Culture - Camps - Placement

Share and discuss articles and blog posts about Burning Man and the culture of Burning Man.
User avatar
Token
Posts: 4184
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:55 pm
Burning Since: 2001
Location: Gold Country, CA

Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Token » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:54 pm

https://journal.burningman.org/2018/10/ ... rock-city/

Not a bad read for all us crusty old timers with more opinions than ...

A rare BM survey that did not suck! And y’all know how much I hate BM surveys!

https://goo.gl/forms/LukbcBQafR1EZMMA3

I suggest filling it out in all caps.

User avatar
Ratty
Posts: 5846
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Tiger Man

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Ratty » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:36 pm

What a gip. I was filling it out philosophising and venting. On one section I changed my answer and it wouldn't let me leave that page. I tried deleting all answers but it wasn't happy and I couldn't go forward after that. Well, there's 30 minutes of my life I'll never get back.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

User avatar
gaminwench
Posts: 2805
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:57 am
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: DOTA, EoD, OBOP, Destiny Lounge
Location: Shangri-la

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by gaminwench » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:37 pm

I went for salty. 8)
"the prophecies of doom were better last year" trilo

User avatar
Ratty
Posts: 5846
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Tiger Man

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Ratty » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:39 pm

I'll just read these spam listings. Maybe I'll order some ginco-zeta-microbiotic- sheep sweat.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
Posts: 19993
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:23 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art
Location: Wild, Wild West
Contact:

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by AntiM » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:48 am

I took it. For me,it boils down to a gifting concept. A handmade gift is nicest, no one wants your purchased crap. Handmade and homemade gifts are best. Same with camps. One built from the heart is going to be more interesting and endearing than one purchased from a production company. Just the thought of a camp set up by a production company is ludicrous.

And being rewarded for being wealthy off playa? Who the fuck are they kidding?

User avatar
Captain Goddammit
Posts: 8244
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am
Burning Since: 2000
Camp Name: First Camp
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:06 am

Really, If the First Mate didn’t still want to go, I’d be done with it all until/unless it somehow fell out of favor and it shrank back down to more like it was.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

User avatar
ACfromSAC
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:14 pm
Burning Since: 2020
Camp Name: SLAYER!

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by ACfromSAC » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:34 am

I took this survey yesterday & was surprised by some of the questions asked. Some acknowledgement of some of the major issues that are souring burners to the burn. Whether it will have much (any?) actual impact on future camps / placement / behaviors / burns remains to be seen, but it's nice to be able to voice opinions on the issues.

User avatar
Ratty
Posts: 5846
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Tiger Man

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Ratty » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:46 am

I did it with my coffee this morning. (Last time was user error.) Some of those questions! It made me a little snarky after a while.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

User avatar
Token
Posts: 4184
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:55 pm
Burning Since: 2001
Location: Gold Country, CA

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Token » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:24 am

My big gripe was DGS and “theme camps” being the instrument of the Devil. Everyone wants a placed camp so they can get tickets and early passes.

I pushed hard on cutting theme camps to Esplanade and A/B and going back to non-placed camps.

And villages, outside Kidsville, AEG and Hushville - fuck ‘em. Sorry Doc P.

Decommodificatio above all else - no fucking services. Make BM hard to pull off, not Disneyland in the desert.

User avatar
Dr. Pyro
Posts: 4631
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:11 am
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Barbie Death Camp & Wine Bistro
Location: Newcastle, CA
Contact:

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Dr. Pyro » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:01 am

Token wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:24 am


And villages, outside Kidsville, AEG and Hushville - fuck ‘em. Sorry Doc P.
I'm not sure how to feel about that Token. Certainly didn't exactly make my day.

User avatar
ACfromSAC
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:14 pm
Burning Since: 2020
Camp Name: SLAYER!

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by ACfromSAC » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:20 am

Token wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:24 am
Decommodificatio above all else - no fucking services. Make BM hard to pull off, not Disneyland in the desert.
This was the crux of most of my answers. Burning Man is supposed to be potentially fatal. Stop it with the fresh fruit deliveries WTF!

User avatar
Ratty
Posts: 5846
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Tiger Man

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Ratty » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:53 am

I'm not crazy about villages either. I don't like all the outside services catering to the lazy or unprepared. Put placed camps on the Esplanade and leave some of the ABC for open camps. (It won't work anyway because the WAP users will land grab at 1 minute after the gates open.) This year Placement had a army of 'spies'. They went around, I hope, and introduced themselves. Taking pictures and checking to see if the events really happened. That will weed out some of the slackers.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

User avatar
JohnnyA
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:57 am
Burning Since: 2016
Camp Name: Real Pirate Radio

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by JohnnyA » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:15 am

Token wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:54 pm
Not a bad read for all us crusty old timers with more opinions than ...

A rare BM survey that did not suck! And y’all know how much I hate BM surveys!
Eye-of-the-beholder, I guess.

The vocal crusty old-timers in my camp thought that it sucked big-time, including dredging up a bunch of stuff that was supposed to have been settled years ago, or should have been obvious from the ORG's own 10 Principles.

For a cynical newbie like me, who missed out on those earlier discussions, it looked like the survey questions were worded in an attempt to see how much of the current community is OK with continuing-or-accelerating the slow transformation of Burning Man into some high dollar "Cochella-in-the-Desert Disney Extravaganza".

I strongly rejected that path in my answers ... and it will be very interesting to see the final survey results if they are made public, and to see how the ORG responds to the community's feelings if it shows that the community is against some of the things that the ORG has been allowing or turning a blind-eye towards.

Token wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:24 am
Decommodificatio above all else - no fucking services. Make BM hard to pull off, not Disneyland in the desert.
Yep, absolutely! I thought that was kinda what the whole Burning Man thing was supposed to be about. A shared-passion in creating something absurd and beautiful and difficult in the middle of nowhere ... and then tearing it all down and leaving nothing but memories.

User avatar
Lonesomebri
Posts: 2458
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:54 pm
Burning Since: 2018
Camp Name: CAMP THREAT
Location: NorCal

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Lonesomebri » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:04 pm

Yeah, we'll see if they follow my suggestion and cut back on the boutique hotels set up out on the playa, along with scaling back the boutique hotel operators set up on the BMorg board. Otherwise, yeah, just running more cover for something that should never have happened, is obviously wrong, and could be fixed, but isn't. This arrangement alone reveals the direction the org has taken in directing the Burn culture.

The responses here show that the commodification pnp issue is a major concern.

Will the BMorg address their issue?

I would love to see transparency with the BM orgs own board answering this questionnaire. What direction do they want. I'm curious. Either truthful answers that some of them would have to stumble around to justify to the peons, or hollow platitudes and fake principes that would then have to be explained away, as they aren't followed or enacted by those in the position to do just that.

The most difficult response for me was listing the order of priorities and, following protocol, by placing "Safety" third, instead of where I do it in practice, last on the list.
Camp THREAT: Dominating the porta potties 3 years running.
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
- Voltaire, Candide

User avatar
some seeing eye
Posts: 2843
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:06 pm
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Woo
Location: The Oregon

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by some seeing eye » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:12 pm

The BORG knows a lot about the high-end PnP camps because of the outside services program. It is up to the BORG to audit in whatever behavior they want to that small number of camps and campers. If that was happening, as was promised as a response to sherpa-gate, we wouldn't be having the conversation.

In my view, BM is a wilderness campout (with 80,000 others..) not an exotic luxury safari supported by massive economic differential workers.

We need more person to person face to face acculturation pre-the event, and more hands on participation in basic camp functions at the event, less bad club behavior - involuntary dosing, unwelcome sexual advances, assault, lack of consent, more anonymity - by taking a break from social media, and less MOOPing.

Anonymity is one of my causes, I think it should be the 11th principle. If you are blasting social media and you are a famouspersonTM you need a bodyguard because the general breakdown of our social structures. I have met one famousperson at the event. When I wanted to meet up with their campmate, a long time friend, they were "we don't reveal our location, we will come to you." That's fine with me, because I'm not famous. Even if you are not famous why signal your home can be burgled? Blast it out when you get home. The anonymity problem is also attracting unwelcome LEO attention and demand for ever more resources.

All of those cultural gaps cut across income and personal wealth, though there is a good argument anyone who can take a week or more from work, rents an RV and/or flies in to Reno, LV, SLC or SF, and buys a load of throwaway items, even at wallymort, is moderately wealthy.

All camps need to step up to that. That's why I promote properly run camps over solo camping for virgins, though others here may differ.

The person to person acculturation, face to face, year around, an actual community cannot be replaced by reading the docs after you got your festival ticket, and that system we have today is not working so well. Given BM has arrived, it can afford to tilt the ticket system in that direction. Their stupid surveys are not a substantive way to do that. Let's remove the false choice between the BORG trying to attract more millionaires and their @instaarmcandy (how are we not over that being acceptable today???) vs attracting more festival bucket list fly-ins?

I also commented on the survey we need camp finance transparency. Open books to campers and prospective campers. Today's "what perks can I get for the minimum price?" camp shopping questions common on social media = completely the wrong idea. And frankly I'm fine with an individual making less than, say, $50K total annually, getting paid 1-5-even 10K to organize and run a camp. An experienced burner would probably do a fine job of it for sub-minimum wage while ever urging their campmates to participate. So I'm not absolutist on prohibiting camps budgeting labor within their personal face to face community. Hiring high economic differential labor outside their social community is disgusting. There are more than one report of that for build, break and cleaning RVs at the event. That is likely flying below Outside Services and BLM Outside Services fees today and it has to stop now.

I speculate, though I don't know, that Larry saw the event is a big experiment that shouldn't be guided, so it was not when it should have been. Maybe that will change.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

User avatar
Ratty
Posts: 5846
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Tiger Man

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Ratty » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:47 pm

SSE you and I don't agree on much. JohnnyA, AC and Token we can start a support group for survivalists. These are the times that I miss having a 'like' button.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

User avatar
Token
Posts: 4184
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:55 pm
Burning Since: 2001
Location: Gold Country, CA

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Token » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:11 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:01 am
Token wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:24 am


And villages, outside Kidsville, AEG and Hushville - fuck ‘em. Sorry Doc P.
I'm not sure how to feel about that Token. Certainly didn't exactly make my day.
Your ‘ville is the exception cuz I know BDC from way back in the day, but you gotta break some eggs for an omelette...

User avatar
Token
Posts: 4184
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:55 pm
Burning Since: 2001
Location: Gold Country, CA

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Token » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:13 pm

Ratty wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:47 pm
SSE you and I don't agree on much. JohnnyA, AC and Token we can start a support group for survivalists. These are the times that I miss having a 'like' button.
LOL! Yeah, I chose a third-world lifestyle out in the sticks ...

User avatar
Ratty
Posts: 5846
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Tiger Man

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Ratty » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:25 pm

I live rurally in the city. (No frills.)
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 10071
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:12 pm

Esplanade= theme camps.

A street= open camping.

B street= theme camps.

C street= open camping.

And so on out to the burbs.

Instead of 80% of the city being placed camps.
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

User avatar
Token
Posts: 4184
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:55 pm
Burning Since: 2001
Location: Gold Country, CA

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Token » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:00 pm

Fig, you are onto something. Worth a try.

Ano
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:04 pm
Burning Since: 2011
Camp Name: Everlasting Fuck-you's

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Ano » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:17 pm

I spent way too much time filling out my survey.

For me, it boils down to a couple of things:

1. It's too easy to attend this event with a detached mindset nowadays. There are camps selling deluxe-ish relatively inclusive experiences for $500. I spend more than that every year on stupid shit. I really don't blame newbie for looking at me like I'm an idiot, when the options are A) learn desert survival camping or B) pay Butt Camp for a spot on B Street and a Yurt

2. DGS has had far-reaching unintended consequences, and while at this point it might be a necessary evil, any conversation about trying to enact new standards for Burning Man should consider that seemingly good-hearted changes can fuck things up years down the road.

3. Understanding the challenges that the BORG faces with limiting OSS vis-a-vis the BLM, rich people doing things without permission and making things worse for everyone anyway, and the "prevent-greater-evil" philosophy, we need to figure out how to reduce use of OSS not by new rules or regulations, but naturally via less demand.

User avatar
some seeing eye
Posts: 2843
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:06 pm
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Woo
Location: The Oregon

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by some seeing eye » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:58 am

Ano wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:17 pm

3. Understanding the challenges that the BORG faces with limiting OSS vis-a-vis the BLM, rich people doing things without permission and making things worse for everyone anyway, and the "prevent-greater-evil" philosophy, we need to figure out how to reduce use of OSS not by new rules or regulations, but naturally via less demand.
I would like to see the current and historical outside services data made public, in units - RVs, yurts, generators etc, and in dollar value by unit type.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

User avatar
Jackass
Posts: 1971
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:25 pm
Location: way out in left field

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Jackass » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:46 am

Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

11th Principle: Depussyfication - Keeping Burning Man potentially lethal. Token

User avatar
some seeing eye
Posts: 2843
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:06 pm
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: Woo
Location: The Oregon

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by some seeing eye » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:28 am

I credit Mr Jackass for being the prime mover in the community addressing the PnP issue - thanks! - and he was followed a few days later by the sherpa's lament.

By the way, there was a beautiful culture jam last year where a camp with WiFi Internet set their SSID to the name of an adjacent camp, not sure if it was a PnP.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

User avatar
Jackass
Posts: 1971
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:25 pm
Location: way out in left field

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Jackass » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:49 am

It only took like 4 yrs. for them to finally realize this shit is a problem, now hopefully they listen to Realburner inputs (instead of implanted imposters/PnP operators) and cut the head off of this beast.

NO OSS except for water and shitter service, and NO early entrance for these fake-ass "theme camps".
Let those fools scrap with real burners for real estate and survival, we'll see who wins.

I'd love to see the look on Paris' face when she rolls into her camp on Tuesday only to find an active construction site, running slightly behind schedule. Send an Instagram of that shit!
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

11th Principle: Depussyfication - Keeping Burning Man potentially lethal. Token

User avatar
Ratty
Posts: 5846
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Tiger Man

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Ratty » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:13 am

I don't understand how they get placed. They are all along J, K & L street. Like a solid wall. The moop map shows some failures.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

User avatar
666isMONEY
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:16 pm
Burning Since: 2006
Camp Name: BRCCP
Contact:

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by 666isMONEY » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:04 pm

Better placement for open camping with NO GENERATORS or RV's

DECOMMODIFY: No P&P

SELF RELIANCE: No vendors except ice.

User avatar
Ratty
Posts: 5846
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: Tiger Man

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by Ratty » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:54 pm

NO GENERATORS or RV's
That's 'walk-in' camping. Nice and quiet. Or just join Hushville.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

Pictures or it didn't happen Greycoyote

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

User avatar
666isMONEY
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:16 pm
Burning Since: 2006
Camp Name: BRCCP
Contact:

Re: Culture - Camps - Placement

Post by 666isMONEY » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:53 pm

I don't want to "walk in" and don't like that area.

Almost went to AEZ (Alternate Energy Zone) village this year but ended up selling my ticket because of a family emergency ... didn't really like the location of AEZ but it was better than where I was last year being pushed waaaay back to H-Street and 9:00 for open camping.

Main requirement at AEZ is you must HATE GENERATORS!

Post Reply

Return to “Articles”