A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby BBadger » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:33 pm

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Jackass » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:24 pm

Yep, knowing that you will be hit with a bolt of lightning or will have an attack dog attached to your neck should give pause to those who feel compelled to make a run for it. No more showboating, take that shit back to your camp or go directly to Zendo for your tranquilizer immediately.
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Partypants » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:06 am

So I guess I should have known better than to think this site could have a purpose besides snark and contradiction. But I couldn't imagine anyone would prefer what happened with this years burns as opposed to what was planned. (Yes, enjoy yet another softball opening for more snark and contradiction). From the man to the temple and every burn that was supposed to happen that didn't this year because of Saturday night, the needle of the burn-o-meter (that precision instrument that measures the burning part of burning man), seemed to be pointed towards suckier rather than swell at least when I looked at it. Leaving my opinions on suicide out of the post, I thought this would be a good place to use some of the creative minds that so blow my own every year to think tank some viable options to prevent a repeat in the future and or any possible over correcting before it happens next year. Once the BLM makes changes that are then followed next year, rest assured, they will likely be permanent. Personally I think that our community would likely have better ideas than the people in power that don't give a rats ass about the final product. I love snark as much as the next asshole but I also love the burns as much as the next too. So (just this once) -winces, could we at least forgo (every) reply having to be about snark? (75% snark would likely still accomplish the goal and be entertaining too), as long as we forgo 75% of the straight up contradicktion, the "it won't work because we can't baby proof every porta potty if someone wants to off themselves", or all the "I can't be bothered reading this post because I need to think about what I want to reply", the "it's not our job to be mommy every sad attendee in a city of 70k", or "it won't work because I have nothing to add but really need to type something in hopes of someone thinking I'm clever", or, "everything's ducky and rest assured the BLM will act accordingly", the "I need to somehow manufacture being insulted" on a forum where a vast number of comments are clearly meant to be insulting like "go eat poison" even if followed up with entertaining ones about "instructions on child proof caps", the "let em all wack themselves (because chlorine in the gene pool), we can even have a kill yerself dome! Think of the creativity! (seriously give that one a couple seconds thought) -that coming from one who has considered suicide himself a time or two, thus making it less politically incorrect, but not really, but kinda, but not really. Unfortunately the whole premise/principle of no spectators (only participants) would make this reality a true one and done workshop/event" but I digress. (In my defense, it is keeping within the 75% snark suggestion though). Can we just maybe this one time -winces again, help ourselves help ourselves before shit is permanent? For the love of all things bacon, I'm hoping (some) people can add something other than the obvious swings at all the softballs I just pitched. -Strolls to the bathroom to shit in left hand and hope in right...
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Admiral Fukkit » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:25 am


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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Traveller in Time » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:38 am

One of the point of our comments is the current "prevention system" is already evolved over many years.

As suggested above, more violent action of the guards may be a solution. Complex fence systems are less likely to work.

How about (my favourite 'fence') fill up the perimeter space with package wrapping lint, in loops of 1.5ft, just big enough to step on the side, it swings up and you will fall as the other foot catches the top of the loop.
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby BBadger » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:17 am

Man, paragraphs sure are awesome.
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:36 am

BBadger wrote:Man, paragraphs sure are awesome.


Damnit beat me to the punch.

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby maladroit » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:40 am

Traveller in Time wrote:One of the point of our comments is the current "prevention system" is already evolved over many years.

As suggested above, more violent action of the guards may be a solution. Complex fence systems are less likely to work.

How about (my favourite 'fence') fill up the perimeter space with package wrapping lint, in loops of 1.5ft, just big enough to step on the side, it swings up and you will fall as the other foot catches the top of the loop.


Ten thousand garden rakes!

An impenetrable ring of rat traps!

Every banana peel in Nevada!

Honestly though, the original idea isn't that bad. It's just that thousands of cubic yards of cargo net is an incredibly complex approach. What might be equally effective is three or four rings of stakes with rope or fence wire strung tightly between them around knee level. Shit, a single electrified livestock 2-wire fence might be useful. The idea is to use something that is easily procured and easily managed. Pounding stakes and installing fence wire is a common skill.

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby TT120 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:53 am

This is probably what they're going to end up using to surround the burns from now on......

Image
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Token » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:03 pm

Or we can just make The Man more barrel-chested, put a platform in there and have a sign-up sheet at first camp for those inclined to Wicker Man the damn thing.

Oh, wait, that is a spring-time thing.

Bummer.

Who holds spring-time regionals? I’d like to propose an idea. :twisted:

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby maladroit » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:11 pm

TT120 wrote:This is probably what they're going to end up using to surround the burns from now on......

Image


They somehow scraped up enough to surround the temple burn. At least, it looked like the temple was surrounded by fence from where I was. Plus the 700 volunteers. "Orange vests" they called them, on the radio. I knew something was weird when they were standing almost shoulder to shoulder, and when people on the perimeter team were yelling into the crowd for people to sit down and move their bikes back. Way more involved with the crowd than usual Ranger perimeter.

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Token » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:33 pm

I have a genuine proposal on how to practically solve this problem.

For all those that witnessed in person the 2007 burn of the Oil Derrick...

Fire the fucking fireworks team and dig out DustDevil. DD is a true fire villain with a proven track record.

Set up a “arts budget” to get the thousands of gallons of JP8 and propane, maybe even get his old Blackhawk jet engine ...

Burn The Man in style.

For those who did not experience the Oil Derick burn, DD worked with fire marshals to calculate the pain index relative to distance.

Even at the hundreds of yards from the burn, the pain (deemed safe) was EPIC!

So, the solution is to make every burn PAIN EPIC!

Then you staff a dozen guys in pyro suits to drag out anyone that makes it 50 feet in and collapses in PAIN.

Pain is good.

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby maladroit » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:01 pm

The problem in the first place is that normal self preservation instinct is not something that will work when someone has taken (or been dosed with) wacky juice.

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Admiral Fukkit » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:07 pm

I was at the '07 Crude Awakening (oil derrick) Burn and from a good distance back it was HOT!! One of the cannons didn't even fire. The way I understand it, the epic never-equaled fire blast we got was actually a toned-down version of what they really wanted to do.
There was no warning about just how big a fire blast it was going to be, either. It was just "HOLY FUCK!!!!!.

I'm afraid those days are just gone.

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Traveller in Time » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:14 pm

Excessive heat as a kind of invisible shield magically knocking out too wild public.

Best fence I can imagine. Mobile, no extra moop (gets demolished after perimeter release), self sizing :D
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby GreyCoyote » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:12 pm

The "Final Solution": Kidnap all the hippies, chain them together in a perimeter ring, and cut off all donations of food or beer for 24 hours.

Done.

Nobody would ever get near a hungry, whining, hippie.
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby BBadger » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:55 pm

The smell alone would keep people away.
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby ygmir » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:48 pm

Admiral Fukkit wrote:I was at the '07 Crude Awakening (oil derrick) Burn and from a good distance back it was HOT!! One of the cannons didn't even fire. The way I understand it, the epic never-equaled fire blast we got was actually a toned-down version of what they really wanted to do.
There was no warning about just how big a fire blast it was going to be, either. It was just "HOLY FUCK!!!!!.

I'm afraid those days are just gone.

I was close to the front row and the heat made me cringe. and yeah, Jack said one line malfunctioned...imagine had it worked!!
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby motskyroonmatick » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:17 pm

Token wrote:I have a genuine proposal on how to practically solve this problem.

For all those that witnessed in person the 2007 burn of the Oil Derrick...

Fire the fucking fireworks team and dig out DustDevil. DD is a true fire villain with a proven track record.

Set up a “arts budget” to get the thousands of gallons of JP8 and propane, maybe even get his old Blackhawk jet engine ...

Burn The Man in style.

For those who did not experience the Oil Derick burn, DD worked with fire marshals to calculate the pain index relative to distance.

Even at the hundreds of yards from the burn, the pain (deemed safe) was EPIC!

So, the solution is to make every burn PAIN EPIC!

Then you staff a dozen guys in pyro suits to drag out anyone that makes it 50 feet in and collapses in PAIN.

Pain is good.


That was an amazing burn!!!! I had a really really good laugh as the heat came and numerous people started running away. Good times.
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Savannah » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:54 pm

BBadger wrote:They'll probably just add some portable security/pool safety fences to slow down and corral the runners so they can be caught with fewer people. It's about as much as can be done as a determined runner will eventually be able to bypass obstacles. The perimeter nearly caught the guy running around this time.

The fences could even be built into the structure of the effigy's fence to not look so tacky.


This is what I would like to see. The Temple in 2014, by chance, had a sort of wooden "courtyard" with Gates . . . something like that, built with not just beauty but additional usefulness in mind, could be employed.



motskyroonmatick wrote:
Token wrote:I have a genuine proposal on how to practically solve this problem.

For all those that witnessed in person the 2007 burn of the Oil Derrick...

Fire the fucking fireworks team and dig out DustDevil. DD is a true fire villain with a proven track record.

Set up a “arts budget” to get the thousands of gallons of JP8 and propane, maybe even get his old Blackhawk jet engine ...

Burn The Man in style.

For those who did not experience the Oil Derick burn, DD worked with fire marshals to calculate the pain index relative to distance.

Even at the hundreds of yards from the burn, the pain (deemed safe) was EPIC!

So, the solution is to make every burn PAIN EPIC!

Then you staff a dozen guys in pyro suits to drag out anyone that makes it 50 feet in and collapses in PAIN.

Pain is good.


That was an amazing burn!!!! I had a really really good laugh as the heat came and numerous people started running away. Good times.


I can completely envision how tickled you must have been and the fantastic HA HA HA you must've had. :lol:
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby motskyroonmatick » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:38 pm

Savannah wrote:
BBadger wrote:They'll probably just add some portable security/pool safety fences to slow down and corral the runners so they can be caught with fewer people. It's about as much as can be done as a determined runner will eventually be able to bypass obstacles. The perimeter nearly caught the guy running around this time.

The fences could even be built into the structure of the effigy's fence to not look so tacky.


This is what I would like to see. The Temple in 2014, by chance, had a sort of wooden "courtyard" with Gates . . . something like that, built with not just beauty but additional usefulness in mind, could be employed.



motskyroonmatick wrote:
Token wrote:I have a genuine proposal on how to practically solve this problem.

For all those that witnessed in person the 2007 burn of the Oil Derrick...

Fire the fucking fireworks team and dig out DustDevil. DD is a true fire villain with a proven track record.

Set up a “arts budget” to get the thousands of gallons of JP8 and propane, maybe even get his old Blackhawk jet engine ...

Burn The Man in style.

For those who did not experience the Oil Derick burn, DD worked with fire marshals to calculate the pain index relative to distance.

Even at the hundreds of yards from the burn, the pain (deemed safe) was EPIC!

So, the solution is to make every burn PAIN EPIC!

Then you staff a dozen guys in pyro suits to drag out anyone that makes it 50 feet in and collapses in PAIN.

Pain is good.


That was an amazing burn!!!! I had a really really good laugh as the heat came and numerous people started running away. Good times.


I can completely envision how tickled you must have been and the fantastic HA HA HA you must've had. :lol:
:D
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Elliot » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:08 pm

Oh, dear.
Having measured that rope myself, I opened this thread. ...And quickly remembered why I am no longer very active on ePlaya.
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby maladroit » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:43 pm

I was a little disappointed that it turned into a joke. I'm not going to deny the vanishingly small possibility that someone may in a sober and reasonable frame of mind someday decide that it was time to end their life. But 100% of the people who want to run into the fire need help, not a wave goodbye.

Pretending that it was their decision and they did what they needed to do...that's just a cheap way to avoid feeling any sense of remorse and responsibility as a community to help these people and prevent this from happening again.

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Token » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:37 pm

I’m actually happy the thread drifted into farce. The OP clearly blew a gasket along the way and no good would come of it.

As for some kind of communal sense of ownership for someone’s well being ... it is the US of A ... the constitution cuts both ways wrt mental health.

We as a community cannot adjudicate behavior. The decisions people make are not always actionable for others.

Someone who is contemplating suicide generally has to ask for help to receive it.

I will argue that as a community we have some excellent resources in place to deal with these types of situations and most are grass-roots efforts.

At the end of the day, some things cannot be fixed without trampling on rights.

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby BBadger » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:47 pm

Whatever their motivations or causes, we should prevent people from ending their lives at these events, even if only because of the effects on other people.
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby gaminwench » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:50 pm

My understanding is that he was *almost* contained and broke free, laughing.
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Captain Goddammit » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:52 pm

The thing is, you cannot prevent this from happening with fences and rules.
You'd have to prevent anyone from WANTING to end their life.
That's the only way to prevent suicide. Shit like fences is "too late".
If someone has it in their mind they want to end, fences and barricades aren't going to stop them. It's more a nip it in the bud kind of thing.
Grey Coyote's plan of a ring of starving whining hippies may be more effective than he thought... even someone on the verge of suicide would see them and think, damn maybe I don't have it so bad after all.
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Token » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:56 pm

BBadger wrote:Whatever their motivations or causes, we should prevent people from ending their lives at these events, even if only because of the effects on other people.


"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Irony?

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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby Elliot » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:30 pm

[quote="Token"... ...
Someone who is contemplating suicide generally has to ask for help to receive it.
... ...[/quote]

But friends -- all of us -- can be alert, and knowledgeable, and keep an eye out for signs of emotional distress among our friends. And if... then... please... act.
Because...
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Re: A solution to suicides (at the man burns/ temple burns)

Postby BBadger » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:16 pm

Token wrote:
BBadger wrote:Whatever their motivations or causes, we should prevent people from ending their lives at these events, even if only because of the effects on other people.


"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Irony?


Not really. This isn't something to be applied only for some people and not others. Nobody gets to do it.

Rights are protected to the extent that they don't cause severe detriment to the remainder of society. This isn't a guy exercising his right to free speech at a public event. It's a person taking his life before a large audience, creating a dangerous situation, and overall negatively impacting the event in a dramatic manner. You don't get to be the guy who yells fire in a crowded theater, and you don't get to be the guy who kills himself in the middle of a large public event.

And my statement above is more for events as public spectacles. If you want to end your life in the privacy of your own home, that's beyond the scope of what I'd have prevented.

Captain Goddammit wrote:The thing is, you cannot prevent this from happening with fences and rules.


You can't prevent all cases, but it can make it extremely difficult to carry out to the extent that it probably won't ever be successful. Really, this is more for events with large audiences, not something like a person jumping off something tall or jumping in front of something heavy, etc.
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