Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Want to talk about tickets? You've come to the right place.
asr9754
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:58 pm

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by asr9754 » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:50 pm

.

User avatar
BBadger
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 am
Burning Since: 2010
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by BBadger » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:09 pm

JohnEBGud wrote:When it comes to rules, regulations, and laws, the concepts of spirit and intent are in play, not just the words on the page. Seems to me that towing in a vehicle, other than one explicitly exempted, is not in keeping with the intent of requiring VP's. Of course, there are those, like followers of fundamental religions, for whom there is no interpretation but a literal one. Reality, though, is never so black and white.
We establish rules, regulations, and laws to ensure that judgements are not passed arbitrarily. The interpretation of "intent" and "spirit" should be left to a higher authority, not those on the ground-level unless the effects are limited or of little consequence.

This is especially important for systems servicing many people and involving valuable commodities such as tickets. Such arbitration at the ground-level can be time-intensive, stressful, and beyond the authority of workers at that level. Rules and regulations streamline the decision making process and remove variability in outcomes. Establishing clear guidelines also reinforces the position of ground-level arbitrators, especially when conflicts arise, so that people do not attempt to appeal to the empathy of the case-handler.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.

User avatar
BBadger
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 am
Burning Since: 2010
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by BBadger » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:33 pm

Sham wrote:There are unusual circumstances that may need to be addressed on a case-by-case basis, but if you have a standard car being towed, I know from experience that it WILL need a VP.
The fact that someone took the extra steps to receive special permission for such a car doesn't mean it had any real effect, only that if a problem arised that there would be sufficient documentation to prove compliance. I can't help but think that even if he showed up at the gate with that car on a trailer that he'd still be allowed in especially given that the vehicle looked like an art car, even if it wasn't intended for use as an MV.

Does the gate even check for MV "papers" for vehicles (trailered or otherwise) at the gate? I don't know as I don't bring an MV to BM. Can anyone comment? I know that registration is done online, but does that translate to anything checked at the gate?

It's a weird grey area because, traditionally, MV registration was not used to deny entry for vehicles at the gate. Rather, it simply entitled you to apply for final inspection and licensing on-playa.

If MVs are the only class of vehicles that can be trailered into BM without VPs or specific exceptions, that should be the stated rule. It would completely avoid any ambiguity.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.

User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
Posts: 19969
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:23 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art
Location: Wild, Wild West
Contact:

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by AntiM » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:10 pm

Yes, you now need a DMV invitation for your MV at the Gate.

User avatar
Dr Helix
Posts: 994
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:38 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Interaction Cafe
Location: Hayward, CA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Dr Helix » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:20 pm

I have hauled MV's into Burning man since 2008, and I have to bring the acceptance letter with me or else it will be denied entry. I usually will have three letters as backups scattered in the truck MV and trailer so I won't forget.
"Love, Rockets and write when you get work"

User avatar
BBadger
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 am
Burning Since: 2010
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by BBadger » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:27 pm

Then that settles whether a vehicle can be verified as a MV.

If MVs are the only road-worthy vehicles allowed to be trailered in without VPs (or exceptions), the FAQ should just state that. Simple check, no ambiguity.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.

User avatar
mudpuppy000
Posts: 1552
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:54 pm
Burning Since: 2009
Camp Name: THE BELLIGERENT GAP
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by mudpuppy000 » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:52 pm

IIRC mutant vehicles without invitations get put into D-lot for the event, not sent back to reno or wherever. Another possible loophole.

User avatar
Sham
Moderator
Posts: 8214
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:10 am
Location: The hidden mythical place.....

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Sham » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:59 pm

BBadger wrote:Then that settles whether a vehicle can be verified as a MV.

If MVs are the only road-worthy vehicles allowed to be trailered in without VPs (or exceptions), the FAQ should just state that. Simple check, no ambiguity.
Yes, you absolutely need a letter from the DMV to bring either an MV or an artcar. If you are driving an artcar as your daily driver, you can drive it in with a VP on your window.

If the OP needs every detail and scenario spelled out in detail, then he should contact the org and have them modify all the information to satisfy his issues. Any attempt to twist or interpret the rules to fit his desires will end with the extra vehicle (and most likely the tow vehicle) being ushered into D Lot. The gate staff who are working in hot and dusty conditions will not have the patience to play pat-a-cake with him or anyone playing semantic games.

User avatar
Sham
Moderator
Posts: 8214
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:10 am
Location: The hidden mythical place.....

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Sham » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:02 pm

Sham wrote:
BBadger wrote:Then that settles whether a vehicle can be verified as a MV.

If MVs are the only road-worthy vehicles allowed to be trailered in without VPs (or exceptions), the FAQ should just state that. Simple check, no ambiguity.
Yes, you absolutely need a letter from the DMV to bring either an MV or an artcar. If you are driving an artcar as your daily driver, you can drive it in with a VP on your window.

If the OP needs every detail and scenario spelled out in painful detail, then he should contact the org and have them modify all the information to satisfy his issues. Any attempt to twist or interpret the rules to fit his desires will end with the extra vehicle (and most likely the tow vehicle) being ushered into D Lot. The gate staff who are working in hot and dusty conditions will not have the patience to play pat-a-cake with him or anyone playing semantic games.

User avatar
BBadger
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 am
Burning Since: 2010
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by BBadger » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:11 pm

Sham wrote:Yes, you absolutely need a letter from the DMV to bring either an MV or an artcar.
I think that covers it then. All good here.

I also mailed ticketing about the questions to put this to rest, but no response yet.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.

User avatar
JohnEBGud
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:46 pm
Burning Since: 2014
Camp Name: Play-a Piano
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by JohnEBGud » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:29 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
JohnEBGud wrote:When it comes to rules, regulations, and laws, the concepts of spirit and intent are in play, not just the words on the page. Seems to me that towing in a vehicle, other than one explicitly exempted, is not in keeping with the intent of requiring VP's. Of course, there are those, like followers of fundamental religions, for whom there is no interpretation but a literal one. Reality, though, is never so black and white.
So my question for you is: let's say I had a friend who was going to go some other direction after the event, but to save fuel I put his car/truck/whatever on my trailer and we "carpooled" to BM from Seattle. He wouldn't need a VP.
Is that OK?

(Again, I'm not doing it, I'm just asking where the "anti" people draw the line on their interpretation of the rules)
I would say no. The intent of VPs are to limit the number vehicles on the road to and from the Playa and on the Playa itself. Although you claim the intent is save fuel, that and a thousand other special case excuses could be used to mask the actual intent of circumventing having a vehicle pass. How much fuel do you have to save to qualify for an exemption? What if you "carpooled" from Fernley instead of Seattle? It gets complicated fast.

So, from a purely practical standpoint, it's simpler to assume that the intent is to require a vehicle pass for vehicles that are not explicitly exempted, as I said originally.

But don't group me with anti people. I don't really give a shit. We're just talking hypotheticals here. Like you, though, I would never do it.
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.
--Wm. Blake

User avatar
tamarakay
Posts: 3115
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:27 pm
Burning Since: 2011
Camp Name: Dye with Dignity
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by tamarakay » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:30 pm

You guys sure know how to suck all the joy out of things.
When the only tool you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a hippie.

Mmmmmm I love the smell of Burning Man - Token

Getting overly dramatic about the ticket sale process is so 2012. - Maladroit


http://www.dyewithdignity.com

User avatar
Captain Goddammit
Posts: 8225
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am
Burning Since: 2000
Camp Name: First Camp
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:26 pm

We're just having a nice civil discussion about exactly what the topic of this thread indicates.
You could simply skip threads you don't find interesting and read the ones you like. Or use plonk. it works great.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

User avatar
tamarakay
Posts: 3115
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:27 pm
Burning Since: 2011
Camp Name: Dye with Dignity
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by tamarakay » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:28 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:We're just having a nice civil discussion about exactly what the topic of this thread indicates.
You could simply skip threads you don't find interesting and read the ones you like. Or use plonk. it works great.
Awesome! I will remind you of that when you opine in threads. 8)
When the only tool you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a hippie.

Mmmmmm I love the smell of Burning Man - Token

Getting overly dramatic about the ticket sale process is so 2012. - Maladroit


http://www.dyewithdignity.com

User avatar
Captain Goddammit
Posts: 8225
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am
Burning Since: 2000
Camp Name: First Camp
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:37 pm

Well I wouldn't find any joy in that, so...
Captain Goddammit wrote:use plonk. it works great.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

User avatar
BBadger
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 am
Burning Since: 2010
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by BBadger » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:41 pm

JohnEBGud wrote:I would say no. The intent of VPs are to limit the number vehicles on the road to and from the Playa and on the Playa itself. Although you claim the intent is save fuel, that and a thousand other special case excuses could be used to mask the actual intent of circumventing having a vehicle pass. How much fuel do you have to save to qualify for an exemption? What if you "carpooled" from Fernley instead of Seattle? It gets complicated fast.
If a vehicle "unit" can consist of a car + trailer (with whatever is on it), wouldn't we still be satisfying the "intent" of the VP to encourage carpooling even with a towed vehicle?

Right? it's still carpooling. The occupants of both vehicles are still in the primary vehicle, and the cargo is being towed. The only difference here is that the "trailer" is instead another vehicle and that someone paid a great deal more for the car trailer rental than a VP costs. Despite outward appearances, it's really no different than the towing vehicle transporting an equivalent regular trailer full of junk. Even the amount of effort to fit everyone into a primary vehicle and tow the secondary is roughly equivalent.

Does it reduce traffic? Sure it does -- well, at least for the roads leading from Reno or Fernley or wherever the trailer is towed from. That's all that matters too. The VPs are not supposed to save the world from excess traffic, only the immediate area surrounding the event. If traffic volume is counted in terms of these vehicle units, the traffic reduction quotas are also being satisfied.

The only place where it may matter is Exodus, but that's not a big problem either. Everyone is "parked" in the exodus lanes anyway while filing out. It's not like those extra cars require extra checks or other attention. Plus, the peak volume of cars will be roughly the same regardless of how many vehicle passes.

Does it make a difference to the highway damage? Not at all. Only really heavy vehicles make much difference to highway damage, not the kind of vehicle that would fit on a car trailer. Anyway, in that area, most damage to those roads is caused by natural causes.

I say if someone spent $250 on a vehicle trailer and the effort to haul some other car into the playa because they couldn't find a $80 vehicle pass by all means let them do it. I doubt it was any person's first choice. A pretty lame "loophole" if I say so myself.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.

User avatar
Captain Goddammit
Posts: 8225
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am
Burning Since: 2000
Camp Name: First Camp
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:01 pm

I think if someone trailered a friend's vehicle in, it wouldn't at all break the intent or spirit of the rules. Just like BBadger said, it's carpooling. Exactly what the VP program wants to encourage.
The VP thing reminds me of a weird issue at work years ago. The Seattle ferry dock was in bad shape, undergoing repairs. They imposed a 60,000 pound weight limit.
We were taking large amounts of stone to a job, using boom trucks with trailers, totaling 105,000 pounds. They wouldn't allow it.
So we used two trucks, one right in front of the other, each weighing 60,000.
Now, we had 120,000 pounds, on the same number of tires, in the same space, and they were happy. We tried to explain how stupid this was...

Going to Burning Man, it's the same thing but in reverse. I get one VP with my tickets. I can't bring two trucks, but I can bring a truck and a trailer, and my trailer, when loaded to capacity, is heavier than most pickup trucks.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

User avatar
JohnEBGud
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:46 pm
Burning Since: 2014
Camp Name: Play-a Piano
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by JohnEBGud » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:09 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote: Going to Burning Man, it's the same thing but in reverse. I get one VP with my tickets. I can't bring two trucks, but I can bring a truck and a trailer, and my trailer, when loaded to capacity, is heavier than most pickup trucks.
Oh, I get it. We don't need VP's we need trailer passes. :evil:
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.
--Wm. Blake

User avatar
BBadger
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 am
Burning Since: 2010
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by BBadger » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:15 pm

Or do it by weight, which is the real cause of road damage, not volume of cars. Someone in the bureaucratic chain is being dishonest about supposed road repairs related to the event and its traffic, and a lot of money is being collected regardless. If VPs aren't increasing the population cap, they should be abolished altogether.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.

User avatar
Captain Goddammit
Posts: 8225
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am
Burning Since: 2000
Camp Name: First Camp
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:29 pm

Well the way I understand it, the VPs sort of effectively increase the population cap, but not in a very good way. They'd allow more people if they all piled into fewer vehicles, but that's a crummy thing for an event that preaches self reliance and bringing everything you need, plus art.
If they limit vehicles but increase ticket sales, I think we create, out of necessity, more non-self reliance and more spectators.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

maladroit
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:37 pm
Burning Since: 2012

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by maladroit » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:52 am

I think the most important point in this thread is one BBadger made earlier: if it's a "grindingly clear" fact that your towed vehicle will not get in without a VP or a DMV invitation, that should be in the rules. Not tucked away in a mod's unofficial response to a forum thread.

User avatar
FlyingMonkey
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by FlyingMonkey » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:46 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:im so glad the illuminati let me back into the clubhouse.


i'm totally buying a gyrocopter because of this thread.


fuck yer day, suckers.
Think bigger, think Steampunk. I'm leaning towards a zeppelin although Dr Zarkov's rocket would be pretty sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVsHslWQcy8
In your wildest dreams you can not imagine the marvelous SURPRISES that await YOU.

caffeineslinger
Posts: 223
Joined: Sat May 19, 2012 2:26 pm
Burning Since: 2003

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by caffeineslinger » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:57 pm

FlyingMonkey wrote:
Simon of the Playa wrote:im so glad the illuminati let me back into the clubhouse.


i'm totally buying a gyrocopter because of this thread.


fuck yer day, suckers.
Think bigger, think Steampunk. I'm leaning towards a zeppelin although Dr Zarkov's rocket would be pretty sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVsHslWQcy8
Aerial Screw
Image

User avatar
mgb327
Posts: 1036
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:20 pm
Location: Somerset, Va.

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by mgb327 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:44 pm

I had an aerial screw once, dislocated a shoulder.
Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them’s making a poop, the other one’s carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge?
" I am a controlled substance". Savannah.

User avatar
lucky420
Posts: 8329
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:47 am
Burning Since: 2021
Camp Name: Dye with Dignity
Location: Reno, NV

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by lucky420 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:43 pm

Mile high club?
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
Posts: 19969
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:23 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art
Location: Wild, Wild West
Contact:

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by AntiM » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:12 am

We were at the airport, waiting for a sightseeing ride. A young lady bounced through the smaller gate, grinning and bouncing and telling everyone "I just got laid in an airplane"! She was so excited and happy, it was really quite charming. I guess if you know a pilot and are quick about things...

mrchiff
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:45 am
Burning Since: 1999

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by mrchiff » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:17 am

I think the phrase is the "smell test". As much as one may want to play semantics arguing allowed entry, there are as many options to deny entry.

Do the scenarios presented pass the smell test? The answer to that would most likely determine the outcome.

Trying to prank the pranksters can lead to interesting results.

User avatar
mdmf007
Moderator
Posts: 5322
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:32 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: ESD
Location: my computer

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by mdmf007 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:23 pm

Gates not dumb - they know when its a scam. If you have 4 people in a rig towing another car or car on trailer - I could see it getting by. If you have a van with 14 people in it towing another van with no one in it - hmmmm?

Like others have said - it is a crappy location to play games and roll the dice on entry.

Just my 2 cents.
One of the Meanie Greenies (Figjam 2013)

User avatar
Sham
Moderator
Posts: 8214
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:10 am
Location: The hidden mythical place.....

Re: Towing vehicles without vehicle passes

Post by Sham » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:24 am

As has been said before, the offending vehicles will be asked to pull over in a side lot while they discuss the situation. The car towing and the towed vehicle may as well pitch a bunch of tents in that spot, because they will be there for days whining that "technically" you should let us all in. After a few days, they may even be offered to buy a vehicle pass to get things going. :roll:

Locked

Return to “Tickets Discussion”