Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

A forum for community conversation and deeper discussions about the cultural direction of Burning Man.
User avatar
Token
Posts: 4828
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:55 pm
Burning Since: 2001
Location: Gold Country, CA

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Token » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:37 pm

goodleaf wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:26 pm
“I can do very little to influence how people treat you. I wish I could.”

This is complacency. Why don’t you (1) ask how you can help influence how people treat others or (2) research how you can help influence people? Instead of assuming you can’t?

Members of any majority population are often the best situated to influence how the majority treats others.
Oh Fuck!

I’ve been complacent!!

Actually, majorities have historically done squat to promote change.

Minorities have fought long and hard via education, community engagement, activism, to advance their agenda. They helped themself engage a broader population towards a better outcome.

Blaming others of complacency is like expecting someone to do your homework.

Be the change you want to see. educate. inspire.

goodleaf
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:50 am
Burning Since: 2018

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by goodleaf » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:40 am

“Be the change you want to see. educate. inspire.“

We are (as we always have been) - just wishing more would be allies (as we always have wished).

User avatar
lucky420
Posts: 9746
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:47 am
Burning Since: 2023
Camp Name: Dye with Dignity
Location: Reno, NV

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by lucky420 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:34 am

goodleaf wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:40 am
“Be the change you want to see. educate. inspire.“

We are (as we always have been) - just wishing more would be allies (as we always have wished).
I’m an ally. If I ever do or say something that isn’t right (in this regard) please school me. I hope that I can learn and do better and won’t take offense at being taught
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

FlyingMonkey
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by FlyingMonkey » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:13 am

FlyingMonkey wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:47 pm
Ano wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:25 pm
FlyingMonkey wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:54 pm

I’d recommend self-identifying as a Burner first & see if that helps foster an open conversation.

[snip]

Identifying as a POC first frames your perspective and (believe it or not) limits your objectivity.
I had to walk away for a few days before I could adequately respond to this, and honestly I still don't have a response to it.

Instead, I've taken a screenshot of your post and I intend on printing it and sharing it with people when they want to have serious and frank discussions about the racial experience at Burning Man. This is an absolutely beautiful and fantastic example as to how incredibly ignorant people can be. It's so damn good that it should go into a book.

The only response I can muster without getting unreasonably sad:

I can't, dude. I literally cannot do that. And I'm not the one who gets to make that choice.



Can you honestly say that there is a systemic problem with racism at burning man? I'd be curious to hear more. Would you say it's just in the Org or with the participants in general?

...

So aside from the people you had mentioned previously, have you felt you have ever been excluded or not welcome at a camp or art car because of the color of your skin? That would be a larger problem.

...

Let’s have this frank discussion.
I don't come here often anymore so I'm a little surprised that no one is discussing what they have specifically experienced at Burning Man.

Considering the passion of the initial replies (too include quoting me as an example of someone who just doesn’t get it) I'd think there would be all kinds of examples of racial exclusion at the event.

I am genuinely interested to hear about this and possibly be convinced that my initial feelings on this topic were inaccurate due to ignorance on my part because I have not personally encountered it.

So far I have only seen that some people were treated poorly but only on an individual basis. So unless someone chimes in I have to assume that Burning Man (as an Org & an Event) doesn’t have an actual problem with racial inclusion.

Here is your opportunity to have that discussion. If you don't take this opportunity to explain what you have experienced how can you possibly hope to elicit change?

This is about correcting something that’s wrong, isn't it?
In your wildest dreams you can not imagine the marvelous SURPRISES that await YOU.

Ironically we all chuckled when the Fyre Festival imploded because we had a "real" event.

User avatar
lucky420
Posts: 9746
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:47 am
Burning Since: 2023
Camp Name: Dye with Dignity
Location: Reno, NV

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by lucky420 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:14 pm

FlyingMonkey wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:13 am
FlyingMonkey wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:47 pm
Ano wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:25 pm


I had to walk away for a few days before I could adequately respond to this, and honestly I still don't have a response to it.

Instead, I've taken a screenshot of your post and I intend on printing it and sharing it with people when they want to have serious and frank discussions about the racial experience at Burning Man. This is an absolutely beautiful and fantastic example as to how incredibly ignorant people can be. It's so damn good that it should go into a book.

The only response I can muster without getting unreasonably sad:

I can't, dude. I literally cannot do that. And I'm not the one who gets to make that choice.



Can you honestly say that there is a systemic problem with racism at burning man? I'd be curious to hear more. Would you say it's just in the Org or with the participants in general?

...

So aside from the people you had mentioned previously, have you felt you have ever been excluded or not welcome at a camp or art car because of the color of your skin? That would be a larger problem.

...

Let’s have this frank discussion.
I don't come here often anymore so I'm a little surprised that no one is discussing what they have specifically experienced at Burning Man.

Considering the passion of the initial replies (too include quoting me as an example of someone who just doesn’t get it) I'd think there would be all kinds of examples of racial exclusion at the event.

I am genuinely interested to hear about this and possibly be convinced that my initial feelings on this topic were inaccurate due to ignorance on my part because I have not personally encountered it.

So far I have only seen that some people were treated poorly but only on an individual basis. So unless someone chimes in I have to assume that Burning Man (as an Org & an Event) doesn’t have an actual problem with racial inclusion.

Here is your opportunity to have that discussion. If you don't take this opportunity to explain what you have experienced how can you possibly hope to elicit change?

This is about correcting something that’s wrong, isn't it?

You might be reaching out to mostly the wrong crowd here. Not all burners eplaya and just because You don’t see it or experience it or have only heard 1 or 2 stories doesn’t mean it’s not a thing. why would somebody come here and tell non truths about it? How much proof do you need before you can accept that it’s a thing and it does affect people?
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

claybcook
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:55 am
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: Anonymous Village

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by claybcook » Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:22 am

To answer the initial question: Yes.

Sometimes "No" is a complete sentence. Anything said after that only dilutes what has been said before.

If you begin with the statement and Principle of "Radical Inclusion", but then proceed to say, "And we're ESPECIALLY Interested in including you, if you're X, Y or Z," you've just reduced your commitment. Because, now, clearly you're more interested in certain sorts of inclusion (X, Y or Z) and less interested in others, like A, B, & C.

Radical Inclusion is as good as it gets. It doesn't mean everyone will like you. Several of you are not liking me right now. I'm sad about that, but I will have to carry that and survive. As you may have to.
...extremely gruntled...very ept and full of ruth.

User avatar
Elorrum
Posts: 5654
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:09 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Location: Reno

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Elorrum » Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:38 am

Is wealth exclusionary by race in the world? Would that be reflected at burning man? A recreational event in high worldwide demand. I think, yes.

Is the attendance at the Super Bowl inclusive? The price point makes it tough. Would they worry and try to make ticketing more fair? I don’t think so. They can charge whatever they want and get it.

Burning Man is in too high a demand to be inclusive. It’s nice that the principles nudge folks to consider things, really they do little more.
”On second thought, Let’s not go to Camelot. It’s a silly place.”
One could do worse than be a swinger of birches. - Robert Frost

User avatar
gaminwench
Posts: 3102
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:57 am
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: DOTA, EoD, OBOP, Destiny Lounge
Location: Blue Ridge-la

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by gaminwench » Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:00 pm

I know many people of color that attend Burning Man. Some of them are not wealthy, others are.

In every Camp that I have lived with out there, there have been POC.

Never have I heard of any being excluded or othered.
"the prophecies of doom were better last year" trilo

User avatar
Lonesomebri
Posts: 2744
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:54 pm
Burning Since: 2024
Camp Name: CAMP THREAT
Location: NorCal

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Lonesomebri » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:04 am

White folks results are in, racism ends at exit mile 8. What a relief.
Maybe I was there: Camp THREAT. BRCCP core disgruntled member. Burner. Setting fires since 1974.
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
- Voltaire, Candide

User avatar
Popeye
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:39 pm
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Beaverton
Location: Where the east wind blows

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Popeye » Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:58 pm

gaminwench wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:00 pm
I know many people of color that attend Burning Man. Some of them are not wealthy, others are.

In every Camp that I have lived with out there, there have been POC.

Never have I heard of any being excluded or othered.
You are "othered" if the reason you are included or made allowance for (tolerated) is the color of your skin, race, gender expression or sexual expression.
Misogyny, both systematic and individual is so ingrained that many do not know how insulting their actions are. Yes, on Playa too and by long time Burners.
Unfortunately, the only way to correct this that I have found is to make yourself visible and let this become normal over time. For example the "Black Lives Matters" protests and parades and Pride and Transgender Day/Week of Visibility.

Gaminwench, this isn't directed at you, you just gave me the opportunity to voice it.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do / with your one wild and precious life?” Mary Oliver

User avatar
gaminwench
Posts: 3102
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:57 am
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: DOTA, EoD, OBOP, Destiny Lounge
Location: Blue Ridge-la

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by gaminwench » Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:36 pm

Yeah, in 'my camps' color of skin/ethnic origin, was never a 'thing'.

I am not saying it doesn't happen, but that in *my experience*, it was not a 'consideration'.
"the prophecies of doom were better last year" trilo

User avatar
ygmir
Posts: 29960
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by ygmir » Thu Apr 14, 2022 7:03 am

also consider:
"If you look hard enough, and want enough for it to exist, you'll find it".
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

FlyingMonkey
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by FlyingMonkey » Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:50 am

ygmir wrote:
Thu Apr 14, 2022 7:03 am
also consider:
"If you look hard enough, and want enough for it to exist, you'll find it".
+1000

Anyone else notice that the OP has one and only one post?

I don't like political/social justice posts. Can we get this thread censored? (see how it works)

While I think it's a question worth asking I think it implies more than it asks.

Bottom line, if you think you are surrounded by racist assholes then find better assholes to hang around with. Better yet lead by example and start a camp that champions your cause. Empower yourself.
In your wildest dreams you can not imagine the marvelous SURPRISES that await YOU.

Ironically we all chuckled when the Fyre Festival imploded because we had a "real" event.

User avatar
Elorrum
Posts: 5654
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:09 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Location: Reno

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Elorrum » Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:16 am

FlyingMonkey wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:50 am
Empower yourself.
And just like that, elitism and oppressive class structure which supports racism, ended. 🤣
”On second thought, Let’s not go to Camelot. It’s a silly place.”
One could do worse than be a swinger of birches. - Robert Frost

FlyingMonkey
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by FlyingMonkey » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:42 am

Elorrum wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:16 am
FlyingMonkey wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:50 am
Empower yourself.
And just like that, elitism and oppressive class structure which supports racism, ended. 🤣
WTF are you talking about?

I wasn't talking about society as a whole.

I was saying that someone has complete control over who they associate with at Burning Man and can improve their surroundings by not being around racist people. Do you think the OP (who is a one post Troll) is not capable of helping themselves (talk about elitism)? What part of that you disagree with & what would you have them do differently? No really.

Thank you for turning ePlaya in to Twitter.

* Plonk *
In your wildest dreams you can not imagine the marvelous SURPRISES that await YOU.

Ironically we all chuckled when the Fyre Festival imploded because we had a "real" event.

User avatar
Token
Posts: 4828
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:55 pm
Burning Since: 2001
Location: Gold Country, CA

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Token » Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:30 pm

FlyingMonkey wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:42 am
Elorrum wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:16 am
FlyingMonkey wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:50 am
Empower yourself.
And just like that, elitism and oppressive class structure which supports racism, ended. 🤣
WTF are you talking about?

I wasn't talking about society as a whole.

I was saying that someone has complete control over who they associate with at Burning Man and can improve their surroundings by not being around racist people. Do you think the OP (who is a one post Troll) is not capable of helping themselves (talk about elitism)? What part of that you disagree with & what would you have them do differently? No really.

Thank you for turning ePlaya in to Twitter.

* Plonk *
Dude! It was a joke. Playa Snark.

The crying-laughing emoji was a dead giveaway.

Breathe my man.

FlyingMonkey
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by FlyingMonkey » Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:58 pm

Token wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:30 pm
FlyingMonkey wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:42 am
Elorrum wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:16 am


And just like that, elitism and oppressive class structure which supports racism, ended. 🤣
WTF are you talking about?

I wasn't talking about society as a whole.

I was saying that someone has complete control over who they associate with at Burning Man and can improve their surroundings by not being around racist people. Do you think the OP (who is a one post Troll) is not capable of helping themselves (talk about elitism)? What part of that you disagree with & what would you have them do differently? No really.

Thank you for turning ePlaya in to Twitter.

* Plonk *
Dude! It was a joke. Playa Snark.

The crying-laughing emoji was a dead giveaway.

Breathe my man.
Sorry man. Sometimes I'm just numb to that. Sometimes it's actually hard to tell. Maybe I just need to get some playa dust on me & thicken my skin.

Either way I need to get some Playa dust on me.

Sorry if I misunderstood & overreacted. This thread just sets me off.

But I'm cool with saying sorry I'm an ass. Probably won't be the last time so keep an eye on me. :wink:
In your wildest dreams you can not imagine the marvelous SURPRISES that await YOU.

Ironically we all chuckled when the Fyre Festival imploded because we had a "real" event.

User avatar
Elorrum
Posts: 5654
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:09 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Location: Reno

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Elorrum » Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:08 pm

I was blunt and took a cheap shot. I’m sorry.
”On second thought, Let’s not go to Camelot. It’s a silly place.”
One could do worse than be a swinger of birches. - Robert Frost

User avatar
Token
Posts: 4828
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:55 pm
Burning Since: 2001
Location: Gold Country, CA

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Token » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:29 am

I love a good hug-out!

My peeps is special!


Love you all like a bandit.

User avatar
ygmir
Posts: 29960
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by ygmir » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:29 am

Token wrote:
Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:29 am
I love a good hug-out!

My peeps is special!


Love you all like a bandit.
*Clutch Cargo joke *
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

Post Reply

Return to “Black Rock City Cultural Direction”