10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

A forum for community conversation and deeper discussions about the cultural direction of Burning Man.
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some seeing eye
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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:17 pm

Elliot wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:01 pm
Anybody find such (GPE) details?
I'm very unhappy with the EIS. But we burners are a creative bunch, the opposite of bureaucrats. And we will work around and through much of the nonsense.

I don't know GPE, but I would expect more resources on perimeter because homie security, the three letter agencies, and who knows whatever entities, are paranoid and we had one breach. If I were in charge, which I'm not, I would put private security separate and front end on entry, followed by ticket validation-stowaway inspection, followed by greeters. There is a lot of idle speculation that one private festival security company Highrocksecurity might go for the private security role. Ticket validation/stowaway prevention is a core BMORG function which should never be outsourced, IMO.
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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:46 pm

If you spend the time to read all the supporting documents on the BLM site, it’s very easy to correlate the mitigation’s to the original problems various agencies are trying to solve.

Trash - that one is easy.

Jersey Barriers - DHS - no way to prevent a mass casualty vehicular event - I.e. terrorism fear.

Drug searching at gate - PCSO - they don’t have enough staff to enforce/process - remember, it’s Labor Day weekend for the whole country and they have a staff of 24 for the whole big-ass county.

Etc.

Sometimes we need to step back off our high horses and appreciate the real-world issues that surround our excursion to the flats.

Yeah, there is some silly stuff with light pollution ...

Now being able to process sexual assault in Gerlach instead of Reno - about fucking time!

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Molotov » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:38 pm

720 pages of public comments in Volume 2, many of which are virtually identical. Pages upon pages of dumpster, light pollution, and wild animal protection comments. BLM appears to have just given up replying to each, just referring the commenters over and over to a previously printed answer, many of which are vague and espouse the "company line". In court it would probably be called a "non-responsive answer"

My brain is numb...and I'm only on page 305. :roll:

And Appendix K lists each person who contributed a comment by first and last name and comment number. No hiding here and eliminates a lot FOIA requests asking "who said that?"

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:12 am

Molotov wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:38 pm
And Appendix K lists each person who contributed a comment by first and last name and comment number. No hiding here and eliminates a lot FOIA requests asking "who said that?"
The index in Appendix K has ~ half of the comments listed by name. ~ 1000

The remaining 1000 or so are marked as “withheld”

I’m surprised at the low number of comments. 2000 or so, once you pull out the few agencies and whatnot.

Considering the population, popularity, and demand for tickets ...

2.5% of the 80K annual cap voiced their opinion. I was hoping for 10% at least.

Quite telling on the “culture”.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by lucky420 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:22 am

Token wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:59 am
Darn, I was hoping for a rollback to 50K population cap ...

Bummer.
:coffee:
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by lucky420 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:25 am

some seeing eye wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:19 pm
I was able to do a quick scan. There is plenty of fodder for endless ePlaya discussion in it.

Here is an odd one, the combination of increasing the number of vehicle passes while keeping the population the same and increasing airport costs.

I would speculate without any inside information that BxB and BxA expansion was driven by factors: 1 - complying with Nevada highway patrol limits on vehicles per hour in anticipation of increasing the population cap. 2 - enabling fly-in burners.

I believe the EIS lifted the vehicle pass number from 27,000 to 35,000. (It is possible the extra 8,000 vehicle permits were already there, like the 10,000 staff and volunteer tickets.)

Because of the large number of commercial flights, NDOT is requiring full airport firefighting capability, a cost. And they are requiring some helicopter landing improvements. Why is it essential we need to land helicopters at all?

This would be a perfect opportunity to pause the growth of Bx* and reexamine the impact on culture.
Helicopters for medi-vac?
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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by some seeing eye » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:47 am

lucky420 wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:25 am
some seeing eye wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:19 pm
I was able to do a quick scan. There is plenty of fodder for endless ePlaya discussion in it.

Here is an odd one, the combination of increasing the number of vehicle passes while keeping the population the same and increasing airport costs.

I would speculate without any inside information that BxB and BxA expansion was driven by factors: 1 - complying with Nevada highway patrol limits on vehicles per hour in anticipation of increasing the population cap. 2 - enabling fly-in burners.

I believe the EIS lifted the vehicle pass number from 27,000 to 35,000. (It is possible the extra 8,000 vehicle permits were already there, like the 10,000 staff and volunteer tickets.)

Because of the large number of commercial flights, NDOT is requiring full airport firefighting capability, a cost. And they are requiring some helicopter landing improvements. Why is it essential we need to land helicopters at all?

This would be a perfect opportunity to pause the growth of Bx* and reexamine the impact on culture.
Helicopters for medi-vac?
My understanding is that medivac now is done by fixed wing aircraft and ground ambulances. Knowledgable ESD experience is welcome.

The issue is that the rotor wash stirs up the dust. In the past there were 2 helipads, Point 5 and I believe Point .5. Now NDOT in the EIS is demanding:

"Dust free operating areas are recommended for the loading and unloading of
passengers where aircraft are frequently started or shut down. This is highly
recommended for helicopter operators and those associated FATO's. Hard
operational surfaces (dust free) such as mats, plates, or temporary concrete pads
could provide close helicopter access to the event for EMS purposes. The
helicopter operator has been operating from hard surfaces in Gerlach to obtain
favorable dust free environmental conditions, however heliports could be set up
adjacent to the event perimeter with proper preparation.
N/A The FEIS has been revised to include a new mitigation
measure, TRAN-4, to address this concern."

This is my concern: https://www.businessinsider.com/burning ... des-2016-9
Last edited by some seeing eye on Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by lucky420 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:02 am

Gotcha and agreed ^^
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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Elliot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:06 am

A couple suggestions for those who have not invested hours in this already....

The important Appendix E starts on page 275 and runs only nine pages. And you can scroll thru quite a bit of it before that.

But do pay attention to what you are skimming thru.
I'm no legal eagle, but it is my impression that nothing is ever simply deleted from legal documents. Deletions instead become strike-thru. (Like this.) That way, a complete record of the matter will always be available. But it means a lot of skimming before we arrive at the final decisions.

And after E, there appears to be nothing critical. Public Comments begin on 331 and runs to the end, as Molotov mentioned.
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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Luigi » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:15 am

Token wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:59 am
Darn, I was hoping for a rollback to 50K population cap ...

Bummer.
I too was hoping for a 50k cap. It solved most of the issues.
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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:02 pm

Luigi wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:15 am
Token wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:59 am
Darn, I was hoping for a rollback to 50K population cap ...

Bummer.
I too was hoping for a 50k cap. It solved most of the issues.
Exactly!

At the end of the day, the BORG driving for constant growth instead of sustainability has exacerbated all the problems that triggered the outlandish mitigation proposals.

With a cap of 50K the whole shindig goes back to manageable personnel levels for LEO and BLM, the road situation goes back to C load instead of D/E, etc.

I’m guessing greed is also an important factor in all this.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:59 pm

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by ygmir » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:40 am

Token wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:02 pm
Luigi wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:15 am
Token wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:59 am
Darn, I was hoping for a rollback to 50K population cap ...

Bummer.
I too was hoping for a 50k cap. It solved most of the issues.
Exactly!

At the end of the day, the BORG driving for constant growth instead of sustainability has exacerbated all the problems that triggered the outlandish mitigation proposals.

With a cap of 50K the whole shindig goes back to manageable personnel levels for LEO and BLM, the road situation goes back to C load instead of D/E, etc.

I’m guessing greed is also an important factor in all this.
guessing...
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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:51 am

ygmir wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:40 am
Token wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:02 pm
Luigi wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:15 am


I too was hoping for a 50k cap. It solved most of the issues.
Exactly!

At the end of the day, the BORG driving for constant growth instead of sustainability has exacerbated all the problems that triggered the outlandish mitigation proposals.

With a cap of 50K the whole shindig goes back to manageable personnel levels for LEO and BLM, the road situation goes back to C load instead of D/E, etc.

I’m guessing greed is also an important factor in all this.
guessing...
On all sides except the PCSO ... they simply get screwed every year.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by some seeing eye » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:35 am

Token wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:51 am
On all sides except the PCSO ... they simply get screwed every year.
No, PCSO has screwed themselves.

The sheriff and the commissioners have latched onto Burning Man as the enemy to get votes rather than focusing on their people's own needs the rest of the year. It is a common political tactic, local to international. It's usually the bad guys who make that play: Xi, Putin, Trump, Brexit leaders, Duerte, Maduro, the list goes on.

The way the court agreement was structured, the PCSO is incentivized to make nuisance citations to make money. More staff and private security front ending it means more money, not more organic value to the participants. And PCO/PCSO self-assumed victimhood has now bitten the BORG because the EIS process took that victimhood (as well as the hallucinatory dreams of three letter agencies) at face value.

Forget PCSO. It is up to burners to intervene in bad burner behavior, in our camps, at camps, open playa, and in the city, in the moment.
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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:41 pm

some seeing eye wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:35 am
Token wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:51 am
On all sides except the PCSO ... they simply get screwed every year.
No, PCSO has screwed themselves.

The sheriff and the commissioners have latched onto Burning Man as the enemy to get votes rather than focusing on their people's own needs the rest of the year. It is a common political tactic, local to international. It's usually the bad guys who make that play: Xi, Putin, Trump, Brexit leaders, Duerte, Maduro, the list goes on.

The way the court agreement was structured, the PCSO is incentivized to make nuisance citations to make money. More staff and private security front ending it means more money, not more organic value to the participants. And PCO/PCSO self-assumed victimhood has now bitten the BORG because the EIS process took that victimhood (as well as the hallucinatory dreams of three letter agencies) at face value.

Forget PCSO. It is up to burners to intervene in bad burner behavior, in our camps, at camps, open playa, and in the city, in the moment.
SSE, I love you dearly, but that is some crazy conspiracy stuff.

Come on out and live in the sticks for a while.

When you have a small population spread out over a large area, a budget so tight you couldn’t staff street-sweepers in a suburb, you count every resource you got like it’s pure gold.

It’s a holiday weekend for their whole county, and a big one for that matter - end of the RV season.

The problems for the PCSO are real.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:01 pm

One of the commissioners for PC even brought up the possibility of a land swap with Washoe county at their meeting not long ago. Put BM in Washoe as they have staff to handle it.

It was posted on the RGJ paywall a while back.

It ain’t no conspiracy, real problem for PC.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by some seeing eye » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:15 pm

I respect your contributions and experience on ePlaya/on Playa. Some of our ePlayans share outback experience.

I can't understand the fear that accompanies the joy of country living. Maybe if I was you I would be concerned. If that's your fear, I would not deny it.

We have had fear in rural Tea Party counties which declined to pay taxes to fund law enforcement in Oregon. That fear is real. The counties also declined to fund schools. We have had law enforcement in those counties publicly say "if you are fearful of a domestic abuser at your door with a gun, get a gun, we are hours out if ever."

Black Rock City is one of the safest places in the world. Personally I believe that burners can ensure that, no fear necessary.

To your comment, bottom line: PCSO assigned patrol responsibility in BRC is completely different than their rural responsibilities.

In my opinion, PCSO should focus their BRC mission solely on person on person crime: rape, sexual assault, assault, theft and the like. After they prove results, we can negotiate expansion of responsibility the community requests.

But I would also say that the BMORG needs to make a lovefest with PCSO and PCO.

A land swap would be lovely!
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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:06 pm

Oh, it’s easy to pick extreme cases pretty much anywhere. Stereotyping can be misleading. We are all people at the end of the day.

That’s not the point.

Negotiations require a certain amount of faith that all sides have reasonable concerns that should be accommodated in some way.

The path forward is understanding and collective effort.

All I’m bringing about is that we shouldn’t be dismissive of stated concerns nor should we look for ulterior nefarious motives.

Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by maladroit » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:51 am

Token wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:06 pm
Negotiations require a certain amount of faith that all sides have reasonable concerns that should be accommodated in some way.
This should not be blind faith, however. At some point during negotiations you may realize that you are expending all the effort to try to understand the other side's concerns, while at the same time they are dismissing all of yours. You cannot cling to the idea "We are negotiating, therefore they must have valid concerns" if they do not continue in good faith. It is OK for negotiations to fail, and to divert that energy toward protecting yourself rather than continually giving ground.
Token wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:06 pm
All I’m bringing about is that we shouldn’t be dismissive of stated concerns nor should we look for ulterior nefarious motives.
Negotiations imply some established level of conflict, and it's an extremely good idea to remain guarded against ulterior motives. Negotiations can always be a distraction technique while your opponent is working on an alternate solution that requires no compromise on their part.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:29 pm

maladroit wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:51 am
Token wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:06 pm
Negotiations require a certain amount of faith that all sides have reasonable concerns that should be accommodated in some way.
This should not be blind faith, however. At some point during negotiations you may realize that you are expending all the effort to try to understand the other side's concerns, while at the same time they are dismissing all of yours. You cannot cling to the idea "We are negotiating, therefore they must have valid concerns" if they do not continue in good faith. It is OK for negotiations to fail, and to divert that energy toward protecting yourself rather than continually giving ground.
Token wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:06 pm
All I’m bringing about is that we shouldn’t be dismissive of stated concerns nor should we look for ulterior nefarious motives.
Negotiations imply some established level of conflict, and it's an extremely good idea to remain guarded against ulterior motives. Negotiations can always be a distraction technique while your opponent is working on an alternate solution that requires no compromise on their part.
Oh gee, I had no idea! I thought it was all altruism and unicorns! <— notice the sarcasm font :)

Yeah, universal truths in some abstract sense there M.

This particular case however, with the PCSO and PC being one of the primary drivers of the tension ( the tribal council being in the mix as well ), the data, numbers, reasons are pretty black n white.

Most of the other items could be handled by the BORG if they choose to do so, be it via the community or good governance.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:30 pm

Almost a week since the EIS has been published and not a peep from the BORG.

Did I miss something?

I’m really itching for something profound from the Glitterati.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by dpsrch » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:33 pm


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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:36 pm

Right On! Thanks.

So it seems the fighting words are the private security doing gate screenings.

Everything else is either: “we already do that” or “we will deal with it”.

All that hoopla for a whole bunch of nothing.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by wraith » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:31 am

Token wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:46 pm
If you spend the time to read all the supporting documents on the BLM site, it’s very easy to correlate the mitigation’s to the original problems various agencies are trying to solve.

Trash - that one is easy.

Jersey Barriers - DHS - no way to prevent a mass casualty vehicular event - I.e. terrorism fear.

Drug searching at gate - PCSO - they don’t have enough staff to enforce/process - remember, it’s Labor Day weekend for the whole country and they have a staff of 24 for the whole big-ass county.

Etc.

Sometimes we need to step back off our high horses and appreciate the real-world issues that surround our excursion to the flats.

Yeah, there is some silly stuff with light pollution ...

Now being able to process sexual assault in Gerlach instead of Reno - about fucking time!
The chances of BM being targeted for a mass attack that wasn't seen coming are so slim that you would be statistically more likely to freeze to death on the Playa mid-day.

However there are no doubt several three letter agencies feverishly planning how to terrorist proof one of the most remote areas of the country, simply because they have to justify their own budget somehow and actual threats outside of right-wing domestic terrorism are too thin on the ground to drum up popular support.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Token » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:28 am

wraith wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:31 am
Token wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:46 pm
If you spend the time to read all the supporting documents on the BLM site, it’s very easy to correlate the mitigation’s to the original problems various agencies are trying to solve.

Trash - that one is easy.

Jersey Barriers - DHS - no way to prevent a mass casualty vehicular event - I.e. terrorism fear.

Drug searching at gate - PCSO - they don’t have enough staff to enforce/process - remember, it’s Labor Day weekend for the whole country and they have a staff of 24 for the whole big-ass county.

Etc.

Sometimes we need to step back off our high horses and appreciate the real-world issues that surround our excursion to the flats.

Yeah, there is some silly stuff with light pollution ...

Now being able to process sexual assault in Gerlach instead of Reno - about fucking time!
The chances of BM being targeted for a mass attack that wasn't seen coming are so slim that you would be statistically more likely to freeze to death on the Playa mid-day.

However there are no doubt several three letter agencies feverishly planning how to terrorist proof one of the most remote areas of the country, simply because they have to justify their own budget somehow and actual threats outside of right-wing domestic terrorism are too thin on the ground to drum up popular support.
Those three letter agencies, formed through whatever rational or irrational paths, they got jobs to do. Want to change that? Vote.

Mass Casualty prevention is woven into all layers.

Easy for folks to complain about the nuisance until a Vegas or Oklahoma City happens, then it’s all about “how did they not see this coming”.

Remoteness has nothing to do with crazy. We had our share on-Playa. Could have been allot worse.

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by Simon of the Playa » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:54 am

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Re: 10 Yr Environmental Impact Statement (Includes Relating to Culture)

Post by BrotherNomad » Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:16 am

Token wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:12 am
Molotov wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:38 pm
And Appendix K lists each person who contributed a comment by first and last name and comment number. No hiding here and eliminates a lot FOIA requests asking "who said that?"
The index in Appendix K has ~ half of the comments listed by name. ~ 1000

The remaining 1000 or so are marked as “withheld”

I’m surprised at the low number of comments. 2000 or so, once you pull out the few agencies and whatnot.

Considering the population, popularity, and demand for tickets ...

2.5% of the 80K annual cap voiced their opinion. I was hoping for 10% at least.

Quite telling on the “culture”.
Was I excused as in the months leading up to the EIS deadline, I was heartbroken for love. Not even caring about BRC or The Culture, as the only thing that matters for me is to fall in love. Not enjoying anything because I don’t have a Mate to enjoy life with. Was I excused as I cry to having what Two Boys Kissing have all these years.

Please don’t delete this or block me, as this is written in tears.

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