Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

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Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by sparr » Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:47 pm

I accidentally derailed another thread here: viewtopic.php?f=464&t=76889&start=60#p1105804

I am hoping those people will follow me to this purposeful thread and un-derail the other thread.

The basic premise is that the language used to describe vehicle passes this year allow for motorcycles and towed vehicles to enter without a vehicle pass. Much discussion is brewing about strategies to use this rule to our advantage.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by ygmir » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:23 pm

has anyone seen Gyre? just sayin.

but yeah, interesting concept. I'd just really caution you, playing semantics and technicalities, does not always work at gate. They are pretty perceptive, and if they find you, or consider you to be, cheating, it may not end well.

just sayin, make sure you know what you are doing.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:23 pm

Did anyone else click in at noon and get bumped out, while your friends who clicked in at 12:06 get right in and buy tickets?
I think something is messed up about the waiting room.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by MrBeardy » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:36 pm

You could tow your car in, or you could find a low income ticket holder and give them a ride in and not have to hassle with any of that since they get a ticket with their pass....

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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by ygmir » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:24 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Did anyone else click in at noon and get bumped out, while your friends who clicked in at 12:06 get right in and buy tickets?
I think something is messed up about the waiting room.
I tried to click in, but could not get wifi because I was loading a friends truck on a flatbed trailer. Seems if you are in a truck, on a trailer, you can't get wifi.
very interesting indeed.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by trilobyte » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:38 am

I suppose you're welcome to roll the dice and play the jackass card on the finer points of the terms and conditions. Keep in mind, of course, that if the gate staff doesn't share your interpretive vision they would then turn the entire vehicle (ie... you) around and send you back out. You would probably also want to make sure that any tow method you employed would be considered safe and street legal by the Nevada department of transportation, since you'll likely be passing by several LEO's along the way on the 447.

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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by zorro sings » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:02 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:Did anyone else click in at noon and get bumped out, while your friends who clicked in at 12:06 get right in and buy tickets?
I think something is messed up about the waiting room.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by GreyCoyote » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:11 am

Only pedantic dipshits try to weasle their way past Gate by towing a vehicle and then arguing semantics while slowing down everyone else behind them.

All of the illuminati use a hovercraft, and they come in via the airport without the nuisance of the entry line. No vehicle pass is required as the feds deem it an aircraft. Never touches the ground. And it makes for one big mofo of a dust cloud too. So it gets a "10" on the "pisses off the neighbors" scale.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Sham » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:53 am

I have an idea: why not string 6 cars together with chains and just have the first one pulling the rest. That would cost each car just $13 to get through the gate. We could call them "trailer cars".

So here's the real deal: if you have a true, REGISTERED artcar or mutant vehicle being towed, you do not need a Vehicle Pass. You will need papers from the DMV to prove this. I had my artcar in tow a few years back, and really (really, really) wanted to drive it though the gate after traveling thousands of miles from the east coast to get there. It would have required a second VP to get through the gate.

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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Meat Hunter » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:34 am

After parking your hovercraft at the airport -- be prepared. There is a $40.00 cash "per person" one-time entry fee to enter through the airport gate.

When you pay your airport entry fee, you will be given a special airport wrist band that will allow you to travel back and forth through the gate to your hovercraft. There is no hovercraft landing fee - just the one-time PP entry fee.

Since you will be the pilot in command, you select your parking place. You will be met by an Interceptor person (clothing optional) who will ask you for your pre-completed passenger manifest sheet (obtainable via the 88NV website before you depart from your home base).

If you intend to gift any rides or move your hovercraft during the event, you will need to attend a pilots briefing (no charge for the briefing and again -- clothing optional).

All true. No joke. No rumor. Absolutely factual.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by sparr » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:21 pm

trilobyte wrote:You would probably also want to make sure that any tow method you employed would be considered safe and street legal by the Nevada department of transportation, since you'll likely be passing by several LEO's along the way on the 447.
I envision the tow hookup happening on gate road.
Sham wrote:I have an idea: why not string 6 cars together with chains and just have the first one pulling the rest. That would cost each car just $13 to get through the gate. We could call them "trailer cars".
I don't think towing with chains is legal in Nevada. I'd have to check.
Sham wrote:So here's the real deal: if you have a true, REGISTERED artcar or mutant vehicle being towed, you do not need a Vehicle Pass. You will need papers from the DMV to prove this. I had my artcar in tow a few years back, and really (really, really) wanted to drive it though the gate after traveling thousands of miles from the east coast to get there. It would have required a second VP to get through the gate.
You're certainly right about that last part, but I don't see how that leads to the conclusion you've reached here.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Bless » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:35 pm

Why stop at a tow dolly?

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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Sham » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:38 pm

I didn't reach any conclusion there, I am just telling you how it is. You make your own plans and reach your own conclusion.
If you are towing a car, you'd better have a valid letter from the DMV that it's registered to drive on the playa during the event. If you don't, you WILL need another vehicle pass. If it happens to be some sort of modified pick-up truck bed on a trailer frame, then you will be ok.

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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Dr Helix » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:30 pm

I will ask the question again. Did ANYONE not go to Burning Man last year because they FAILED to get a VP? This conversation is ridiculous. Trying to back door or put one over on gate by using some sort of technicality in language is borderline cheating. You might as well go even lower and figure out how to smuggle people in. Oh and by the way. All this talk about towing in cars is now front and center with Gate. PLEASE please, someone try it. I want to hear about the hilarity that ensues when all the people in the car are turned away.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:39 pm

It's just hypothetical.
Part of the reason I brought this all up was to put it front and center to the people who wrote the rules, pointing out a big loophole they left. If they don't amend the way they wrote it, there's nothing cheating about it.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by BBadger » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:43 pm

Sham wrote:So here's the real deal: if you have a true, REGISTERED artcar or mutant vehicle being towed, you do not need a Vehicle Pass. You will need papers from the DMV to prove this. I had my artcar in tow a few years back, and really (really, really) wanted to drive it though the gate after traveling thousands of miles from the east coast to get there. It would have required a second VP to get through the gate.
I actually do wish the ORG would write up an explicit policy document on the subject rather than having the "real deal" be posted by a moderator on the eplaya-is-not-the-playa-or-the-official-mouthpiece-of-the-BORG Burning Man forum. The policy documents (if you could call them that) available on the BMOrg site do not reflect the statements made above.

The Vehicle Protocols cited by Eric in this thread only cover which vehicles can be driven or allowed into BRC. There is no mention of VPs at all in that document, and the document itself probably predates VPs in general.

The Vehicle Pass FAQ is also ambiguous when it comes to the subject. For example, this answer page states that "In 2016 every vehicle entering Black Rock City will be required to have a Vehicle Pass. Motorcycles are exempt from the Vehicle Pass requirement." However, this page states "Every motor vehicle driving into the event must have a Vehicle Pass. Motorcycles are exempt from this requirement. Trailers being towed behind vehicles do not need a separate Vehicle Pass" (emphasis mine).

A vehicle being towed or trailered into the event is not driving into the event. This distinction is specifically drawn in the Burning Man Journal post (linked from the Ticketing page), where Mutant Vehicles driven into the event require VPs, where as towed or trailered MVs do not ("If you are bringing your Mutant Vehicle in on a trailer, you do not need to have a Vehicle Pass for it. If you are driving it in, you need a Pass. Each stand-alone vehicle that drives through the gate must have a Vehicle Pass."). In addition, "Q. Does a tow-behind trailer count as a vehicle for a Vehicle Pass? A. No. Just your primary driving vehicle." That blog post is over two years old, but no concrete documents have superseded it.

I would also not chalk this up to some pedantic burner getting his or her jollies over discussing minutiae and semantics. This subject has come up multiple times (e.g., #1, #2, #3). Normally, I'd just suggest "just buy a vehicle pass [you damn cheapskate]," as was the case with Captain Goddammit in the previous incarnation of this thread. However, vehicle passes are a scarce commodity and I really could imagine a situation where some desperate group of burners have tickets and want to enter the event but haven't been able to scrounge up a VP, and consolidating the camping needs of multiple people into fewer cars may not be possible. Towing a vehicle in satisfies the requirements as they are stated and requiring the gate to make a spot judgement about ambiguous policy is only asking for trouble.

Furthermore, if the gate is going to verify whether trailered and transported MVs have documents in order to avoid a VP requirement, this also needs to be stated. Nowhere is it stated or implied that MVs need their documents with the MVs being transported through the gate if the MV is not operational. They may be in the possession of someone else or simply not available at the time, and such documents have traditionally been needed only for MVs operating on the playa itself. A visual verification may not suffice either; MVs may not be in their mutated state while entering the event (such as my friend's).
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Sham » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:36 pm

The Q&A's seem to cover all the details about bringing cars, artcars, mutant vehicles, trailers, RV's etc., into the event. If there are any questions about the policies or details, it would be wise to contact the DMV directly. For me this is grindingly clear.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:32 pm

Nowhere does it say trailered vehicles have to be MVs or Staff. It only says "trailered vehicles do not need a vehicle pass".
How is it grindingly clear that a vehicle that rides in on a trailer does need a VP, when the Org clearly says they do not?

At any rate, if anyone wants to discuss this loophole with the Org, I'm not sure exactly which dept. to contact but it's definitely not a DMV issue.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by GreyCoyote » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:27 pm

I just want to point out that while its illegal to enter BRC via the air unless you first go through the airport, Federal Aviation Regulations allow any aircraft in distress to land anywhere that, in the pilots sole opinion, presents a potentially viable landing opportunity given the condition of the craft and the circumstances aloft. This rule was modeled after 800 years of maritime law that allows any vessel in distress to enter any port of opportunity without need of writ or color of law.

My takeaway from this logic is grindingly clear: just crash-land a 747 out in the deep playa, quickly unload all of your gear, flag-down a passing art car, pay them to haul your gear to your camp, and then torch the remains of your aircraft. Done! Call it "performance art" for double word score and complain loudly when you are accused of cheating.

Or you could simply buy a vehicle pass and pretend for a few hours you are not a complete asshole who always feels the need to be special, argumentative, and entitled and just do it the way everyone else does. Naw....
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by GreyCoyote » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:35 pm

I could also point-out that an 1866 federal law allows a railroad to pre-emptively sieze and hold any public land for a throughfare, siding, roundabout or yard subject only to the requirement that a hearing within 90 days be had to show cause for this seizure of lands.

So we could do a siding off the spur that runs into Gerlach! Yes! This!!!!

Not.

(Remind me to shoot myself for even suggesting this, but absurdity of logic seems to be the nee "thing".)
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Meat Hunter » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:20 pm

What GC said at 7:27 pm, paragraph 3 -- But, in spades......
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by sparr » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:51 pm

Bless wrote:Why stop at a tow dolly?
A full size car carrier like that would be hard to come by, but I was seriously thinking about those long arched-bed trailers that carry 3-4 cars and can be pulled by a pickup truck with a fifth wheel. https://cdn2.equipmenttraderonline.com/ ... 2aadf6.jpg
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Sham » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:24 pm

I would think it substantially cheaper to buy a few $80 VP's to bring cars in. Are you setting up a used car lot of some sort? Do you know anyone who might be able to drive some of these cars into the event?

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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:58 pm

Of course it's easier and better to get a VP.
It'd take all day to go out and haul someone back in through the gate. It would suck.
I'm not sure everyone gets that... I'm not gonna do it, I'm not suggesting anyone else do it, and most likely no one is gonna do it.
The whole point is pondering that you could, the way they wrote the rules.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by BBadger » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:35 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:Or you could simply buy a vehicle pass and pretend for a few hours you are not a complete asshole who always feels the need to be special, argumentative, and entitled and just do it the way everyone else does. Naw....
Yeah, but you're thinking in 2014 terms, with less VP scarcity. It's not saving $80 for a car, for some it's getting a pass at all. This is also an event people were squatting out in Gerlach and Empire because they couldn't find a ticket and thought they could manifest one within half a mile of the gate.

So you get some people from different geographic locations, only one of whom have a vehicle pass. They can't consolidate down into fewer vehicles, because they've brought camping arrangements for multiple people. So they meet up in Reno, or even Gerlach, and one of them has rented a towing trailer or dolly they rented for $200 or something for the week. That's, what, 2x the cost of a VP that can't be obtained? Not a terrible price.

They arrive at the gate, and the gate folk give the driver a puzzled look:

"What the fuck? What's with the car dude?"

"We're just towing a vehicle to the event. We're not driving it."

"Is it an MV? It looks like a regular car on a trailer with camping shit in it. Why didn't you just rent a real trailer and move all your shit into that?"

"Well we didn't have time, or the straps, to repack everything and we didn't want to leave our car in Reno for a week with all those BBQ rib junkies roaming about. We have all our regular tickets, and would've bought another VP if we found one to buy. The site said we could bring towed vehicles in without needing a VP."

"Er, that was probably for MVs. We didn't expect something like this. Dammit, I guess let me call in and find out what the deal is with this..."
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Simon of the Playa » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:58 am

im so glad the illuminati let me back into the clubhouse.


i'm totally buying a gyrocopter because of this thread.


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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by JohnEBGud » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:46 am

When it comes to rules, regulations, and laws, the concepts of spirit and intent are in play, not just the words on the page. Seems to me that towing in a vehicle, other than one explicitly exempted, is not in keeping with the intent of requiring VP's. Of course, there are those, like followers of fundamental religions, for whom there is no interpretation but a literal one. Reality, though, is never so black and white.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by ygmir » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:49 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:im so glad the illuminati let me back into the clubhouse.


i'm totally buying a gyrocopterGyrecopter because of this thread.


fuck yer day, suckers.
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:52 am

JohnEBGud wrote:When it comes to rules, regulations, and laws, the concepts of spirit and intent are in play, not just the words on the page. Seems to me that towing in a vehicle, other than one explicitly exempted, is not in keeping with the intent of requiring VP's. Of course, there are those, like followers of fundamental religions, for whom there is no interpretation but a literal one. Reality, though, is never so black and white.
So my question for you is: let's say I had a friend who was going to go some other direction after the event, but to save fuel I put his car/truck/whatever on my trailer and we "carpooled" to BM from Seattle. He wouldn't need a VP.
Is that OK?

(Again, I'm not doing it, I'm just asking where the "anti" people draw the line on their interpretation of the rules)
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Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Sham » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:33 pm

We had that exact scenario at our camp last year. One of my camp mates had a very ornate artcar that was for display only--there was no intention of registering with the DMV or driving it on the playa during the event. This artcar that was on a trailer and required a vehicle pass. He contacted the DMV with his unique situation and got an official acceptance letter (that a registered MV would have) to get it through the gate without a VP. While he still was not allowed (or desired) to drive it on the playa, without this special consideration from the DMV, he would have absolutely needed a VP to get this car in the event.

There are unusual circumstances that may need to be addressed on a case-by-case basis, but if you have a standard car being towed, I know from experience that it WILL need a VP.

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