Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Sham » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:09 pm

This story was picked up in a New Zealand newspaper. I wonder how it will affect ticket scarcity.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/ ... d=12206216

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by some seeing eye » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:31 pm

@Sham Thank you for finding that! I've met quite a few Aussies and Kiwis traveling, and some on playa.

It's great that the message of what the event wants to return to culturally is being heard globally! Hope it gets to more OZ news outlets.

The NZ/AU custom is the year round-the-world tour post college. It is the walkabout from indigenous Aus culture. Airfare off their rocks is expensive and round-the-world is not much more. So young people traveling from there are not wealthy, and they are on the vision quest, I'd recommend that to everyone, many times in a life.

I'm eternally thankful I flirted an Aussie at the event and discovered the first mobility camp through her. That camp had a special situation, a ranch in Reno to host burners pre- and post-, and a great camp infrastructure. The camp hosted fly-ins who were deep and heavy supporting alter-mobility burners.

To the original topic, we are talking how to call back rogue open source bad directions - infinite wealth and infinite fame. I hope we can someday talk about aspirational culture, infinite aspiration?
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Toe » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:34 pm

Just photobomb all the pro photoshoots. An amorphous cultural problem might require a cacophonous cultural solution.

Photobombing in diapers seems to be part of the equation. It's classic culture jamming and it works. Here's how to DIY:

https://www.burn.life/blog/weirdout-wed ... -man-weird

There have been a few bits of wisdom regarding our culture. One on photobombing which is a nice bottom-up approach:
"Nothing wrong with taking pics of yourselves, but if you can't handle a little Burning Man in your Burning Man, you're in the wrong place." -Dr. Yes

And another on top-down enforcement:
"First come the rule makers, which create the rule breakers, which creates the need for the rule enforcers, and the next thing you know, it's like taking your vacation in Union Square at noon on a weekday... " -samtzu (talking about burner sex in 2004)

The Borg can handle the MOOPers; the rest of us can be the change by dressing like goofball burners and getting in the way. This is how Burning man has a life of its own rather than trying to 'police the reef '.

Diapered photobombs.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Token » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:36 am

I find it is much more effective to use a leaf blower when the photog has his $5000 camera out ready for the shoot.

It’s nice.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by John_Q_Public » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:23 am

Of course tickets are going to be scarce. I have no idea how to correct something like that.

My first year I was in an informal camp because even after asking everyone i met and reading all i could, I was worried I was over my head. The camp was an unpleasant experience that dissolved into a lot of animosity of who was doing more, power dynamics, frustration and ill will by the end.

Maybe I read the message from Marian differently because of my point of view and history.

I heard about how camps are excluding people and picking winners and losers and yet they have been allocated more DGS tickets? This is also why I have been hesitant to join a camp. I hate that I feel like I'm in an audition or must prove my self worth. What I fell in love with at BM is the welcoming I felt. The message I got was "You are home and you are one of us."

The people on this thread talk about how much they vet and are careful about who they bring to their camps with them; how the dues from one member pays for the inability of the staving artist to come and contribute. Is ones contribution greater than the others? The Logical Path sounds like we should have each person who wants to attend send in a Bio and essay of why they should be allowed to attend BM and what they see as their value and contribution. A council of elected Burners will them decide who will receive tickets. To be honest I am not sure this is any different than how the camps currently select their members.

We all (including myself) like to talk about the givers and takers on the playa. The crazy thing is that if everyone had their acts together and 100% followed the principles it probably would not much fun. There would be no need for bike repair, fur seats, or cold drinks in deep playa. We do what we do in a hard place because it is hard. When just surviving becomes to easy, we start building unnecessary things. When that becomes to easy, we build even more and bigger things. Our anger over the PnP camps and people is that they are missing something that we believe is critical to the experience, struggle.

I am done rambling. I'm not sure why this has all bothered me so much. I guess i took the change as the BORG saying that camps have more value than me.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by mgb327 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:22 pm

I agree JohnQPublic, I/we are a very small informal camp, 4-7 people. Was speaking with my campmate tonight about the increase in "theme camp tickets". Open camping is getting smaller, theme camps are getting larger. Larger in both tickets and space. I think, at some point, everyone will have to be a "camp member". Soooo, we will have to camp out in walk-in.
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by FIGJAM » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:10 am

Part of my issue with being in a placed camp is having to camp where you are placed.

I camped where I did to maximize street access and orient my shade for max effect.

In a sense…… freedom.
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by mgb327 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:08 am

FIGJAM wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:10 am
Part of my issue with being in a placed camp is having to camp where you are placed.

I camped where I did to maximize street access and orient my shade for max effect.

In a sense…… freedom.
+1000
Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them’s making a poop, the other one’s carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge?
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Token » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:21 pm

John_Q_Public wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:23 am

The crazy thing is that if everyone had their acts together and 100% followed the principles it probably would not much fun.
And that is where you fail, my son.

Most had their act together.
Most played within the elastic band of the principles pants.
We had EPIC fun!
It was unbelievably better!
You missed it.

Now all you can do is assume things, more often than not, the wrong things.

Now go make daddy another drink.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Lonesomebri » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:07 pm

Meanwhile, on a page devoted to this very thing, Black Rock City Cultural Direction Setting, the solutions being pitched are more airplanes, a larger airport, opening up the rail depot south of BRC...
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Papa Bear » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:12 pm

Lonesomebri wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:07 pm
Meanwhile, on a page devoted to this very thing, Black Rock City Cultural Direction Setting, the solutions being pitched are more airplanes, a larger airport, opening up the rail depot south of BRC...
To be fair, they also want to eliminate the airport, close the gate after Wednesday, create secret police to try to get on mutant vehicles or into suspected PnP theme camps, jam cell towers, attach names to tickets and require id at the gate, eliminate all fossil fuels, ban all burns and so forth.

In other words, some of the same things that have been proposed every year for over a decade, with no awareness of the reasons they've been deemed unworkable every single time they've come up.

To their credit, I've yet to see a call for the org to pay for widening 447 yet. But I imagine it's just a matter of time.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Playa_Lover » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:23 am

Playa$kool changing its name?

I really like the Burning Man cultural restore/reset button that Marian has addressed. Camp Humano is out for this year, but are they? Will they still be here under the guise of a different name & theme? What about Play$kool? The unofficial vote is in (over the past months) & most burners outside of a few wealthy PnP loyalists & "The Fakulty", find PS intolerable & everything they represent.......... real & pretend. The new rumors are this, Playa$kool has rebranded itself into something calling itself,

Email:

"We cordially invite you to JOIN Daydream 2019  
We will be selecting 100 Dreamers to become inaugural members of The Daydream Group"

“Daydreaming is a lost art. Simply, it's something that we've just forgotten or stopped
practicing as part of the creative flow of life. We have forgotten the importance of pausing
for a moment to stare at the clouds with wonder as they drift by. To ask the simple
questions: how, why, when, what if?” - The Daydream Group

The former PS camp lead has taken precautions & there's no mention of camp prices or fees. They start with 100 invitations & what about next year? 300-400 hotel guests again paying up to $12K for a RV parking spot & a great European chef prepared breakfast? Garcon, I'll take my Black Rhino sausage medium rare & hold the strawberries with the champagne, S'il vous plaît!

My thoughts; I think the invitation (Do you think about me when you stare up at the moon?), sounds like a line from the movie, "Joe Dirt".

When someone steps in a pile of poo & calls the pile, caviar & truffles......it's still poo.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Playa_Lover » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:29 pm

Lonesomebri wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:07 pm
Meanwhile, on a page devoted to this very thing, Black Rock City Cultural Direction Setting, the solutions being pitched are more airplanes, a larger airport, opening up the rail depot south of BRC...
Stop the airport arrivals! Keep the airport open only for emergencies & official gov/ org business. Stop the OSS RV deliveries! Make everyone wait in Gate Line. Stop making this thing so convenient for a few select people & enabling the scumbag vultures to profit from them! Stop letting the worst offending Hotel Camps rebrand & hide their bullsh*t (PS) under a different banner and slogan. Stop the madness! Why aren't more of us offended?

Marian, please do more.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by BBadger » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:39 pm

Mass transit needs to go, especially air travel. I don't care if it results in more vehicle passes being used.

The very impression that a person can hop on a plane or bus to attend the event encourages PnP-camp attendance, because the inevitable question arises: "well, then who can provide my accommodations since I can't bring all that shit on a bus/plane?"

Needs to go.

I wonder how much things would improve by just forbidding air travel to the playa except for private aircraft owners that are not shuttling people? Anecdotally, a friend who did have to use the service did note a large bro quotient among the people attending via that method.
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Ano » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:34 pm

I'm very mixed about the bus, but the air travel has got to go. In case anyone isn't aware, the airport has a required acculturation checkpoint of sorts where they try to educate the people arriving via that route about the event... here's my take: if you need a fucking acculturation checkpoint to educate the people arriving via a certain route, maybe it isn't such a good idea to have said route.

Having volunteered at the airport in a certain capacity for the past few years (sans 2018) I have nothing but absolutely awful impressions from every single person who arrived via Burner Express Air, sans the two campmates I had who rode it for fun one year because it worked out. I've submitted a lot of feedback about it, but the airport express just continues to expand.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Token » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:24 am

He he he ...

Free Market Economy killed Burning Man.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Bless » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:21 pm

Ano wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:34 pm
I'm very mixed about the bus, but the air travel has got to go. In case anyone isn't aware, the airport has a required acculturation checkpoint of sorts where they try to educate the people arriving via that route about the event... here's my take: if you need a fucking acculturation checkpoint to educate the people arriving via a certain route, maybe it isn't such a good idea to have said route.

Having volunteered at the airport in a certain capacity for the past few years (sans 2018) I have nothing but absolutely awful impressions from every single person who arrived via Burner Express Air, sans the two campmates I had who rode it for fun one year because it worked out. I've submitted a lot of feedback about it, but the airport express just continues to expand.
Air travel is the only mode of transportation that helps dramatically relieve congestion on the highway. It's not going anywhere.
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by BBadger » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:50 pm

Bless wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:21 pm
Air travel is the only mode of transportation that helps dramatically relieve congestion on the highway. It's not going anywhere.
(note that this is not directed at you, but a general rant)

When you subsidize something you get more of it.

In this case, more people attending the event with the expectation that they can just show up and have their accommodations ready for them when they arrive. This is the expectation of every person taking a flight anywhere because you just can't carry much on a plane. That's the nature of it. You can't be radically self reliant (unless you own the plane, or the plane is huge).

So with easy travel locked down, and no real ability to bring anything yourself to the playa, the next thing people will look for are those accommodations on playa that they cannot bring. For people with no investment or connection to this event or friends, etc. to help out, this inevitably means something like a hotel camp. It's just the nature of it for anyone traveling somewhere by plane.

This is why air travel (and mass transit too) needs to go -- no matter what the consequences. Let there be congestion. It comes with attending an event like this. It should come with it. It's part of the journey, and some people simply won't be able to attend until they have done the real legwork to secure accommodations through their connections, or drive in themselves.

I actually think that if we eliminate mass transit we will not actually see that much more congestion. Why? Because the expectation will be that if you plan on attending, you must at the very least secure a ride in a manner that requires far more effort than boarding a plane or bus with your carry-on luggage.

It will kill off an entire cohort of people who really aren't ready to attend an event like this. Most are probably not bad people or burners, but the same goes for any population of people using a finite resource. They can go to Vegas or some other event, and I hope they have a good time there!

But no... the powers that be want to relieve congestion so that even more randos can just show up without even having to drive in.
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by motskyroonmatick » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:09 pm

BBadger wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:50 pm
Bless wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:21 pm
Air travel is the only mode of transportation that helps dramatically relieve congestion on the highway. It's not going anywhere.
(note that this is not directed at you, but a general rant)

When you subsidize something you get more of it.

In this case, more people attending the event with the expectation that they can just show up and have their accommodations ready for them when they arrive. This is the expectation of every person taking a flight anywhere because you just can't carry much on a plane. That's the nature of it. You can't be radically self reliant (unless you own the plane, or the plane is huge).

So with easy travel locked down, and no real ability to bring anything yourself to the playa, the next thing people will look for are those accommodations on playa that they cannot bring. For people with no investment or connection to this event or friends, etc. to help out, this inevitably means something like a hotel camp. It's just the nature of it for anyone traveling somewhere by plane.

This is why air travel (and mass transit too) needs to go -- no matter what the consequences. Let there be congestion. It comes with attending an event like this. It should come with it. It's part of the journey, and some people simply won't be able to attend until they have done the real legwork to secure accommodations through their connections, or drive in themselves.

I actually think that if we eliminate mass transit we will not actually see that much more congestion. Why? Because the expectation will be that if you plan on attending, you must at the very least secure a ride in a manner that requires far more effort than boarding a plane or bus with your carry-on luggage.

It will kill off an entire cohort of people who really aren't ready to attend an event like this. Most are probably not bad people or burners, but the same goes for any population of people using a finite resource. They can go to Vegas or some other event, and I hope they have a good time there!

But no... the powers that be want to relieve congestion so that even more randos can just show up without even having to drive in.
Are you saying transport solution implementations driven by desire to expand Burning Man Culture world wide has instead weakened Burning Man culture? If so I agree.
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Ano » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:58 pm

BBadger wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:50 pm

This is why air travel (and mass transit too) needs to go -- no matter what the consequences. Let there be congestion. It comes with attending an event like this. It should come with it. It's part of the journey, and some people simply won't be able to attend until they have done the real legwork to secure accommodations through their connections, or drive in themselves.

[snip]

But no... the powers that be want to relieve congestion so that even more randos can just show up without even having to drive in.
Unfortunately, traffic/congestion is an existential concern for Burning Man that is far larger than participant comfort.

There are a couple of things that the powers-that-be keep in their back pocket as a killswitch on the event. Traffic blocking the road for way too long is one of them, and the event already gets serious pushback from a lot of sources, all of whom use and/or manage aspects of 447, because of how we screw it up for a few weeks at a time with one spike before the event and then a near-total shutdown during exodus.

The bus takes hundreds of cars off the road... that's the thing. It's a demonstrable way to keep those-who-get-annoyed-easily a bit calmer. The consequence could be the end of Burning Man. Despite being a cash cow for the state (and others), there are plenty who would love to see it stop. I stand on the side of "crappy burn is better than no burn."

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Token » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:47 am

Ano wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:58 pm

Unfortunately, traffic/congestion is an existential concern for Burning Man that is far larger than participant comfort.
Though this is a true statement, it does not address the choice that is made by the Glitterati.

It was a choice to push the permit past 30K. It was a choice to push 50K. It is a stated choice to push past 70K.

Addressing the eroding culture is in fact addressing the quality of the experience.

Commodification of pretty much all the barriers to entry makes it all the more accessible for entitlement to become pervasive.

Not saying the bus isn’t a viable option. The way it is executed however is amateurish at best.

For an existential threat, there sure wasn’t much thought put into any kind of plan to make road congestion way better.

Lots of efficiency could be gained if an effort was made to stager entry instead of having the singular “Gate is Open” event.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Skuzzy61 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:04 am

One could also take it to a hub/spoke arrangement where people meet at a remote location with their stuff. Park their vehicles there, load their stuff into a freight truck, take the bus to the Playa and then deliver their stuff to them.

Just a thought.
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by John_Q_Public » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:22 am

I'm having a bit of an existential crisis today. Maybe all things have a life cycle. Is it our duty to fight hard to keep something we love alive or accept that growth and death are all part of the process? Both seem very noble and honor the culture in my head.

That said I am still going to fight hard to get a ticket and complain about how much better it was the year before...... :mrgreen:

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Ano » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:59 pm

Token wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:47 am

Lots of efficiency could be gained if an effort was made to stager entry instead of having the singular “Gate is Open” event.
Well, weekend WAPs are pretty easy to come by now, and lines start forming starting Thursday before the event. That's about as close as we'll get to staggered entry. However, to be truthful, the traffic concerns don't come from the opening of the event as much as they come from the closing. Opening is a huge issue, but it can be managed a lot easier due to turning a 1-lane thoroughfare into a 16-lane drain to suck traffic out of the main road. Beyond managing traffic flow to prevent stoppage between Gerlach and desert, there just isn't much else to do, other than mass transit options, to manage the 16 lanes of exodus shrinking back down to one.

If you're suggesting that the event somehow schedule attendee arrivals/departures to spread out traffic, that is one of the more unrealistic suggestions out there. There are far too many random factors between the dust and wherever it is people come from, and far too many things that are way outside of anyone's control that determine how long it takes to get to the event, and then comes the staffing concerns on the gate side, a department that has been admittedly and publicly understaffed for years now. It's one of the reasons why there isn't a northern exit for people turning right. And we aren't even getting into the honesty factor - you might be surprised (or not really surprised) at how many people try to sneak out P1 every year with "Im a VIP" arguments.

We could definitely do better to encourage better acculturation on the transit options, but there are already things happening in that regard. The airport people get an exclusive-to-airport shpiel along with extra brochures. The bus, IIRC, comes with a special acculturation brochure as well, of some sort...

It's one of those evils that is seemingly necessary at this time, kind of like OSS. OSS came about because rich camps were already doing OSS-like activities, except they were draining tickets from the event and causing traffic in the gate line. OSS manages to put a lid on that, in some regard. Now those people who are just driving in-and-out of the event to deliver shit get their own special pass, don't steal tickets from participants, and aren't clogging up the gate lanes.

I think the solutions are more off-playa than on-playa at this point. We need to encourage better attendees on the outset and we need to discourage shitty camps from attending. Adding in layers of bureaucracy to on-playa activities just generates headaches.

Like, exit passes. "You must exit between 1pm-5pm on this day." Alright, sure - and then my plans go haywire as fuck because of a dust storm that lasts 16 hours on Saturday, and then I can't tear down fast enough because it clears at 3pm on Sunday. Am I not allowed to leave at 7pm? I'm also contributing to the 6pm-11pm traffic, despite having a 1pm-5pm exit pass. Do they turn me around? Do I have to check in for a new pass? Or do they just let me through, thus somewhat negating the point of the exit pass in the first place?

Or, entrance pass for certain gate times... and then there's a rainstorm shutting down gate during my entry time. Do I just roll over to the next time? Do I go to ticketing.burningman.org and generate a new one? Am I fucked because Dr. Weather decided to have some fun that day?

I do think we should probably cap the event at 70k for the forseeable future, though. It's legit crowded at times on open playa and on the streets. 100k would be a nightmare.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Lonesomebri » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:06 pm

Meanwhile, over on the fb Culture Direction Setting page run by some placers, they've started banning those not respectful enough towards plug n plays. The struggle is real.
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by lucky420 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:16 pm

Lonesomebri wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:06 pm
Meanwhile, over on the fb Culture Direction Setting page run by some placers, they've started banning those not respectful enough towards plug n plays. The struggle is real.

How fucking stupid
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by BBadger » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:22 pm

Ano wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:58 pm
Unfortunately, traffic/congestion is an existential concern for Burning Man that is far larger than participant comfort.
I don't really believe this is really an existential concern except from the perspective that this event must continuously grow like economies/populations/etc. I also think that is a misplaced, unsustainable goal.

The event could simply "sell out" or simply be capped at a certain number of vehicles. The event would therefore be at maximum capacity, 100% utilized, and in zero risk of ceasing to exist. It would actually be at optimal capacity.

What will kill the event, or at least as we know it, is having its culture decay to the point that this event no longer distinguishes itself from other large-scale events, other than location. Part of that distinction is that attending the event requires more than just paying money.

That decay is not coming from camps like Humano or other rare, egregious examples of rich people attending the event. Those are just far and few distractions. There will always be people who can simply throw money at their trip to the desert and attend.

What is really killing this event are the swarms of nouveau riche/regular-people-with-even-moderate-means that are now able to gain access to the event by simply spending money. The impression that one can opt to go to Burning Man instead of Disneyland for a trip. No need to set up a tent that you brought in. No need to rent and drive in an RV. No need to network with friends and community to secure a ride. No real need to plan. Just show up and grab your rented bike and look at the sights, and then return back to your hotel after the day is over.

The first method of ending that kind of practice is to at least require people to drive themselves to the event or secure rides with shares or their own camp. It eliminates those who think they can just "book a ticket to Burning Man."
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Papa Bear » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:14 am

lucky420 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:16 pm
Lonesomebri wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:06 pm
Meanwhile, over on the fb Culture Direction Setting page run by some placers, they've started banning those not respectful enough towards plug n plays. The struggle is real.
How fucking stupid
It would be, if that was accurate. I strongly disagree with Lonesomebri's characterization of what's been going on over there.

That group was started with the intent of encouraging respectful and constructive discussion about what people valued about the event's culture, what they thought promoted it vs. what they thought weakened it, and what they'd like to see happen.

For the most part, that's what they got. There was plenty of healthy discussion, including lots of very critical comments about PnP practices. Further, where there was a difference of opinion, the participants generally kept their criticisms to the ideas, not the people making them. Those discussions eventually contributed to some of the various policy changes that have been announced, as well as to Marian's "course correction" post.

In some cases, those open discussions led to additional illumination of various controversial issues. For example, we learned that a practical reason behind allowing rental RV delivery via OSS was that unlicensed deliveries were already happening, causing issues with the BLM as well as problems at gate. Hearing that didn't convince people that allowing those deliveries via OSS was the right choice, but at least it let us discuss things with the fuller context, and talk about what other ways might be better to solve those problems.

The tone there has changed significantly since Marian's post. The group doubled in size in a little more than a week, and we've started to see more direct attacks on people, rather than practices or ideas. That's not what the group was intended for, and appears to be what the moderators running that group are trying to tamp down.

It's extremely unlikely that anyone is going to convince me or most of the other people on that group that PnPs are a good thing. But there are a lot of different definitions of Pnp, and I don't think all of them necessarily arise from a profit motive. Understanding what the motives and reasoning actually are behind those others is something I think is useful in figuring out how to prevent or counter the problematic practices.

So sure, I can absolutely understand why someone might not want to hear the perspective of the guy in charge of Playaskool, or the one in charge of a camp that did accept campers in pre-placed rental RVs, but wasn't necessarily what everyone would consider a PnP. But if you don't want to listen, then just don't read their posts - don't try to prevent them from speaking at all.

Further, suggesting that those of us who do want to listen to all voices and have a civil conversation about controversial ideas are somehow "astroturfing" for PnPs is total bullshit. Dismissing people entirely because they "use $5 words" is doesn't advance the discussion in any useful way, either.

That said, I do agree the mods there may have gone a little too far, if in fact they were the ones who deleted the "Hedge Hog" thread (I say "if" because for all I know, the original poster may have deleted it). While that thread did have a lot of useless personal garbage, there was also a thought-provoking subthread within it that I'd have liked to see preserved.
Last edited by Papa Bear on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by some seeing eye » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:00 am

To the size of the event, I suggested in my draft EIS input that 34 be widened to 3 lanes from the 447 Y to 8 mile.

That would provide a faster drain out of vehicles in an emergency where they could be staged on 447 N of the Y, and it better loads 447 N and S on exodus. Exodus falls under the Nevada State Patrol capacity limits on 34 and 447 South of the Y. I think that limit was 1000/hour, The BxB & BxA numbers are now in the afterburn report as the total of in and out so 2x the number of individuals involved.
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Re: Cultural Course Correcting post by Marian Goodell

Post by Papa Bear » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:12 am

BBadger wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:22 pm

What will kill the event, or at least as we know it, is having its culture decay to the point that this event no longer distinguishes itself from other large-scale events, other than location. Part of that distinction is that attending the event requires more than just paying money.

That decay is not coming from camps like Humano or other rare, egregious examples of rich people attending the event. Those are just far and few distractions. There will always be people who can simply throw money at their trip to the desert and attend.

What is really killing this event are the swarms of nouveau riche/regular-people-with-even-moderate-means that are now able to gain access to the event by simply spending money. The impression that one can opt to go to Burning Man instead of Disneyland for a trip. No need to set up a tent that you brought in. No need to rent and drive in an RV. No need to network with friends and community to secure a ride. No real need to plan. Just show up and grab your rented bike and look at the sights, and then return back to your hotel after the day is over.
For the record, I fully agree with this. But I don't think your conclusion is correct:
The first method of ending that kind of practice is to at least require people to drive themselves to the event or secure rides with shares or their own camp. It eliminates those who think they can just "book a ticket to Burning Man."
I get the principled argument that the org shouldn't do anything to make attending easier. But as with most things, what seems to be black and white is often really more about shades of gray, and about where you think the balance should lie between conflicting goals.

In this case, the conflict comes with the ability of people who have been or would be real contributors to the city to get tickets. There's far more demand than supply, and the easiest way to try to mitigate that is to increase the population. To do that requires reducing traffic on 447, and the bus is one way to do that.

If I thought the bus was really a prime enabler of what we're talking about, I'd be all for getting rid of it. But as I've detailed here before, everyone I've known who rode the bus, and everyone they've told me they talked to while riding it, were active participants. Sure, they weren't carrying everything they needed with them, but that's because they'd shipped out the rest of their stuff with a partner that came earlier, shipped it via a container program, or packed it on their camp's truck. That's not what I'd consider sightseers.

Now of course, that's anecdotal - we don't have any real data. And maybe my perspective is skewed because the people I've known who rode it tended to come Saturday or Sunday, rather than midweek, and later arrivals skew more toward PnPs. But I just don't see shutting down the bus as the first thing to do - I think it's wiser to focus first on the stuff that makes PnPs easier to run and be profitable (such as parts of the OSS program), and discourage camps that probably don't see themselves as PnPs from providing everything for some or all of their campers.

If that doesn't improve the situation, then I'd start taking a harder look at other steps to take, potentially including the bus.

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