Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from people

Theme camps and villages are the interactive core of Burning Man. This is the place to announce and discuss camp and village plans for Burning Man 2019.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:31 pm

Sham wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:48 am
The New York Times. Big stuff!
"Twelve other camps received warnings"
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by gaminwench » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:15 am

No. The clueless are not to be blamed. Designing your camp to rope in the newbies and take their money without acculturation is snake-oil, at best.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:08 am

in my humble opinion, if your plug n’ play is profit driven your days are numbered.

if you’re getting rich off the man, and illegally sub-letting out blm property, maybe you should be prepared to be in a mug shot.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Token » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:38 am

Best bet may indeed be letting BLM know about profits from the Playa.

They want their cut, got a big stick, and hair on the peaches to use it.

https://www.blm.gov/press-release/blm-n ... -man-event
A commercial use is defined as, “recreation use of the public lands and related waters for business or financial gain.” The activity, services, or use is commercial if – “(i) Any person, group, or organization makes or attempts to make a profit, receive money, amortize equipment, or obtain goods or services, as compensation from participants in recreational activities occurring on public lands led, sponsored, or organized by that person, group or organization; (ii) Anyone collects a fee or receives other compensation that is not strictly a sharing or actual expenses, or exceeds actual expenses, incurred for the purposes of the activity, service or use. (iii) There is paid public advertising to seek participants; or (iv) Participants pay for a duty of care or an expectation of safety.”
Sick-em!

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Traveller in Time » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:34 am

Is that not what the Marshals do ?

Getting paid per participant. .
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Skuzzy61 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:35 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:50 pm
Stay outta that Cobra and you’ll be fine
Yeah, when I get it back from the remote shop I have it at, I'll have to push it out of the driveway and let it roll out of the neighborhood before starting it. A lot of Cobra drivers have to go through that ordeal.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:02 am

Token wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:38 am
Best bet may indeed be letting BLM know about profits from the Playa.

They want their cut, got a big stick, and hair on the peaches to use it.

https://www.blm.gov/press-release/blm-n ... -man-event
A commercial use is defined as, “recreation use of the public lands and related waters for business or financial gain.” The activity, services, or use is commercial if – “(i) Any person, group, or organization makes or attempts to make a profit, receive money, amortize equipment, or obtain goods or services, as compensation from participants in recreational activities occurring on public lands led, sponsored, or organized by that person, group or organization; (ii) Anyone collects a fee or receives other compensation that is not strictly a sharing or actual expenses, or exceeds actual expenses, incurred for the purposes of the activity, service or use. (iii) There is paid public advertising to seek participants; or (iv) Participants pay for a duty of care or an expectation of safety.”
Sick-em!


also, does anyone know the answer to this sphinxian riddle..

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Token » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:57 pm

Oh, easy, when you donate $5K+ to park your own RV on BLM land.

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by some seeing eye » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:51 pm

Token wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:38 am
Best bet may indeed be letting BLM know about profits from the Playa.

They want their cut, got a big stick, and hair on the peaches to use it.

https://www.blm.gov/press-release/blm-n ... -man-event
A commercial use is defined as, “recreation use of the public lands and related waters for business or financial gain.” The activity, services, or use is commercial if – “(i) Any person, group, or organization makes or attempts to make a profit, receive money, amortize equipment, or obtain goods or services, as compensation from participants in recreational activities occurring on public lands led, sponsored, or organized by that person, group or organization; (ii) Anyone collects a fee or receives other compensation that is not strictly a sharing or actual expenses, or exceeds actual expenses, incurred for the purposes of the activity, service or use. (iii) There is paid public advertising to seek participants; or (iv) Participants pay for a duty of care or an expectation of safety.”
Sick-em!
Not sure about the hair on the peaches part. But my understanding is that BMCORP pays about 4M expense on about 40M revenue to the BLM. OSS pays 3%? on ? million. Much of OSS is local business, so OSS has political/relationship/real-people-involved value to the event. Limit the growth of OSS, don't pitchfork it to death. Presumably BxA pays the 3%, estimated at about $70k@3% to the BLM.

Should camps with dues pay the BLM ~3%? That would require camps set up a corporate structure and file tax returns. Big camps are going to have a legal structure, usually an LLC for liability (even small camps.) So it should be possible for BLM to demand their 3% pound of flesh FROM REVENUES of (big?/all?) camps.

Be careful what you wish for, as we have found. Say the bad golden camp donated X to the BMORG nonprofit. Or say they paid 3% of revenues to the BLM - a million in camp revenue is 30K to the BLM@3%, so $300/camper at 100 campers, a nit. Are the only power players, the BMORG or the BLM going to kill the golden goose?

Those BLM monies would flow to the Department of Interior. To be used for?

The dilemma is that, as I understand it (and I may be entirely wrong,) is that the BLM commerce fee is a revenue fee, not a net profit fee. The 10 principles are about profits, not revenues.

The rebellion is about revenues in the context of changes in the American economy, rightly.

So the question is as complex as the brine shrimp ecosystem of the playa. Entirely in my opinion, of course.

Check my math, I make mistakes often.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Ratty » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:49 pm

I love to hear people's opinions. Once they start guessing, (at anything. Not just numbers.) I lose interest fast. It's like someone telling you about last nights dream. Hypotheticals lose me even quicker. Speculation based on hard facts is sometimes interesting. Just an observation I've made about myself.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Sham » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:02 pm

Ratty wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:49 pm
I love to hear people's opinions. Once they start guessing, (at anything. Not just numbers.) I lose interest fast. It's like someone telling you about last nights dream. Hypotheticals lose me even quicker. Speculation based on hard facts is sometimes interesting. Just an observation I've made about myself.
It turns out that 84% of the population makes up random numbers. In my opinion, that's a cold hard fact.

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:33 am

i speculate based on opinion that donations will be down 84% this year for at least 12 tribes.


gosh, it almost sounds biblical.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Token » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:59 am

some seeing eye wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:51 pm

... But my understanding is that BMCORP pays about 4M expense on about 40M revenue to the BLM...
Those are charged under different mandates;

1. Daily use fee for gatherings with some minimum threshold of headcount. Last I looked it was 10 people or more - some remnant of anti-rave rules. Gotta get the permit.

2. BLM recoups and bills the BORG for LEO tab and Choco-Tacos.

The BORG is the organizer, not a vendor. They will pay based on headcount for both the use permit and LEO bill, not based on their revenues.

That there would be some questionable causation.

Now, we can speculate about the LEO bill being “inflated” just because the BLM sees the BORG books and knows how much $$ is flowing through, but that would be illegal now wouldn’t it!

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:53 pm

there is an agent dan love shack joke here somewhere, i just have to find it
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Melyssa48 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:11 am

Year after year we hear about plug and play camps that fuck things over. They leave behind couches, they leave a pile of trash, they exclude everyone not paying, they foster spectators, and on and on. So why exactly do we need these camps? Is the org that hard up for money? Do they really think fostering this type of camp helps spread the ethos of burning man when they clearly just promote vacations for the well to do who don't really want to participate? Can anyone give me a good reason not to simply ban plug and play camps?
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by gaminwench » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:29 am

The members of the Org enjoy dancing with the FancyFolk?

There is some monetary kickback? (in addition to the social capital?)

MVs and BigArt projects benefit from donations?

*Me, I like the back streets and the small art.*
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by stephaniegrafton » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:22 am

Interesting post over in the cultural correction forum... Playaskool apparently changed its name to "The Daydream Group" and everything starts from scratch? Again luring virgins in and taking their money again? Surprised the org allows them to place 100 people after what happened.
Wake up organizers! It's the same again, in a different colour. The fight against PnP won't work if this is allowed to happen again.
Playa_Lover wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:23 am
Playa$kool changing its name?

I really like the Burning Man cultural restore/reset button that Marian has addressed. Camp Humano is out for this year, but are they? Will they still be here under the guise of a different name & theme? What about Play$kool? The unofficial vote is in (over the past months) & most burners outside of a few wealthy PnP loyalists & "The Fakulty", find PS intolerable & everything they represent.......... real & pretend. The new rumors are this, Playa$kool has rebranded itself into something calling itself,

Email:

"We cordially invite you to JOIN Daydream 2019  
We will be selecting 100 Dreamers to become inaugural members of The Daydream Group"

“Daydreaming is a lost art. Simply, it's something that we've just forgotten or stopped
practicing as part of the creative flow of life. We have forgotten the importance of pausing
for a moment to stare at the clouds with wonder as they drift by. To ask the simple
questions: how, why, when, what if?” - The Daydream Group

The former PS camp lead has taken precautions & there's no mention of camp prices or fees. They start with 100 invitations & what about next year? 300-400 hotel guests again paying up to $12K for a RV parking spot & a great European chef prepared breakfast? Garcon, I'll take my Black Rhino sausage medium rare & hold the strawberries with the champagne, S'il vous plaît!

My thoughts; I think the invitation (Do you think about me when you stare up at the moon?), sounds like a line from the movie, "Joe Dirt".

When someone steps in a pile of poo & calls the pile, caviar & truffles......it's still poo.
Last edited by stephaniegrafton on Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Bless » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:38 am

A rose by any other name...
FUCK YOU, I'M A WIZARD. FUCK YOU, I'M A SHARK.

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Simon of the Playa » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:03 pm

52389117-D5A1-4D64-AB97-41801CD92FD2.jpeg
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by maxtov » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:20 am

On the original topic - you guys seem to have made an honest mistake of going with PnP camp, but coming from overseas first time and such you can hardly be blamed for that. However a mistake it still is, and the $250 you've lost can be considered as a cost of it. Doubt you gonna get your money back - I mean PS camp most likely hasn't devised its money grab scheme with refunds in mind.
Now off to a big picture...

Current trend seems to be like this - core crew of a given camp has some ideas grandes in mind and needs funds to make it happen. They are ready to put time & effort, however are short of $. One of the obvious funding sources is camp dues - pull 40-50 additional folks into your camp @ say $x00 p/p and your project starts shaping up. All sounds good, but they have to attract this crowd with something for their money - water, meal plan, maybe some extra tents & bikes from past years and such. One thing leads to another and the camp starts getting real close to PnP, sans hired help and profit angle. I've personally met more than a few virgins over the course of past several years, whose answers re their plans for water, food, bikes and shelter were "oh, we're paying $500 or so camp dues and camp provides all the above". As a result loads of clueless folks show up leaving self reliance lost in the dust behind the buses they arrive in.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by BBadger » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:47 pm

It's hard to really determine what constitutes a PnP camp, and what is just a high-dues camp that provides many, or all, amenities. This is why I want to at least kill off the BORG-sanctioned mechanisms that encourage and enable these kinds of camps to operate such as mass transportation that encourages board-a-flight-we're-going-to-Burning-Man-resort culture.

Also is it just hearsay that unplaced PnP camps appear to be able to set up facilities prior to the event starting? How is this even possible? Shouldn't all open camping areas be considered forbidden zones for setup until the moment the gates open?

If it's going on, I would have all vehicles parked in such zones without permits to be towed and impounded at the owner's expense, and all unauthorized camps torn down and demolished, possibly with law enforcement backing -- like the illegal homes of rich people in India.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Ano » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:45 pm

BBadger wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:47 pm


(a) Also is it just hearsay that unplaced PnP camps appear to be able to set up facilities prior to the event starting? (b) How is this even possible? (c) Shouldn't all open camping areas be considered forbidden zones for setup until the moment the gates open?

Point A: I have personally observed this, as a lifelong suburban camper (minus 2013). Areas sans blue flags and well outside placement boundaries start being filled up with infrastructure during theme camp early access week.

Point B: Various ways. One can volunteer with a Borg department and get a WAP. The most common way, I believe is through MVs. Up until this year, you could get a fuckton of WAPs through bringing an MV. I am willing to be this is why we had new population rules regarding MVs. I don't have the exact number, but for one MV I know of, they would get more WAPs and DGS than they had campers specifically to guarantee entrance for friends, and to get friends on playa early. It is a loophole that is now closed. Another way would be to sneak workers in through OSS, which is also not unheard of, but highly dangerous for said OSS vendor, but has happened.

Point C: What about Borg volunteers/workers who are unaffiliated with theme camps, MVs, or their own work camp? My entire camp is an unplaced theme camp made up of Borg workers, we start showing up around Early Burn, and we clear out sometime after Trash Man. I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but this opens up a world of problems for people who are legitimately on playa, not bad actors setting up turnkeys, and trying to find spots to camp.

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by BBadger » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:57 am

Ano wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:45 pm
Point A: I have personally observed this, as a lifelong suburban camper (minus 2013). Areas sans blue flags and well outside placement boundaries start being filled up with infrastructure during theme camp early access week.
That's the thing though: I thought it was forbidden for people with EA/WAP permits to claim space until the gates open. I remember with my old camp how some of the leads, who worked with the Artery, had to rely on other camp-mates getting in ASAP after the gates opened in order to secure spots in decent areas. Eventually, we had to just claim some area in the outer rings when it was less contested.

If we can't necessarily distinguish between what is a PnP camp and what is not, it should be at least where they have to play by the same rules as everyone else, or be subjected to scrutiny as placed camps.

Some of these camps are also quite extensive, the kind of thing that would require relatively large-scale setup and transportation of goods, not just some people squatting part of a block. I almost want to see BRC patrolled for unauthorized pre-event squatters, with some specific directed means for authorized WAP holders to setup camps in a documented manner.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by lucky420 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:34 am

BBadger wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:57 am
Ano wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:45 pm
Point A: I have personally observed this, as a lifelong suburban camper (minus 2013). Areas sans blue flags and well outside placement boundaries start being filled up with infrastructure during theme camp early access week.
That's the thing though: I thought it was forbidden for people with EA/WAP permits to claim space until the gates open. I remember with my old camp how some of the leads, who worked with the Artery, had to rely on other camp-mates getting in ASAP after the gates opened in order to secure spots in decent areas. Eventually, we had to just claim some area in the outer rings when it was less contested.

If we can't necessarily distinguish between what is a PnP camp and what is not, it should be at least where they have to play by the same rules as everyone else, or be subjected to scrutiny as placed camps.

Some of these camps are also quite extensive, the kind of thing that would require relatively large-scale setup and transportation of goods, not just some people squatting part of a block. I almost want to see BRC patrolled for unauthorized pre-event squatters, with some specific directed means for authorized WAP holders to setup camps in a documented manner.
You can’t claim space from A- G anything past G, you can claim
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Ano » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:54 am

BBadger wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:57 am
Ano wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:45 pm
Point A: I have personally observed this, as a lifelong suburban camper (minus 2013). Areas sans blue flags and well outside placement boundaries start being filled up with infrastructure during theme camp early access week.
That's the thing though: I thought it was forbidden for people with EA/WAP permits to claim space until the gates open. I remember with my old camp how some of the leads, who worked with the Artery, had to rely on other camp-mates getting in ASAP after the gates opened in order to secure spots in decent areas. Eventually, we had to just claim some area in the outer rings when it was less contested.
Well, you can build infrastructure/camp as long as it's actively being used.

I know this might get me some pushback, but my camp does this. Our first arrivers get our shade up, get their carports up, and park their cars, and then as the rest of us arrive we slowly expand outward.

Last year, I know for a 100% fact that Humano dropped shipping containers outside of their placement boundaries in order to save space, and when confronted, they said they didn't care. I personally observed shipping containers being vomited around their space.

I'm gonna bet one of the following as well:

1. They have their workers "use" the infrastructure until it's time for opening, and then rules relax and they just shit all over the place to gain space

2. There's some unspoken protection for turnkeys where they get to bend the rules

(I'm willing to bet it's a little bit of 1 and a little bit of 2, because at this point some shit is egregious and it never gets squelched)

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:57 am

#2

no shit sherlock

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:52 am

Ano wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:54 am
Last year, I know for a 100% fact that Humano dropped shipping containers outside of their placement boundaries in order to save space, and when confronted, they said they didn't care. I personally observed shipping containers being vomited around their space.
You should send this information to doingitright@ and placement@ directly.

There are a manageable number of OSS that drop containers, generators, refers, and housing (pre-gate) - they need to be managed by the BORG to only, only, only drop in the associated specific Placement area for that specific camp.
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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by Ano » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:14 am

some seeing eye wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:52 am
Ano wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:54 am
Last year, I know for a 100% fact that Humano dropped shipping containers outside of their placement boundaries in order to save space, and when confronted, they said they didn't care. I personally observed shipping containers being vomited around their space.
You should send this information to doingitright@ and placement@ directly.

There are a manageable number of OSS that drop containers, generators, refers, and housing (pre-gate) - they need to be managed by the BORG to only, only, only drop in the associated specific Placement area for that specific camp.
I did this shortly after getting back from the dust. I know I wasn't alone, either - I've been submitting feedback on Humano for years, and this was a part of my yearly feedback loop to them.

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Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:45 am

Ano wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:14 am
I did this shortly after getting back from the dust. I know I wasn't alone, either - I've been submitting feedback on Humano for years, and this was a part of my yearly feedback loop to them.
Well burner done.

I would suggest you re-poke them to cover this explicitly at the theme camp confab @https://www.eventbrite.com/e/2019-burni ... 3922002160 March 23-24

I'm not going, but more ePlaya detective reporters can only be a good thing. I believe some will be webcast and even archived. I've reposed last year's OSS come to Jesus Larry Youtube on here.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

stephaniegrafton
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:17 am
Burning Since: 2015

Re: Plug&Play Camp PlayaSkool - Camp Probably intentionally left Moop to keep deposit and legally steal money from peopl

Post by stephaniegrafton » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:05 am

Mario, I have to give you credit for starting this discussion. Here soothing info:

Last week in the Theme Camp Organizer's forum, the PS head, Jon, openly admitted that they had a strike team (so they did have a strike team and weren't dependent on their campers as they claimed). And that strike team cleaned up properly, see screenshots below.
Therefore, PS had no freaking reason to keep this $50-100k deposit. The campers obviously were not the reason for the bad moop score. Nobody to blame but themselves.
In the first post below, PS first blames the campers, second post right after contradicts this and clearly sparks the question why the bad moop score is such a mystery. Bad moop score is bad for the playa, the org and everybody else, but good for P$ $pockets.
Your thread title hits the nail on the head, outright stealing I call this IMHO.
Better to post this before he removes it again. Happens always with his posts. But this is the internet. Typical PS strategy: deviating from the real problem and not answering questions.
disclosure: the screenshots are from a public forum with thousands of members, therefore public information and not a privacy concern.
PS_FB_TCO.JPG
PS_FB_TCO.JPG (73.35 KiB) Viewed 218 times
PS_FB_TCO2.JPG

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