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Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:48 am
by wraith
Dirkadirka wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:04 am
wraith wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:06 am
If you can't see how viewing everything through the filter of a screen interferes with immediacy, or how little participation comes out of the people roaming to get the best selfies for Instagram, I can't make it happen for you.

If you also can't see how radical self-expression is changed when anything outside the norm can be on Facebook, tagged to your friends and family, or posted up as involuntary pornography from the event itself, I have to assume you are too young to remember a world before smartphones. Or just terribly naive. :mrgreen:

Getting cell service onto the playa has rendered the media policy impossible to enforce.

Sounds like you’re making a case against cameras in general. That is a different discussion. I was commenting on phones being used for their camera function being singled out amongst the amateur photographers of brc. Not everyone owns a digital camera in addition to the one included on their smartphone.
Cameras registered with the Org as press per the media policy? No problem. That One Asshole who feels the need to film literally everything on his tablet-sized smartphone so everyone behind him has to watch whatever's going on through it because he's holding it over his head, or the guy transparently just there to be a voyeur? Problem.

Phones compound the problem because they can publish from the playa.
Simon of the Playa wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:29 am
radically self reliant people from far away lands using “public transportation” should not be singled out for bullshit ridicule.
No ridicule for the people, I'm legitimately curious because a bunch of people expecting a bus that never comes and working with very limited available pack-in space is a disaster looking for a dust storm to set it off. I'm sure there's a bugout plan, but I know I wouldn't be willing to take that route in because I would hate to be that guy reliant on someone else to save my bacon if things get iffy and exodus stretches.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:03 am
by Simon of the Playa
i see your points about being radically reliant on a bus service into the playa.

i’ve taken a train from the east, and hitchhiked in from reno a couple of times.

i’ve hitched out too, but those were different times, with different logistics, and numbers.

if there is a monster storm, we will all be in it together, kids, and hence, no one gets out.

but i’ll make this note:

having taken the BE bus a couple of times, at first i was skeptical, but after seeing the burners haul all their shit including garbage BACK to the bus
and help load up in difficult situations after an exhausting week kinda warmed the cockles of my dusty heart.

most of the riders seemed to “get it”.

just my opinion, and that was changed by actually doing it one year because i had to.

yes, you can teach an old desert dog new tricks sometimes

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:53 pm
by Eric
Sham wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:58 pm
So there is no confusion or ambiguity, the remote, off the grid location of the Black Rock Desert makes this area absolutely ideal for police to train on the use of their Stingray monitoring devices.
Note: Sham knows his phones. This is not hyperbole or a conspiracy theory. BRC is where LEO tests their toys (and collects the Idiot Tax)

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:19 pm
by jcliff
Simon of the Playa wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:10 am
i think what we need is a great equalizer.

it’s called dust.
Yes! This has been my thought for several years. We need the playa to cull the herd. Because the "haves" have access to dust-proof sanctuaries, we're gonna need a few days of hellacious brown-outs combined with rain. Total vehicle ground stop....no porto servicing, no RV servicing, no getting out of Black Rock City. We're gonna need at least 72 hours of the worst case scenario to reset our Burning Man clientele.

I host a Lamplighter Noobie/Vet Scavenger hunt every year and I frame it as a test of our noobies' ability to survive on playa if/when the shit hits the fan. If you can scavenge a 1980's Playgirl magazine from a camp, you MAY have what it takes to keep us alive when it gets real.

We also need more subversion. I will hold off from offering specifics on this, but camps that offer pre-packaged vacations should be holding onto their hats at all times. BRC monkey business is alive and well....let's get it to where it needs to go?

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:24 am
by Simon of the Playa
DUST FUCKOS UNITE

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:09 am
by Token
Riding Mowers are a fantastic base for an MV or disabled vehicle placard owners.

Make it happen!

Besides, Culture Jamming is at the heart of the ethos...

Image

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:14 pm
by Dr awkwarD
Here's an idea:

You know what's wrong with BRC? The location.

If we really want to bring BRC back to its roots, take it off playa.

I'm serious: move it somewhere new. Montana? South Dakota? Texas? There's plenty of open land in the country (and the world!), and moving it out of driving range of the San Francisco weekend warriors would force people to make some hard choices.

There seems to be consensus that "the dust storm of the century" is needed to add some hardship and challenge. Force the cream to rise to the top, and shake out the sparkleponies. Why wait? Add the challenge ourselves! Take it somewhere new!

When the event is no longer convenient for California Insta-hos and Tech-bros to throw a duffel bag into the trunk of their Tesla and plague our event, only the people who are committed will be there.

Having problems with SF tech-bros? Gerlach cops? The Nevada Burning Man Tax? Impact to the playa? This solves all of it.

Burning Man has been held in other places before. Maybe it's time for it to be in new places again...

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:45 pm
by some seeing eye
Dr awkwarD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:14 pm
Here's an idea:

You know what's wrong with BRC? The location.

If we really want to bring BRC back to its roots, take it off playa.

I'm serious: move it somewhere new. Montana? South Dakota? Texas? There's plenty of open land in the country (and the world!), and moving it out of driving range of the San Francisco weekend warriors would force people to make some hard choices.

There seems to be consensus that "the dust storm of the century" is needed to add some hardship and challenge. Force the cream to rise to the top, and shake out the sparkleponies. Why wait? Add the challenge ourselves! Take it somewhere new!

When the event is no longer convenient for California Insta-hos and Tech-bros to throw a duffel bag into the trunk of their Tesla and plague our event, only the people who are committed will be there.

Having problems with SF tech-bros? Gerlach cops? The Nevada Burning Man Tax? Impact to the playa? This solves all of it.

Burning Man has been held in other places before. Maybe it's time for it to be in new places again...
Hahaha. Today's BM culture is formed around Nevada law, particularly around alcohol hours. Once you have to enforce alcohol hours, you are in a whole new realm of even more intensive law enforcement. There are places in Louisiana, casinos and Native American lands (unlikely because we tried to poison them) with different law enforcement regimes. The other circumstance of the playa is its fire resistance. The best option would be some kind of law-free Waterworld, or the small island government you could buy out like Fyre. Both projects were epic fails. Law is an invisible hand. It is loved when needed, and a PITA other times. It is an odd play-doh with roots in the American psyche most people don't realize.
.

Image

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:13 pm
by Token
BORG: The JOTS are trashed, the pumps are breaking, help us!

Burners: You bet, we will mobilize, educate, get it done.

BORG: OMG it’s so big! We need volunteers! Help us!

Burners: That’s us! Sign me up!

BORG: LEO is harshing our mellow, we need Law Enforcement Interraction forms filled. Help us!

Burners: On it! Who has a pen?

BORG: BLM wants to rape us on fees and stupid tax. Help us!

Burners: We are sending in our letters, SantaConning the meetings. We got your back.

.

Etc.

.

Burners: Can we please have a fair ticketing process?

BORG: We are doing our best (giggles). The server is overloaded (snort). We sell out bitches! Hold my beer.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:23 pm
by lucky420
Token wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:13 pm
BORG: The JOTS are trashed, the pumps are breaking, help us!

Burners: You bet, we will mobilize, educate, get it done.

BORG: OMG it’s so big! We need volunteers! Help us!

Burners: That’s us! Sign me up!

BORG: LEO is harshing our mellow, we need Law Enforcement Interraction forms filled. Help us!

Burners: On it! Who has a pen?

BORG: BLM wants to rape us on fees and stupid tax. Help us!

Burners: We are sending in our letters, SantaConning the meetings. We got your back.

.

Etc.

.

Burners: Can we please have a fair ticketing process?

BORG: We are doing our best (giggles). The server is overloaded (snort). We sell out bitches! Hold my beer.
Yep

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:09 pm
by Bless
Token wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:13 pm
BORG: The JOTS are trashed, the pumps are breaking, help us!

Burners: You bet, we will mobilize, educate, get it done.

BORG: OMG it’s so big! We need volunteers! Help us!

Burners: That’s us! Sign me up!

BORG: LEO is harshing our mellow, we need Law Enforcement Interraction forms filled. Help us!

Burners: On it! Who has a pen?

BORG: BLM wants to rape us on fees and stupid tax. Help us!

Burners: We are sending in our letters, SantaConning the meetings. We got your back.

.

Etc.

.

Burners: Can we please have a fair ticketing process?

BORG: We are doing our best (giggles). The server is overloaded (snort). We sell out bitches! Hold my beer.
As the saying goes: shit rolls down hill

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:19 pm
by Eric
Dr awkwarD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:14 pm
If we really want to bring BRC back to its roots, take it off playa.
You do realize that would be taking it back to SF, right? SF is its roots. It was founded by people from SF, it was nurtured by people from SF, the formative years were freaks & what we now call techies from the SF Bay area. You're bagging a whole lot on SF & techies in your post, but without them this event simply wouldn't exist. Period. Fuck, one of the founders and most prominent faces of Burning Man to this day is a "techie", though you'd never guess from looking at or talking to them.

Also, it's been on-playa since 1990, the playa is where this thing we love swelled and took shape. The playa is its roots as well. No where on earth can claim to be the roots of BMan other than those two spots.

Now, you want to shatter the event, get rid of the Big Burn in Nevada & create a bunch of smaller Burns all over? I'm honestly not opposed to that, but bashing the city it was originally founded in & the people and culture it came out of serves no purpose other than to be, pardon my English, a twit.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:34 pm
by BrotherNomad
jcliff wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:19 pm
Simon of the Playa wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:10 am
i think what we need is a great equalizer.

it’s called dust.
Yes! This has been my thought for several years. We need the playa to cull the herd. Because the "haves" have access to dust-proof sanctuaries, we're gonna need a few days of hellacious brown-outs combined with rain. Total vehicle ground stop....no porto servicing, no RV servicing, no getting out of Black Rock City. We're gonna need at least 72 hours of the worst case scenario to reset our Burning Man clientele.

...
Yes! I have a theory that if a supertanker dropped lines of water onto BRC in the afternoon it would create microclimates that would create hi & low pressure cells that would hijack BRC weather pattens, causing sustained hellacious brown outs. If theres moisture in the clouds, multiple 2014-like rainstoms one after another onto everyone in BRC.

Also, were statistically due for another condition alpha during BRC, and I hope we get it this year.

Here is something which is completely in our control: lets kick up MORE dust any way we can & will!

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:08 pm
by FlyingMonkey
Eric wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:19 pm
Dr awkwarD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:14 pm
If we really want to bring BRC back to its roots, take it off playa.

Now, you want to shatter the event, get rid of the Big Burn in Nevada & create a bunch of smaller Burns all over?
You mean those insignificant Regional Burns that still have the Burny magic that the Playa has lost?

Or.....(tapping temple with smarty finger)....maybe the regional Burns are what Burning Man was intended to evolve in to anyway. Maybe if we keep taking the Burn to the Default world The Burn becomes unnecessary......

Hell yeah!

I still like Nevada's Regional Burn, but the little Burns have so much to offer.

I'll continue to go to as many as I can but to be honest Burning Man started losing his mojo long before I was able to attend. A victim of it's own success I suppose.

If I ever have to make that hard choice (I hope I don't) I'll hang out with real Burners over PnP VIPs & Instasham drones who get their daily affirmations from their subscriber counts any day.

Can I get an Amen Fuck Yer Day?

Sorry Eric, Much love & respect, but I don't think the little Burns should be disparaged. A lot of good people make them happen & they are fantastic. The Big Burn is still the Daddy-O but it ain't the only game in town. Especially for anyone East of the Mississippi.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:27 pm
by Eric
FlyingMonkey wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:08 pm
Eric wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:19 pm
Dr awkwarD wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:14 pm
If we really want to bring BRC back to its roots, take it off playa.

Now, you want to shatter the event, get rid of the Big Burn in Nevada & create a bunch of smaller Burns all over?
You mean those insignificant Regional Burns that still have the Burny magic that the Playa has lost?

Or.....(tapping temple with smarty finger)....maybe the regional Burns are what Burning Man was intended to evolve in to anyway. Maybe if we keep taking the Burn to the Default world The Burn becomes unnecessary......
{snip}
Sorry Eric, Much love & respect, but I don't think the little Burns should be disparaged. A lot of good people make them happen & they are fantastic. The Big Burn is still the Daddy-O but it ain't the only game in town. Especially for anyone East of the Mississippi.
If you had quoted the very next sentence in my post you'd see I wasn't disparaging Regionals, and that I have no problem with them becoming the primary type of Burn:
Eric wrote:I'm honestly not opposed to that
Being in SF the Big Burn is our Regional, but I wish that weren't true. I'd love a smaller, more local Burn as an option for us (other local events do help with that, even though they are completely unrelated to the Burn except some cross-over in people)

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:51 pm
by Dirkadirka
Eric wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:27 pm
Being in SF the Big Burn is our Regional, but I wish that weren't true. I'd love a smaller, more local Burn as an option for us (other local events do help with that, even though they are completely unrelated to the Burn except some cross-over in people)
This isn’t true. UnScruz is an official regional which takes place next weekend. I haven’t been but I hear it’s a fantastic event.

Wish granted.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:17 pm
by Eric
Dirkadirka wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:51 pm
Wish granted.
Santa Cruz isn't SF - it's not even in the SF Bay Area! :lol:

muttermutterLumpingUsInWithTheCentralCoastmuttermutter

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:41 am
by Dirkadirka
Eric wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:17 pm
Santa Cruz isn't SF - it's not even in the SF Bay Area! :lol:

muttermutterLumpingUsInWithTheCentralCoastmuttermutter
Depends on your definition of “area.” It doesn’t border the SF bay, I’ll give you that.
Eric wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:27 pm
Being in SF the Big Burn is our Regional, but I wish that weren't true. I'd love a smaller, more local Burn as an option for us
Pretty sure SC is “more local” to SF than Black Rock City by at least a few miles. :wink:

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:03 am
by Dr awkwarD
While I recognize that the Big Burn was founded by people from SF, and there are many fine people residing in said city, I'm suggesting that our current location isn't sustainable from either end. I don't have anything against SF in particular or techies (being one myself). What I do see an issue with is how low the barrier to entry is, being in easy proximity to a very large city, and the environmental and cultural impact that we're having because of it.

There are zero of the Ten Principles that have anything to do with the playa. The success of regional burns even prove that our culture thrives in the face of change. In fact, if you want to push it, you could argue that due to the environmental impact we seem to be having, Leave No Trace demands that we consider moving on.

And yes, I get it that it's always been there, was better last year, has been built on the backs of giants, etc. etc. I put forth, however, that this is exactly why it needs to move. We have no problem with slaying societies' sacred cows at our event; maybe it's time we turned the blade on our own. If we're concerned that our culture is stagnating, and we want to bring new blood, move the Big Burn to Utah or Montana or New Mexico. Make it too far to get to casually, and only the people who really want to be there will be.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:28 am
by Jackass
And then deal with the resulting shakedown that will occur with all new law enforcement agencies that have never been dealt with before? This event has dealt with and negotiated with local authorities for nearly 30 years to lay the ground work to get us to where we are today. Nobody is going to let BRC happen in it's current form anywhere in the states without harassment and serious taxation. It would be like starting all over again, and with these population levels, and expectations it would not be an easy or even doable task...

A gigantic pit mine might be the only place BRC could do what it does, and then you have a big hole in the ground where large falls would be commonplace. Nobody would want BRC's liability and nearly every other type of terrain would be more fragile and susceptible to damage than the playa.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:03 pm
by Token
The Hat said it long time ago; the future of BM will live and grow through the regionals.

BRC has reached its peak long ago.

Whether it was 20K, 35K, 50K people ... up for debate, but the original magic of remoteness, toughness, isolation ... gone for good.

Maybe MM needs to listen to things Larry said way back and take a hint.

Stop growing the darn thing and make it sustainable.

You got Fly Ranch to dream up, do your stick there. Let BM return back to BM.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:04 pm
by Eric
Token wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:03 pm
Stop growing the darn thing and make it sustainable.

You got Fly Ranch to dream up, do your stick there. Let BM return back to BM.
So much this.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:42 am
by ygmir
Eric wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:04 pm
Token wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:03 pm
Stop growing the darn thing and make it sustainable.

You got Fly Ranch to dream up, do your stick there. Let BM return back to BM.
So much this.
TESTIFY!

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:40 am
by Luigi
To get back to Capt's original post - the org has made it too easy - why? It's a business and business needs to grow. The leadership is making big salaries.

https://www.rgj.com/story/life/arts/bur ... 376086002/

The BLM is the only thing in the way of growth and the org does not like it.

50,000 people max. 25,000 vehicles passes. No outside services. No commercial bus or air. Make it Hard to go.

Shut down the cell towers.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:59 pm
by wraith
Dr awkwarD wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:03 am
While I recognize that the Big Burn was founded by people from SF, and there are many fine people residing in said city, I'm suggesting that our current location isn't sustainable from either end. I don't have anything against SF in particular or techies (being one myself). What I do see an issue with is how low the barrier to entry is, being in easy proximity to a very large city, and the environmental and cultural impact that we're having because of it.

There are zero of the Ten Principles that have anything to do with the playa. The success of regional burns even prove that our culture thrives in the face of change. In fact, if you want to push it, you could argue that due to the environmental impact we seem to be having, Leave No Trace demands that we consider moving on.

And yes, I get it that it's always been there, was better last year, has been built on the backs of giants, etc. etc. I put forth, however, that this is exactly why it needs to move. We have no problem with slaying societies' sacred cows at our event; maybe it's time we turned the blade on our own. If we're concerned that our culture is stagnating, and we want to bring new blood, move the Big Burn to Utah or Montana or New Mexico. Make it too far to get to casually, and only the people who really want to be there will be.
I sometimes get the feeling that the SF crowd is so used to the utterly unsustainable existence that is living in SF that they don't really get that eternal upwards trends are not a thing in the real world.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:21 pm
by Token
SF was soooo 20 years ago.

All the cool kids moved to Oakland.

And now even Oakland is getting gentrified to the max.

Before you know it, everyone will be next to the refineries in Richmond.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:52 pm
by Eric
Token wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:21 pm
Before you know it, everyone will be next to the refineries in Richmond.
Even Crockett & Port Costa are getting expensive. Good lord.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:45 pm
by thnkfl
"50,000 people max. 25,000 vehicles passes. No outside services. No commercial bus or air. Make it Hard to go.
Shut down the cell towers."

I am 100% with Luigi on this.

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:41 am
by Simon of the Playa
“shut down the cell towers”


i made this a few years ago when the towers went up..

93955367-829F-45C1-8C12-714304ACDD46.jpeg

Re: The basic problem with modern BRC

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:32 am
by Popeye
thnkfl wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:45 pm
"50,000 people max. 25,000 vehicles passes. No outside services. No commercial bus or air. Make it Hard to go.
Shut down the cell towers."
OK, but you will not have even aproximately the same level of "hardness" for everyone, and the degree of "hardness" will be determined by distance and whether or not you can Burn from a distance will be more and more determined by how much money you make. Think about the tremendous cost of bringing an art project from New York or Alaska, France or Hong Kong. Even for one individual to fly to Reno and spend a day or two buying food and whatever adds tremendously to cost. With no bus available you need to add the cost of renting a car and letting it sit for a week.
Please don't tell me that I can ride share in. That has its own problems.
I believe that ideas from overseas, East Coast, someplace other than California, Oregon, Washington are important to the cultural growth and spread of Burning Man. Think about what you have learned just camping next to someone from Australia. Did you learn anything?

If you want to make it "harder" to go then do away with cell phones and RV's.