Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Man?

Share and discuss articles and blog posts about Burning Man and the culture of Burning Man.
User avatar
some seeing eye
Posts: 2607
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:06 pm
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Woo
Location: The Oregon

Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Man?

Postby some seeing eye » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:09 am

Several startups plan satellite Internet at high speeds and lower cost. The names involved, Musk, Page, Zuckerberg may be familiar to burners. I wonder if Wyler, behind O3b (operating) and One Web in the article is a burner?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/ ... t-i58i2dp6

Image
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

Skuzzy61
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:26 am
Burning Since: 2016
Camp Name: Barbie Death Camp
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Skuzzy61 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:55 am

Speed has never been a real issue for satellite. Latency is.

Click on link...send click to satellite, then to ground based server, then stream data back to satellite, then back down to user. With a geo-sync satellite, that one action to start a stream has to cover about 89,000 miles. To put that in perspective, doing that on all ground based services would go around the Earth about four times.

Satellite links are also simplex connections which are stateless. Not as reliable nor as fast as a full duplex connection. This means the sending server has to wait for its acks, after exhausting its sliding window, before it can send anymore.

This could be fixed, but each time a bit error in the stream occurs, the time to correct and resend the data is pretty significant.

Are they better than nothing? Yep.
I really would like to change the world, but I do not have access to the source code!
Duct tape is like "The Force"! It has a dark and a light side, and holds the universe together!

asr9754
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:58 pm

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby asr9754 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:45 pm

Please no. Call me old timey, but I really like that Bman is disconnected (albeit somewhat) from ubiquitous internet access. It adds to the magic, uniqueness, and immediacy of the event.

User avatar
Simon of the Playa
Posts: 18146
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins
Location: Rochester, Nevada.

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:01 pm

and hence the need for camp electro magnetic pulse.





fuck your devices.
Frida Be You & Me

User avatar
lucky420
Posts: 7985
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:47 am
Burning Since: I'm not sure
Camp Name: Dye with Dignity
Location: Reno, NV

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby lucky420 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:02 pm

asr9754 wrote:Please no. Call me old timey, but I really like that Bman is disconnected (albeit somewhat) from ubiquitous internet access. It adds to the magic, uniqueness, and immediacy of the event.



yes!
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16452
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby trilobyte » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:28 pm

As has always been the case, availability and performance with that technology comes down to weather conditions. Dust storms can and regularly do degrade and disrupt communications in the area, so even with all the latest and greatest tech that money can buy it's still something of a crap shoot.

I don't hate all technology on the playa, but I'm personally comfortable with the disconnect. To me, the challenge to be taken away from Burning Man isn't how to get better internet out there, but how to find ways to take breaks from always-on connectivity and focus more on being present in the moment back in Defaultia.

User avatar
Sham
Moderator
Posts: 7944
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:10 am
Location: The hidden mythical place.....

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Sham » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:39 pm

trilobyte wrote:I don't hate all technology on the playa, but I'm personally comfortable with the disconnect. To me, the challenge to be taken away from Burning Man isn't how to get better internet out there, but how to find ways to take breaks from always-on connectivity and focus more on being present in the moment back in Defaultia.

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!
With all the trappings of home---a nice air conditioned RV (heated at night) and full internet connectivity, you can stay safely inside and watch the burn on Burning Man TV. 8)

User avatar
mudpuppy000
Posts: 1549
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:54 pm
Burning Since: 2009
Camp Name: THE BELLIGERENT GAP
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby mudpuppy000 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:26 pm

I pretty much had cell service the whole time this year. It was nice being able to check and see how things were going back home with my family, but it also was a big distraction. I felt more at ease at the san diego decompression that was completely cut off from the outside world. Of course everything got dumped on me as soon as I got back to the real world, but hey it was nice for those 4 days. :D

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14248
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Elderberry » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:44 pm

I like being connected, but I usually only connect first thing in the morning and then the last thing at night. (Assuming I'm in a suitable condition or just plain don't feel like it.) The phone doesn't leave the Yurt at all during the day.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.

Skuzzy61
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:26 am
Burning Since: 2016
Camp Name: Barbie Death Camp
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Skuzzy61 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:23 am

I'll enjoy my Wife not having her phone in her face all day long. I do not think she realizes how much she buries herself into it. I am hoping for zero Internet and phone service.

My phone is a dumb flip phone which cannot do text messaging. No Internet either. It is just a phone. I work with computers all day, everyday, will welcome the break from being enslaved by all that technology.
I really would like to change the world, but I do not have access to the source code!
Duct tape is like "The Force"! It has a dark and a light side, and holds the universe together!

User avatar
Token
Posts: 3481
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:55 pm
Burning Since: 2001
Location: Gold Country, CA

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Token » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:04 am

Sat internet is a pipe dream Scuzzy summed up perfect.

I have Sat at my ranch and 1 second latency is very common. Doesn't really slow you down when downloading big files since the modem does spoofing to make the whole TCP window a non issue, but the moment you encrypt the connection like for VPN where the whole header of the packet is encrypted ... Might as well break out the Old AOL cd and analog phone modem.

All that money should be invested into terrestrial wireless systems that can be open, secure and transparent between vendors.

Thought Google would do something like that when they bought up all that wireless spectrum when we killed analog TV, but they are slow to deploy other than pilots.

User avatar
DrYes
Posts: 515
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:22 pm
Burning Since: 2010
Location: Bay Area

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby DrYes » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:03 am

My phone goes into airplane mode the minute we hit the playa and isn't allowed to dirty itself with a signal until we leave the playa again.

User avatar
some seeing eye
Posts: 2607
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:06 pm
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Woo
Location: The Oregon

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby some seeing eye » Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:55 pm

We have had several technical discussions of Internet connectivity to the event. As far as anyone has been able to determine Gerlach's only connectivity is at the end of a microwave chain from Wadsworth. That chain is overloaded when the event turns on its channels along with the temporary cell sites set up by carriers. The overload decreases the connections available for participant and art project WiFi.

The satellite services in the article have less to significantly less latency than geosynchronous satellites. And their service could be subscribed by individual tech camps without any discussion with the BMORG. But a wealthy tech entity could also subscribe to the service and share it with BMORG and/or other camps to distribute.

The BMORG connection is essential for medical operations (especially in the past when the medical service was directly attached to a local hospital, there was on playa imaging with remote reading), BMORG logistics and probably LEO ops.

If they redistributed it, it would be a good idea to coordinate spectrum with the BMORG, which opens up Placement to veto.

Personally, I think the event is a fine place for all kinds of radio experimentation and use case experimentation which is coordinated and non-interfering. And I'm still waiting for radar air traffic control :D
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

Skuzzy61
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:26 am
Burning Since: 2016
Camp Name: Barbie Death Camp
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Skuzzy61 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:36 am

As A DiSH customer, we could bring a mobile Internet connection with the RV, but decided against it. Well, I decided against it. We would share with it anyone, but I could see our little camp overloaded with people texting and the thought of a camp full of people standing/sitting around with their heads buried in their phones disgusts me.

It inspires me to want to create an art piece based on the enslavement of a species to technology, but I will not do it. It would be an angry piece.
I really would like to change the world, but I do not have access to the source code!
Duct tape is like "The Force"! It has a dark and a light side, and holds the universe together!

User avatar
somebodys-mom
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:08 pm
Burning Since: 2014
Camp Name: Camp 511. We provide your traffic info

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby somebodys-mom » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:04 pm

some seeing eye wrote:We have had several technical discussions of Internet connectivity to the event. As far as anyone has been able to determine Gerlach's only connectivity is at the end of a microwave chain from Wadsworth. That chain is overloaded when the event turns on its channels along with the temporary cell sites set up by carriers. The overload decreases the connections available for participant and art project WiFi.
...

The BMORG connection is essential for medical operations (especially in the past when the medical service was directly attached to a local hospital, there was on playa imaging with remote reading), BMORG logistics and probably LEO ops.


As part of the crew that brings 511 traffic and traveler information services to our lovely fellow Burners, having a little better cell coverage would be nice since our traffic readers, remote cameras, and data sensors work on the local cellular network. When it slows down, so does the service we're trying to provide to everyone. Yes, our on-site office is under the BMORG connection but the off-site stuff is reliant on the tech that's already there (plus a whole lotta solar so if you see little cameras or boxes with small solar panels attached, that's probably us so please leave them alone, you wouldn't believe how many people get out and handle them, requiring us to go out and readjust them daily).

I think adding internet would be a double-edged sword. If it weren't for work, I know I'd leave all my tech at home. It gets in my way at the Burn yet it's so useful to everyone else for us to provide the traffic info. It has helped immensely in the case to the state of NV and to the BLM for adding more population to BRC in the future.
Beware of inviting trouble. It usually accepts.

User avatar
Zona
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:56 am
Location: San Carlos
Contact:

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Zona » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:57 pm

Like a strike from space, you are all under mind control.

I was paid to say that by the NSA about "there" directed energy weapons you paid for, but can't see.

Get it yet?
Laika and me went on a ride.

User avatar
Sham
Moderator
Posts: 7944
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:10 am
Location: The hidden mythical place.....

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Sham » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:45 am

I can see this evolving into everyone on the playa hold their phones up to their faces texting their friends the whole week. Having this event being so remote, it was wonderful to have human interaction as well as a disconnect of the outside world. I know some will remain disconnected, but I think we are going to see a good majority of people holding phones to their faces.

ranger magnum
Posts: 731
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:05 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: Outpost Tokyo
Location: santa barbara

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby ranger magnum » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:24 am

For me, the more connectivity the better. Im on Playa for 3 weeks, and the only way I can be allowed that luxury is to be able to work while I'm there.
Praise the Lowered

User avatar
Simon of the Playa
Posts: 18146
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins
Location: Rochester, Nevada.

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:09 am

10616502_10152587781688101_8970741948244418382_n.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Frida Be You & Me

User avatar
vargaso
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya
Location: Lincoln, CA

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby vargaso » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:46 pm

Sham wrote:I can see this evolving into everyone on the playa hold their phones up to their faces texting their friends the whole week. Having this event being so remote, it was wonderful to have human interaction as well as a disconnect of the outside world. I know some will remain disconnected, but I think we are going to see a good majority of people holding phones to their faces.


Would be fun to engage with people staring at phones with some kind of performance art thing. Maybe make a giant phone cutout and offer to hold it up in front of the person wherever they go so they can experience the event through a screen the whole time. I don't know, something fun and light-hearted but with a point.

User avatar
Simon of the Playa
Posts: 18146
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins
Location: Rochester, Nevada.

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:42 am

hithere.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Frida Be You & Me

User avatar
BoyScoutGirl
Posts: 1638
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:04 pm
Camp Name: Lamplighters!
Location: SD, CA

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby BoyScoutGirl » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:45 pm

UGH.

I fervently hope your predictions are wrong for once, Simon.

Also, wasn't the Temple of Like (or whatever the big thumbs up was called) supposed to be drawing attention to this very thing? It was poorly received by most people I spoke with.
When he lights his streetlamp, it is as if he brought one more star to life, or one flower.
When he puts out his lamp, he sends the flower, or the star, to sleep.
That is a beautiful occupation.

- Le Petit Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

User avatar
Simon of the Playa
Posts: 18146
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins
Location: Rochester, Nevada.

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:17 pm

burners can be like luddites, living at the cutting edge...
Frida Be You & Me

User avatar
Dr. Pyro
Posts: 4540
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:11 am
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Barbie Death Camp & Wine Bistro
Location: Newcastle, CA
Contact:

Re: Can fast Internet from new satellites come to Burning Ma

Postby Dr. Pyro » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:48 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:burners can be like luddites, living at the cutting edge...

Or burners can be like Mexican gardeners, living on he edging cut.


Return to “Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest