or semi trailer.
Image
We are thinking it would make a good train.

With the onboard air and possibly a second compressor we think there will be enough air, the inlets will need to be filtered, and we could probably even have it blow air into a bucket cooler for moisture and more cooling or if we end up going with a swamp cooler there is room to mount it. Either way I think we could make it pretty cool in there. The vortex tube has the added option of heating if we swap which hose goes in the box.

We considered a bus but wanted to steer away from the "short bus" option and do something different, like a short train! I also thought it would make a good hippo but the BF doesn't like that one as much :lol: A train could puff smoke or flame out the stack.

Please keep throwing suggestions and ideas at me! We need to figure out a cost for this and see if it is even feasible for us.

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:19 am

First of all, you need a commercial driver's license to drive that truck and if you have one you already know all the shit I'm about to say... but if not, for the hell of it, I'll blab anyway...

The loophole for driving a bus without a CDL is getting it titled as a motorhome.

That truck can't hitch up that trailer... it's a 5th-wheel style trailer. You can either remove the truck's bed and install a hitch, or use a dolly to tow the trailer - which would work fine but you need to be well skilled to ever back up because you have two swivel points. It can be done, I've done it but it takes practice!
The law doesn't give a shit what the truck is rated for, it's all about tire size, number of axles, and distance between them.
At any rate, I doubt you'd approach any max limits!
That truck would be legal at 34,000 on the rear and up to 20,000 on the front (total weight including truck and load), depending on tire width and how far from the rear axles it is. Same for the trailer - it all depends on how many axles and how far apart they are from each other AND from the truck's axles. Sometimes the distance between the truck's rear axles and the trailer's front axles (you'd have to use a one or two axle dolly on the front of that trailer) ends up being the limiting factor.

I don't know your budget or how far you have to travel or your fabrication ability... a truck lift gate is a great idea but it could be worth considering leaving it on the truck it was on. Military trucks like those in the photo are usually very slow on the highway. However, if you just wanted one anyway, it's certainly capable of anything else other than the speed limit!
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Misti » Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:14 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:First of all, you need a commercial driver's license to drive that truck and if you have one you already know all the shit I'm about to say... but if not, for the hell of it, I'll blab anyway...

The loophole for driving a bus without a CDL is getting it titled as a motorhome.

That truck can't hitch up that trailer... it's a 5th-wheel style trailer. You can either remove the truck's bed and install a hitch, or use a dolly to tow the trailer - which would work fine but you need to be well skilled to ever back up because you have two swivel points. It can be done, I've done it but it takes practice!
The law doesn't give a shit what the truck is rated for, it's all about tire size, number of axles, and distance between them.
At any rate, I doubt you'd approach any max limits!
That truck would be legal at 34,000 on the rear and up to 20,000 on the front (total weight including truck and load), depending on tire width and how far from the rear axles it is. Same for the trailer - it all depends on how many axles and how far apart they are from each other AND from the truck's axles. Sometimes the distance between the truck's rear axles and the trailer's front axles (you'd have to use a one or two axle dolly on the front of that trailer) ends up being the limiting factor.

I don't know your budget or how far you have to travel or your fabrication ability... a truck lift gate is a great idea but it could be worth considering leaving it on the truck it was on. Military trucks like those in the photo are usually very slow on the highway. However, if you just wanted one anyway, it's certainly capable of anything else other than the speed limit!

I am glad you are thinking about stuff like this! We have checked and this vehicle does not need a CDL by GVW and axle distance and it does not have air brakes. They can be licensed as a pickup truck, it could be driven daily on the streets but they are not made for comfort.
You are probably talking about this type of dolly, but I will link it so others can see and because it is more fun to plan with photos.
Image
We were thinking depending on what trailer we can get, to either build or buy one of these ^ and use it separately or to modify the trailer maybe even by welding one solid to the trailer.

You are right about the top speed, (55 at redline) but can squeeze a little more out of it with different tires. We don't have too far to drive just in salt lake city. We can almost see the playa from here :lol:

Rat Lady mentioned that we will need tie downs and to check on flame effects with people possibly using oxygen onboard. The budget depends on if we can get some people to pitch in or not, the owner of the place my BF works for is a burner and we might see if he wants to pitch in. The BMorg doesn't give art car grants do they? You can find these fairly cheap sometimes if they are rough looking, which in this case is ok because we don't want it to look like the truck it is.

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:40 pm

Are you saying that truck's GVW is under 26,000? Hard to believe... It should be about twice that.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Misti » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:52 pm

Yep, From the wiki (We verified from other sources too.)

"Brake system is air-assisted-hydraulic six wheel drum with a driveline parking brake, although gladhands exist on the rear of the vehicle for connection to trailers with full air service and emergency brakes. Braking performance of the truck is similar to other power drum brake vehicles of this size. Each drum was designed with maximum efficiency in mind, and individual drums can dissipate up to 12 kilowatts (16 hp) of braking heat. Due to this brake system and GVWR under 26,001 pounds (11,794 kg), the big deuce can be driven without a commercial driver's license in most states. Even California does NOT require a CDL to operate an M35 on public roads because even though it has three axles and an air-assisted braking system, the maximum gross weight is still under 26,000 lb (12,000 kg), making it eligible for class C on-road driving; and because the primary braking system is hydraulic, not air."

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:01 pm

Hmm... so apparently they just grossly under-rate the thing! There's no way a three-axle truck that size is only 26000 for real. But I suppose if that's all you license it for then it falls through a loophole just like registering a bus as an RV.

Yep that's the type of dolly you'll need. You mentioned welding one to the trailer; you can't really do that. It needs to swivel at the hitch point to be able to turn.

A truck like that will certainly provide a plenty stout platform! You could have a pretty high upper deck with no stability issues. It might even make it off the playa in the rain!
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Savannah » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:13 pm

Send a PM to ePlaya user Motskyroonmatick in a few days (or weeks, if you have the patience--he's tired like everyone else here). Until recently, he had a Mutant Vehicle with a wheelchair lift and might have some good advice. An accessible MV is not something one often sees and would definitely fill a niche, absolutely.

There are currently art tours of the playa that give precedence to those in need of accessible trips, but it's much more rare to just have a standard MV that's equipped, so kudos on your mission.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:18 pm

Ygmir is very familiar with big old military truck too.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Misti » Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:19 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
It might even make it off the playa in the rain!
it could definitely make it off playa if it rained......even if it rained for a very long time :)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXXZRzAh4bg


I will pm Motskyroonmatick and Ygmir and see if I can entice them to join the thread, I would appreciate all the help I can get. Could Ygmir be one of the people I saw with one of these trucks on the playa last year? There was a few of them camped together and I was wondering how to contact someone who has had one on playa to see if they had any tips I am not sure how warm a reception I would get on the military vehicle forum once they find out what the truck is for.

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by ygmir » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:29 pm

speak of the devil..............

so yeah, I still have 2 of my 3 M35A2's. One I have converted to a crane truck, the other now has a civilian flatbed, though I do have the dropside bed, as well.
the hard covered rear model of the M35 is the M109 (and variants) shop van.......I'd say it'd not be as suitable as a nice Deuce with a good shade cover.
Yeah, they are vastly under rated as far as load goes..........
I'd be careful with that trailer.......as far back as it could be, you'd probably need people walking behind.
A lift would be the ideal for the M35, in that the bed is about 5' off the ground, and a ramp would be very, very long to be able to accommodate a powered wheelchair.
I happen to have arctic rear covers for them, as well as the fording kits from the video, and arctic heaters and such, too.

I'd not worry about overloading........They have a straight, non muffler exhaust, which can be loud.
in compound low, top speed is about 3mph, so, can gear down low for safety.
They are 24V, so you'd want to make allowances for accessories and such.

Air lock front end. and mine still have the infrared projectors on it.

They are coated with CARC paint, very durable, but poisonous to weld or grind and smell fumes.

No special license necessary, unless used commercially. The brakes are hydraulic, with air booster. So no air endorsement is necessary.

Compound low is about 3 mph, at revs.

Please feel free to ask questions.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Canoe » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:17 am

Misti wrote:it could definitely make it off playa if it rained...
(just in case you're serious)
no
with the playa it's the clay mud, not the water
try, and if you don't stop soon enough you'll likely be down to your axles, and then you'll need something rather big to get you out once the playa is dry
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by ygmir » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:11 am

Canoe wrote:
Misti wrote:it could definitely make it off playa if it rained...
(just in case you're serious)
no
with the playa it's the clay mud, not the water
try, and if you don't stop soon enough you'll likely be down to your axles, and then you'll need something rather big to get you out once the playa is dry
well....interestingly, it takes a fair time for the water to soak very deep. the rain initially creates a slick, sticky mud layer that almost seals what's below, about a half to one inch deep. Below that is dry and even dusty.
but, you can't "dig" through it with normal tires, as the mud builds up so fast, it covers the treads and lugs. It takes some amount of time for the water to saturate down, and in summer rain situations, evaporates before soaking very deep.
But yeah, given enough time to soak, it is bottomless....
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Canoe » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:24 am

then how the photos of 4x4s siting on their axles on the playa?
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That's one word I regret googling during breakfast.
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Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:30 pm

Canoe wrote:then how the photos of 4x4s siting on their axles on the playa?
I am confused by the lack of predicate.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Canoe » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:30 pm

My wireless keyboard acted up. It put all sorts of extra characters in. I only had the mouse with which to finish the post. I deleted what I could to have it provide the essence, then clicked on submit. Oddly, on reboot it seems fine, but my fifth monitor is dark.
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That's one word I regret googling during breakfast.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by atomicray » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:17 pm

I just bought a short bus, during BM actually lol. I was inspired by watching the event for the third year in a row and health be damned took the plunge.

I did not go looking for a handicaple vehicle, it just feel into my price range, met my needs for the art build aspect, and met my needs for a mobile camp...enough room for the wife and I plus a couple of our adult kids if they wanted to come along.

All the advice above is most welcome and most valuable!

There is something else to consider...liability.

Coming from a background with time as an OSHA inspector I can tell you, just as any number of others will, that any special purpose appliance is made to meet certain criteria. Point being the lift gate. Although we all, well many of us, have ridden one up and down, they are clearly marked and intended for no riders of any kind.

If they are there will be factory rails, insert holes, and chains to ensure no unintended loss of footing and or position.

Your first and IMO only option should be a vehicle with stock wheelchair access equipment installed.

Like my short bus with the wheelchair lift.

Got mine for $6,000...it is in quite good shape with fully certified lift, nearly new tires, and engine/tran in state mandated order.

If you had a bus that had the lift, then that solves your getting them on...I would have a rated ramp ready to drop in, if your power or lift goes out, so they can get back off.

But aside from all of this I had a thought that may save you lots and lots of grief...a train.

Small wheelchair accessible cars with mini ramps, just high enough. With exaggerated overhead covers, solar fans, maybe a mister or two.

This way you limit the height of the lift/ramp, provide cover and transport, and it would be cute as hell toot toot!

It is my nature to over think things and even think the worst, but another thought was if you set up an ACed transport you will be hard pressed to keep capable people off the tram...taking up the handicap space with their fully capable selves...just saying...

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:26 pm

That was kinda' my thought about starting with a wheelchair lift equipped bus... safety and liability.
But then, I've thrown drunk assholes from the roof of my Yacht... I fucking told them NOT to go up there!
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Misti » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:47 pm

I REALLY want to avoid the bus... Its burning man... if I were in a wheelchair and had to ride buses in default life and then went to the playa and again had to ride a bus while all the other people were riding fun art cars and climbing things to see from a better view I wouldn't feel very included.. I want this art car to be something that doesn't scream utility, and I want the people that have the option to ride other art cars to want to ride this one too and give the people that need it a chance to see from a higher view.

Since the lift will only be operated by us we would tell participants they are welcome to ride if we have room after the chairs are in. We would be working with the accessibility camp we would pick them up first so for the most part there shouldn't be a problem, we could also ask if someone able to ride another car would step out if there was another chair that showed up for a ride. The controls will have a kill switch to the power so it cannot be operated without us. We will do what we feel is needed to keep people safe within reason, but I am not going for ADA compliant for an art car.

We are already figuring out an emergency plan if the lift stops working, bringing extra parts and having a secondary route but nothing is set yet.

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Savannah » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:50 pm

I want this art car to be something that doesn't scream utility, and I want the people that have the option to ride other art cars to want to ride this one too and give the people that need it a chance to see from a higher view.
I think that's key, and I'm so glad you're doing this.
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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Jackass » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:51 pm

What would you do for when it's time to go potty?
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Misti » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:28 pm

Savannah wrote:
I want this art car to be something that doesn't scream utility, and I want the people that have the option to ride other art cars to want to ride this one too and give the people that need it a chance to see from a higher view.
I think that's key, and I'm so glad you're doing this.
I am really glad someone agrees with me, Thank you!


Jackass wrote:What would you do for when it's time to go potty?
Well, in a case like that Id say we would stop at the potties

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by atomicray » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:43 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:That was kinda' my thought about starting with a wheelchair lift equipped bus... safety and liability.
But then, I've thrown drunk assholes from the roof of my Yacht... I fucking told them NOT to go up there!
Ah yes...the idea of chucking some drunk hippie off the art truck/boat just fills me with happy...this...this is a refreshing thought.

Most posts strike me as a little too much Eskimo kisses, hugs, and rainbows...sometimes an asshole needs to be thrown off the mutant vehicle.

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Re: heavy duity accessible MV?

Post by Elderberry » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm

Misti wrote:
Savannah wrote:
I want this art car to be something that doesn't scream utility, and I want the people that have the option to ride other art cars to want to ride this one too and give the people that need it a chance to see from a higher view.
I think that's key, and I'm so glad you're doing this.
I am really glad someone agrees with me, Thank you!
She's not the only one. I remember seeing a guy on a wheel chair wheeling around out the playa. It wasn't a power chair and it was hot and looked like he was really giving it all he could to get where he was going. I was really in awe of his determination. What you are doing is going to be a huge and welcome addition to Burning Man.
JK
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http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

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